Katrina Response Mismanagement [Archive]

Gn2Dlnd

09-03-2005, 05:36 PM

Audio of Nagin interview (http://www.atypical.net/mm/nagin.mp3)

CNN airs WWL Radio interview with New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin

This is a rush transcript and may not be in its final format.

RAY NAGIN, MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS: I told him we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we're out-manned in just about every respect.

You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people that were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. When you pull off the doggone ventilator vent and you look down there and they're standing in there in water up to their freaking necks.

And they don't have a clue what's going on down here. They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed.

GARLAND ROBINETTE, WWL CORRESPONDENT: Did you say to the president of the United States, "I need the military in here"?

NAGIN: I said, "I need everything."

Now, I will tell you this -- and I give the president some credit on this -- he sent one John Wayne dude down here that can get some stuff done, and his name is General Honore.

And he came off the doggone chopper and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done.

They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority to get the job done, and we can save some people.

ROBINETTE: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?

NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.

I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound busline in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

That's -- they're thinking small, man. And this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man. This is crazy.

I've got 15,000 to 20,000 people over at the convention center. It's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines Parish. They're air-vacing people over here in New Orleans. We don't have anything and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines Parish.

It's awful down here, man.

ROBINETTE: Do you believe that the president is seeing this, holding a news conference on it but can't do anything until Kathleen Blanco requested him to do it? And do you know whether or not she has made that request?

NAGIN: I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.

We're getting reports and calls that are breaking my heart, from people saying, "I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out." And that's happening as we speak.

You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."

ROBINETTE: Who'd you say that to?

NAGIN: Everybody: the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA. You name it, we said it.

And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people -- Marcia St. Martin (ph) -- stayed there and endangered their lives.

And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people. In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city. That's a power station over there. So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of
action.

ROBINETTE: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that just couldn't be done?

NAGIN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture. But, you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done.

Then they told me that they went overnight and they built 17 concrete structures and they had the pulleys on them and they were going to drop them.

I flew over that thing yesterday and it's in the same shape that it was after the storm hit. There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.

ROBINETTE: If some of the public called and they're right, that

there's a law that the president, that the federal government can't do anything without local or state requests, would you request martial law?

NAGIN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that a few days ago.

ROBINETTE: Did the governor do that, too?

NAGIN: I don't know. I don't think so.

But we called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control. And we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead-tired from saving people but they worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night. And so we redirected all of our resources and we hold it under check.

I'm not sure if we can do that another night with the current resources.

And I am telling you right now: They're showing all these reports of people looting and doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that, but people are desperate and they're trying to find food and water, the majority of them.

Now, you got some knuckle heads out there and they are taking advantage of this lawless -- this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small majority of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.

And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.

(continued)

Gn2Dlnd

09-03-2005, 05:37 PM

(part two)

You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's that reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drug stores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.

And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug- starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.

ROBINETTE: Well, you and I must be in the minority. Because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's going on to this point has been done as good as it can possibly be.

NAGIN: Really?

ROBINETTE: I know you don't feel that way.

NAGIN: Well, did the tsunami victims request? Did it go through a formal process to request?

You know, did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there?

What is more important?

And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

ROBINETTE: You and I will be in the funny place together.

NAGIN: But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody need to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.

ROBINETTE: What can we do here?

NAGIN: Keep talking about it.

ROBINETTE: We'll do that. What else can we do?

NAGIN: Organize people to write letters and make calls to their congressmen, to the president, to the governor. Flood their doggone offices with requests to do something.

This is ridiculous.

I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late.

Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.

ROBINETTE: I'll say it right now, you're the only politician that's called and called for arms like this. And if -- whatever it takes, the governor, president -- whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes, I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.

NAGIN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just -- I'm at the point now where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same in this time.

ROBINETTE: We're both pretty speechless here.

NAGIN: Yeah, I don't know what to say.

I got to go.

ROBINETTE: OK. Keep in touch. Keep in touch.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-03-2005, 05:37 PM

Here is another example of the incompetence of FEMA, run by a guy who was fired from his last job running horse shows, and who has no experience at all in crisis management. But hey, he was a GOP activist.

On Wednesday morning a group of approximately 1,000 citizens pulling 500 boats left the Acadiana Mall in Lafayette in the early morning and headed to New Orleans with a police escort from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Department. The flotillia of trucks pulling boats stretched over FIVE miles. This citizen rescue group was organized by La. State Senator, Nick Gautreaux from Vermilion Parish. The group was comprised of experienced boaters, licensed fishermen and hunters, people who have spent their entire adult life and teenage years on the waterways of Louisiana.

The State Police waved the flotillia of trucks/boats through the barricades in LaPlace and we sped into New Orleans via I-10 until past the airport and near the Clearview exit. At that time we were stopped by agents of the FEMA controlled La. Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries. A young DWF agent strolled through the boats and told approximately half of the citizens that their boats were too large because the water had dropped during the night and that they should turn around and go home.

They were pulling a large (24ft) shallow draft aluminum boat that can safely carry 12 passengers and had ramp access which would allow the elderly and infirm to have easier access to the boat. They then politely informed the DWF agent that the local and national media had consistently reported that the water level had risen during the night which contradicted his statement to them that the water was dropping and no boat over 16ft. in length would be allowed to participate in rescue operations.

They then specifically asked the DWF agent that they (and other citizens in the flotillia) be allowed to go to the hospitals and help evacuate the sick and the doctors and nurses stranded there. They offered to bring these people back to Lafayette, in our own vehicles, in order to ensure that they received proper and prompt medical care.

The DWF agent did not want to hear this and ordered them home -- ALL FIVE HUNDRED BOATS. They complied with the DWF agent's orders, turned around and headed back to Lafayette along with half of the flotillia. However, two friends were pulling a smaller 15ft alumaweld with a 25 hp. The DWF agents let them through to proceed to the rescue operation launch site.

They were allowed to drive to the launch site where the FEMA controlled La. Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries were launching their rescue operations (via boat). They reported to me that there were over 200 DWF agents just standing around and doing nothing. They were kept there for approximately 3 hours. During that time they observed a large number of DWF agents doing absolutely nothing. Why? Because FEMA would n ot let them HELP! After three hours had passed they were told that they were not needed and should go home. They complied with the DWF's orders and turned around and went home to Lafayette.

Watching CNN later that night, there was a telephone interview with a Nurse trapped in Charity Hospital in New Orleans. She said that there were over 1,000 people trapped inside of the hospital and that the doctors and nurses had zero medical supplies, no diesel to run the generators and that only three people had been rescued from the hospital since the Hurricane hit!

I can't come up with one logical reason why the DWF sent this large group of 500 boats/1000 men home when we surely could have rescued most, if not all, of the people trapped in Charity Hospital. Further, we had the means to immediately transport these people to hospitals in Southwest Louisiana.

link (http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/357)

Gemini Cricket

09-03-2005, 07:06 PM

A quote from U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La regarding Bush:
“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. The good and decent people of southeast Louisiana and the Gulf Coast – black and white, rich and poor, young and old – deserve far better from their national government."
So the rebuilding of the levee was just a Bush coordinated photo-op thing? Nice.

http://www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952

lizziebith

09-03-2005, 07:46 PM

I don't care for the gal's music, but 20 minutes before she was supposed to take the stage for her Vegas show, Celine Dion went on Larry King and pretty much ripped him a new one. She yelled! She cried. She was outraged at the slow help... She gave a million bucks and was the ONLY celeb on his "fund-raising-SHOW" who said that was nothing to her -- that it was a drop in the bucket -- that she'd need to give again in 2-3 months. Go Celine! Now I think you're really cool...

surfinmuse

09-03-2005, 07:48 PM

Sigh. Did anyone watch the exchange between Wolf Blitzer & Jack Cafferty on CNN, 2 September, circa 3pm:

Jack Cafferty: Do you suppose, Wolf, that the arrival of the relief convoys and the political photo ops on the gulf coast happening at the very same time were a coincidence today?

Wolf Blitzer: Uh, well, we'll, I'm sure our viewers have some thoughts on that as well. These pictures, by the way, Jack, that we're getting in...

Wolf Blitzer: Jack a final thought before I let you go.

Jack Cafferty: It's embarrassing.... [a few beats of "dead air"...]

alphabassettgrrl

09-03-2005, 09:42 PM

I heard one of the reasons they called off the evacuation of the hospital was because the flotilla was being fired on. Still doesn't make sense, and I'm sure a lot of them would have still continued, even under fire, if it meant they could help save people.

I loved the interview with the mayor. Hopefully everybody can learn from this and it won't happen next time.

scaeagles

09-03-2005, 09:48 PM

The mismanagement goes to the governor and mayor as well.

The governor should have declared martial law. Period. She didn't have the guts to do so.

The mayor didn't even follow the NOLA evacuation plan -

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

He was also extremely chummy with Bush after they met and talked. I wonder what happened to cause the turn around.

The victims and those looking in from the outside have every right to be critical. One politician pointing fingers at another is nothing but political CYA, as I can't think of anyone who did anything well, from local to state to federal government.

I think that rapper - Kanye whatever - serves no good purpose. Racial rhetoric at this time is disgusting.

Scrooge McSam

09-03-2005, 10:24 PM

Ah, another chance to tangle with Leo. You just know how that makes my little heart go pitter patter.

*Scrooge reaches for his pressure medication*

The mismanagement goes to the governor and mayor as well.

The governor should have declared martial law. Period. She didn't have the guts to do so.

Pish! Once a disaster is declared, FEMA is in command.

U S Department of Homeland Security (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp)

And I quote...

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

The mayor didn't even follow the NOLA evacuation plan -

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

Make your case. I see no problem here.

He was also extremely chummy with Bush after they met and talked. I wonder what happened to cause the turn around.

I don't know. Some empty promise? I imagine just about anything sounds good after 4 days of hunger, thirst, death, fear and stink. I bet he's changed his attitude again after Bush left and Nagin found out all that equipment he saw on the levee was just there for Bush's photo op.

The victims and those looking in from the outside have every right to be critical. One politician pointing fingers at another is nothing but political CYA, as I can't think of anyone who did anything well, from local to state to federal government.

Considering your relative position to the situation, I can see how you'd believe that.

I think that rapper - Kanye whatever - serves no good purpose. Racial rhetoric at this time is disgusting.

Racial strife exists. When it erupts in people's faces, they talk about it. The people in New Orleans SAW Tulane hospital being evacuated by coptors under armed guard while Charity hospital couldn't get an aluminum boat.

Gn2Dlnd

09-04-2005, 12:46 AM

What a winner we have in this guy. Can't wait for him to resign from his current job. Probably right after he receives his Medal of Honor.

http://www.ahwmagazine.com/11ahw00/departments/what_world.html

I resent the characterization that the Executive Committee forced Mike Brown out, when in fact, the catalyst that led to his resignation was a very embarrassing situation caused by Mike Brown himself that came to light at the Board Meeting. He then stated to everyone in attendance, which was the full Board, that he wanted to resign, that he was tired, that he didn’t like the effect on his family that this was having, and he felt that it was time to go. He repeated those statements to the Executive Committee on two other days. A week later he repeated it to me, and at that time said that his attorney was contacting the IAHA attorney to work out the terms. The fact that he brought in his attorney at that early stage surprised us.

Gn2Dlnd

09-04-2005, 01:08 AM

GW's declaration was actually in response to a request by the governor.
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

Gn2Dlnd

09-04-2005, 01:25 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington (my bold) until late Thursday.

also of interest:
n addition to Guard help, the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service.

Scrooge McSam

09-04-2005, 06:44 AM

More grist for the mill.

Defending the U.S. government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argued Saturday that government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.chertoff/index.html)

How many years of practice does it take for one to lie so callously to millions of people?

Last week, Michael Brown, head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, told CNN his agency had recently planned for a Category 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans.

Speaking to "Larry King Live" on August 31, in the wake of Katrina, Brown said, "That Category 4 hurricane caused the same kind of damage that we anticipated. So we planned for it two years ago. Last year, we exercised it. And unfortunately this year, we're implementing it."

Implementing? That's what we're calling it? Strangling and blockading are the words I would have chosen.

scaeagles

09-04-2005, 03:14 PM

I concur that Chertoff is a complete idiot and a liar to make such a statement. I have read reports of talk of exactly this disaster going back 50 years.

Both Chertoff and Brown should resign.

Scrooge, it is my understanding that yes, FEMA takes over with the declaration to manage aide - which hasn't been done even adequately. However, I thought only the governor could impose martial law on a local basis. As it is a suspension of civil rights, I didn't think FEMA could make that call.

As far as my criticism of the NOLA mayor, I saw pics of a couple hundred school busses sitting under water. I would have fiugured with the mandatory evacuation they would/should have been used to evacuate people.

The mayor and governor should have been responsible to enforce/assist in the mandatory evacuaiton however possible.

The way I see it, the local and state governments have done a horrid job pre-disaster. No planning, or as least no execution of the plan. The federal government has done a horrid job post disaster in assisting/executing rescue efforts.

I take no pride in how the republican admisistration has handled this. However, I think they are not the only ones who are worthy of criticism. That is my only point.

Scrooge McSam

09-04-2005, 06:09 PM

As far as my criticism of the NOLA mayor, I saw pics of a couple hundred school busses sitting under water. I would have fiugured with the mandatory evacuation they would/should have been used to evacuate people.

The mayor and governor should have been responsible to enforce/assist in the mandatory evacuaiton however possible.

Good point. I was not aware of this footage. I just got cable back a couple of hours ago. If all available resources to evacuate weren't utilized that needs to be brought into the light.

Mr. Nagin will have things to answer for, I'm sure.

Gemini Cricket

09-06-2005, 04:49 AM

I don't know if this is the right thread to post this, my apologies to Commodore Swank if it's not:

Barbara Bush: Things Working Out 'Very Well' for Poor Evacuees from New Orleans

By E&P Staff

Published: September 05, 2005 7:25 PM ET updated 8:00 PM

NEW YORK Accompanying her husband, former President George
H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in
Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the
poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated,
"This is working very well for them."

The former First Lady's remarks were aired this
evening on National Public Radio's "Marketplace"
program.

She was part of a group in Houston today at the
Astrodome that included her husband and former
President Bill Clinton, who were chosen by her son,
the current president, to head fundraising efforts for
the recovery. Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack
Obama were also present.

In a segment at the top of the show on the surge of
evacuees to the Texas city, Barbara Bush said: "Almost
everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to
Houston."

Then she added: "What I’m hearing which is sort of
scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is
so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bb.mp3

--------------

Hmmm, she could have worded that differently. She sounds like she's pretty far out there in regards to what is really happening. Between this quote and Bush Sr. on Larry King defending Jr. against the media that is picking on his son, I just want to barf.
:(

Betty

09-06-2005, 05:11 AM

This is working very well for them??? OMFG! What dream world is she living in? Is she really *that* out of touch to believe that?

Moonliner

09-06-2005, 05:48 AM

Moonliner

09-06-2005, 05:57 AM

As it is a suspension of civil rights, I didn't think FEMA could make that call.

Perhaps that's because you think of FEMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fema) as a disaster relief
organization, like a federal version of the Red Cross. That's far from the case. FEMA's primary mission is the continuation of civilian government during times of crisis. After all we can't have those uppity military types taking over can we now? Towards that goal FEMA has rights and powers that are downright scary. Civil rights hampering your efforts? No problem, toss them out. The Constitution proving to be an issue for you? Na! Suspend it and get on with what you want to do. FEMA gets a VERY free hand during a crisis oh and guess who gets to decided when it's a crisis? You guessed it. FEMA.

scaeagles

09-06-2005, 08:46 AM

Except that the governor of Mississippi DID declare martial law. Mississippi was incredibly hard hit as well, but overshadowed by the devastation in NOLA. In Mississippi, they did not have looting and lawlessness such as they are having in LA.

So how did the Gov of Miss have the authority to declare martial law, but the Gov of LA did not? Again, I believe that it is the perrogative of the governor. The National Guard answers to the governor, and the national guard is who takes control when martial law is declared.

All that said, I'm no expert in all that. That's how I think it works, and based on the Gov of Miss declaring martial law, it seems to make sense.

Ghoulish Delight

09-06-2005, 09:01 AM

I do agree that Martial Law shoul have been declared sooner. Among other things, I heard on Wednesday or Thursday that even if the National Guard HAD arrived, until martial law is declared, they would have been completely barred from taking any police action whatsoever. This is an important division of power designed to protect states rights. The federal government can't simply send troops into a state and take it over, they must have permission from the governor. And a fine rule that is.

BUT, that's a drop in the bucket in terms of what went wrong. It all comes down to the preparation, or the lack there of. Three things keep jumping out at me as glaringly wrong:

1) FEMA and the National Guard was mobilized AFTER the fact. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. They had 4 days' warning. It took 3 days to mobilize. Had they begun mobilizing and staging immediately, they would have been in the city on day one. Martial Law or no, they would have been delivering supplies, stabilizing the levees, and keeping stock of the refugees immediately.

2) Years and years of studies showing the weakness of those levees was patently ignored. This exact scenario was played out on paper in front of everyone who could have done something to prevent it, prepare for it, something, and it was completely dismissed. Unforgiveable

3) Since 9/11, when FEMA was stuck under Homeland Security, there have been zero, that's zero training scenarios for hurricanes. The closest they came? 2 training missions that were, "What to do in case of a terrorist attack during a hurricane." Yup, this whole war on terror thing is doing a fabulous job of improving our lives at home.

Gn2Dlnd

09-06-2005, 10:31 AM

After watching the news today I have to say it's getting harder by the day to feel a lot of sympathy for some of these "victims".

One lady had the chance to talk with the head of FEMA, her question?

"Our house has collapsed, how soon are YOU going to rebuild it for me. Oh and my 8-Year old daughter is missing"

It's not the governments job to rebuild your house, it's yours. FEMA provides LOANS not gimmies. Also don't you think finding your daughter should be more of a priority than your house for right now?

Yeah, and if you go into an AA meeting, you're likely to find more than one or two assholes. If you were to, say, take a look around yourself at the next big event at Disneyland attended by many Annual Passholders, you'll find more than a few idiots. So, if your point is that there are misdirected people in all situations (oh, and may I point out that this woman is under the kind of stresses that most of us will NEVER experience), you're right.

But I don't think it was. I'm glad, though, that if any of us are ever in a similar situation, we have someone who'll straighten out our priorities for us.

Gosh, thanks.

P.S. What's with the quotation marks around the word, "victims?" Do you think people are lying, just to get into the Astrodome?

Motorboat Cruiser

09-06-2005, 11:51 AM

Not to mention that the Director of FEMA has absolutely NO experience in disaster management. He was hired as a favor to a friend of Bush even though he had no qualifications for the position. His previous job was overseeing horse training and he was fired from that. This was the best person that Bush could find for this vital position? Really? This guy didn't even know that there were people at the convention center when the news had been reporting it for 2-3 days. Gross incompetence.

Let's see where the buck stops.

Edited to add: Oops...Upon reviewing this thread, I see that I made this point previously. Still, it bears repeating.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-06-2005, 11:59 AM

After watching the news today I have to say it's getting harder by the day to feel a lot of sympathy for some of these "victims".

Not for me, it isn't. These people have been through hell. I don't think it is our place to decide who is conducting themselves properly or who deserves sympathy. The woman you mentioned lost her home and her child. Maybe she was under the impression that FEMA couldn't do anything about her child but they might be able to give her information about her housing concerns. I highly doubt her child was less of a concern than her home. Without knowing the whole story, perhaps we could lay off judging these people for the moment.

Gn2Dlnd

09-06-2005, 12:10 PM

From Monday’s New York Times:
“Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld arrived in Louisiana today and toured a medical facility at the New Orleans international airport.
“Upon his arrival at the airport, Mr. Rumsfeld spoke to and shook hands with military and rescue officials, but he walked right by a dozen refugees lying on stretchers just feet away from him, most of them extremely sick or handicapped, Reuters reported.”

And, not to be outdone:

Barbara Bush on Monday night's Marketplace on NPR:
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."

scaeagles

09-06-2005, 12:12 PM

Edited to add: Oops...Upon reviewing this thread, I see that I made this point previously. Still, it bears repeating.

It does. That is inexcusable. Bush should answer for that. The director of FEMA should be fired, no doubt.

I will hold back judgement on any inhabitant of the affected areas. That lady might not have slept for days.

However, as far as where the buck stops, the first two places it should stop are with the local government - specifically the mayor of NOLA and the governor. I believe these two points bear repeating - the mayor had days to evacuate and yet didn't even abide by the written plan. Hundreds of busses that could and should have been used to evacuate well over 10,000 people who had no transportation sit in a flooded parking lot. The governor did not declare martial law, and made no use of the national guard because she did not request them, and as GD points out, they can't just come storming in.

The local officials had the responsibility of predisaster execution and did nothing. Yes, there was gross mismanagement by FEMA and the feds in the first three days after Katrina passed, but the amount of human suffering would have been greatly reduced if the local officials had done something to get those people out or get the national guard in there to keep order in the first couple of days afterward.

€uroMeinke

09-06-2005, 12:20 PM

"Our house has collapsed, how soon are YOU going to rebuild it for me. Oh and my 8-Year old daughter is missing"

Well, if you have any respect for Maslow's Hierarchy of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs), food and shelter rank above relationships, not to be an appologist but I could buy her misplaced priorities given the circumstances

Not Afraid

09-06-2005, 12:39 PM

And, not to be outdone:

Barbara Bush on Monday night's Marketplace on NPR:
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."

UGH! This just turns my stomach! Look at those cute little underprivileged. They're going to get a little extra treat this time. Good little puppies. How darling they are!

Ghoulish Delight

09-06-2005, 12:44 PM

...or get the national guard in there to keep order in the first couple of days afterward.Nothing local government could have done about that without the Federal government preparing the guard days ahead of time. The national guard was mobilized immediately...but it's made up mostly of people with full time jobs, not units sitting on a base. It takes 3 days minimum to mobilize the national guard, especially in its thinned out state with so many of them in Iraq. Martial Law or not, had the guard been mobilized 4 days BEFORE the hurricane, they would have been ready to get into the city and start rescuing people and handing out aid immediately, even if they weren't allowed to take police action (though I'd bet their mere presence would have severely reduced the amount of need for police action even without martial law...if I see a dude with an AK, I'm not going to go check the news paper to find out if he's been granted the power to shoot me or not).

There is absolutely no excuse for news crews being able to get those stupid vans to the Convention Center days before the guard, and that's not something local government has control over.

Prudence

09-06-2005, 12:46 PM

When I'm overwhelmed, I have a tendency to hyperfocus on smaller elements that I feel more able to control -- sometimes at the expense of the more important issues. I can easily picture myself trying to restore some type of mental order and running into someone I perceive as able to facilitate my home rebuilding and immediately asking them when they could get started with that.

What I find striking about this disaster is how it seems to be going wrong on all levels. Preventing this scale of disaster was delayed. Planning to handle this scale of disaster was delayed or repackaged for the war on terror. Response by local officials was delayed. Response by federal officials was delayed. And now, comments on the refuge situation are misguided (and that's the polite version.) Every time one thinks "well, at least they can't mess* this up any further" someone does or says something that defies all logic and civility.

I wonder if some of the folkd recently quoted quite simply don't get it. There have been any number of newstories highlighting the poorer than average demographic affected by this storm and the subsequent flooding. I wonder if some picture the more typical Floridian experience of throwing the tarp on the roof, replacing those items that weren't moved to the upper floors, and filing a homeowner's claim to cover the damages? I wonder if some people can't comprehend that some people, who we might previously described as "having nothing," now literally have nothing?

______
*Replace with expletive of your choosing.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-06-2005, 12:54 PM

The national guard was mobilized immediately...but it's made up mostly of people with full time jobs, not units sitting on a base. It takes 3 days minimum to mobilize the national guard, especially in its thinned out state with so many of them in Iraq.

Another important point is that many of the thousands of guardsmen who are in Iraq were local police and firemen. Their knowledge of the area could have helped much more than sending in guards from other states.

I still don't understand why we have National guardsmen in Iraq. That isn't what they signed up to do and they were needed HERE.

Gn2Dlnd

09-06-2005, 01:12 PM

OUR OPINIONS: An open letter to the President
Dear Mr. President:

We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, "What is not working, we’re going to make it right."

Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.

Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It’s accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.

How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.

Despite the city’s multiple points of entry, our nation’s bureaucrats spent days after last week’s hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city’s stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.

Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.

Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a "Today" show story Friday morning.

Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.

We’re angry, Mr. President, and we’ll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That’s to the government’s shame.

Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don’t know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city’s death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.

It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren’t they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn’t suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?

State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn’t have but two urgent needs: "Buses! And gas!" Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.

In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn’t known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, "We’ve provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they’ve gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day."

Lies don’t get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.

Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, "You’re doing a heck of a job."

That’s unbelievable.

There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.

We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We’re no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.

No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn’t be reached.

Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.

When you do, we will be the first to applaud.

This is an excellent source for local info from New Orleans:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09.html#076771

alphabassettgrrl

09-06-2005, 01:16 PM

One point to remember also concerns the people interviewed on camera. They're not the average person. They're chosen for effect, for what they will say. Somebody probably thought it was funny or outrageous for the woman to seem more concerned for her house than her daughter.

Gn2Dlnd

09-06-2005, 01:49 PM

Matt, I hope you don't mind that I reposted your link in this thread.

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-643298.html

DURHAM -- A trio of Duke University sophomores say they drove to New Orleans late last week, posed as journalists to slip inside the hurricane-soaked city twice, and evacuated seven people who weren't receiving help from authorities.

Pretty wild stuff...

Here's the quote that gets me:

"Anyone who knows that area, if you had a bus, it would take you no more than 20 minutes to drive in with a bus and get these people out," Buder said. "They sat there for four or five days with no food, no water, babies getting raped in the bathrooms, there were murders, nobody was doing anything for these people. And we just drove right in, really disgraceful. I don't want to get too fired up with the rhetoric, but some blame needs to be placed somewhere."

scaeagles

09-06-2005, 04:00 PM

Another important point is that many of the thousands of guardsmen who are in Iraq were local police and firemen. Their knowledge of the area could have helped much more than sending in guards from other states.

I still don't understand why we have National guardsmen in Iraq. That isn't what they signed up to do and they were needed HERE.

While the debate is certainly valid about national guardsmen being in Iraq, Louisiana has 11,700 National guardsmen, and 8,000 are still there. It isn't an issue of all of the guardsmen not knowing the area at all.

Name

09-06-2005, 04:37 PM

I'm not too worried about the NOLA situation anymore, because I know once its all over with, there will be a multi-million dollar investigation and commission hearings to find out what went wrong.

Too bad that money couldn't have been spent up front to prevent this stuff from happening in the first place though.

Ghoulish Delight

09-06-2005, 06:16 PM

Here's a fine example of the well thought-out recover process by FEMA:

http://katrinablog.msnbc.com/2005/09/what_is_fema_th.html#below-fold

As noted here two days ago, the Federal Emergency Management Agency's decision to ask evacuees to call (800) 621-3362 or browse to www.fema.gov (http://www.fema.gov/) to start the process of filing a claim for disaster assistance was greeted with disbelief by most relief workers we talked to, who noted that most of these people don’t have ready access to telephones.
It turns out, according to a Red Cross worker here, the response is even a bigger Catch-22 than I realized.

It turns out, according to the worker, who like the other aid workers spoke on condition of anonymity, that the call to the FEMA number does not open a claim; it results in a package containing the claim form being mailed to the address of the evacuee.

Since the evacuee is in a shelter, mail service has been suspended in many of the hardest hit areas and some of the homes are likely still under water, it seems clear that those claim forms won’t be mailed back any time soon. [emphasis mine]

Motorboat Cruiser

09-06-2005, 06:27 PM

That truly boggles the mind. Did anyone think about any of this beforehand?

scaeagles

09-06-2005, 06:55 PM

Oh my.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-06-2005, 07:10 PM

While the debate is certainly valid about national guardsmen being in Iraq, Louisiana has 11,700 National guardsmen, and 8,000 are still there. It isn't an issue of all of the guardsmen not knowing the area at all.

My understanding is that the ones sent to Iraq were ones specifically with fire/police training. I could be wrong though. Lots of unverifiable info floating around these days. If true though, the ones over there might have been especially helpful.

SacTown Chronic

09-06-2005, 07:21 PM

God bless Barbara Bush. It just burns her ass that those poor folks aren't more grateful for all the free food and blankets.

She's gonna be livid when she sees them bunking on those cruise ships. Shhhhh.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-06-2005, 07:33 PM

Oops...

(CNN) -- Add geography to the growing list of FEMA fumbles.

A South Carolina health official said his colleagues scrambled Tuesday when FEMA gave only a half-hour notice to prepare for the arrival of a plane carrying as many as 180 evacuees to Charleston.

But the plane, instead, landed in Charleston, West Virginia, 400 miles away.

It was not known whether arrangements have been made to care for the evacuees or transport them to the correct destination.

A call seeking comment from FEMA was not immediately returned.

"We called in all the available resources," said Dr. John Simkovich, director of public health for the South Carolina Department of Health and Environmental Control.

"They responded within 30 minutes, which is phenomenal, to meet the needs of the citizens coming in from Louisiana," he said.

Simkovich said that the agency had described some of the evacuees as needing "some minor treatment ... possibly some major treatment."

"Unfortunately, the plane did not come in," Simkovich said. "There was a mistake in the system, coming out through FEMA, that we did not receive the aircraft this afternoon. It went to Charleston, West Virginia."

A line of buses and ambulances idled behind him at Charleston International Airport as he described what happened.

"This is a 'no event' for today," Simkovich said.

Failure to Effectively Manage Anything.

Gemini Cricket

09-06-2005, 08:30 PM

http://americablog.blogspot.com/allofemx.jpg
I this sums it up...
:(

Cadaverous Pallor

09-06-2005, 08:30 PM

FEMA had better be completely reorganized after this. They may have to change the name...

I don't know if I posted this earlier, but....We put out a collection box at the library. A lady asked where the money went, and we told her that the city is working with the Red Cross. She said, "oh, ok, as long as it's not FEMA!" I put a little Red Cross logo on the box after that. Our little box has made a few bucks and it's nice to think that we're helping out a tiny bit.

<heartwarming moment>
Over the past weekend there was a street fair at our city and they set up a Red Cross booth. They raised over $48,000! From a little street fair over Labor Day weekend! Every time I hear about the worst from the coast, be it about the humanity or the bureaucracy, I think of all the wonderful people that are helping in any way they can.

Now back to the anger.

As to the debate going on here - I think everyone fvcked up, and I'm sure there's no one involved that is without guilt. Just because the mayor is yelling doesn't mean that he's blameless, but anyone who actually comes out and is honest about the state of things gets kudos from me.

Name

09-06-2005, 08:50 PM

Here's a fine example of the well thought-out recover process by FEMA:

http://katrinablog.msnbc.com/2005/09/what_is_fema_th.html#below-fold

[emphasis mine]
Brought to you by the finest MBAs our institutions of higher learning can produce.

[/sarcasm]
any resemblance to any actual MBAs is purely coincidental. This is not a well researched post, just a poke at MBAs of our finest corporations.

Ghoulish Delight

09-06-2005, 09:29 PM

Sigh. FEMA responded so damned well to the Northridge Quake too.

Ghoulish Delight

09-06-2005, 09:51 PM

The Mayor has ordered forced evacuations, though they have not begun yet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 06:02 AM

Thought this was a good piece -

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344065p-293598c.html

SacTown Chronic

09-07-2005, 06:53 AM

Well golly, there sure is plenty of blame to go around.

Are you Bush apologists gonna care about the performance of the state and local goverments of Louisiana if an epic natural disaster (or terrorist attack) hits your state? Fvck no.

Is Bin Laden laughing at the response of the state and local governments?

As if on cue, Karl Rove shoves his hand up Bush's ass and millions of Bush enablers start parroting the company line.

And let's not forget the cronyism and complete disregard for the safety of the American public that led to FEMA being in the shape it's in.

"Fire Brown" they say.

For what...being who he is? And what exactly will that solve? The same incompetent CEO that hired Allbaugh, who begat Brown, will just appoint another incompetent homey and away we go. Fvck me.

Ghoulish Delight

09-07-2005, 08:23 AM

Thought this was a good piece - Strawman. I don't think anyone here claimed anything about racism, or that the reponse was slow because of the racial makeup of New Orleans. So 3/4 of that article is kinda irrelevant to this discussion. Of course, if I were to respond to it, I'd point out that the criticism isn't that Bush is racist, it's that the response ended up racist by default, and that's a broader systemic issue that needs some serious examination by anyone.

As a side note, I heard an interview on NPR yesterday with an evacuee. This was a young black woman who had made it to Austin with her family. 22 people in all, they all made it out before the hurricane. In the interview, she mentioned that they were from the 9th Ward. She pointed out that the 9th Ward was an area with a large number of black homeowners (I think she said something like the largest percentage in the country or something like that). In otherwords, mainly educated, middle class African Americans. And then she said, "So the media portraying nothing but poor blacks being affected is just not true." Umm, try again. You got out. Your 21 relatives got out. All of you are healthy. You had a self described caravan of vehicles to get out and even had to leave some of your cars behind. You know where all your family is, and they are all healthy. You will be receiving insurance money for your homes and contents. You can afford the hotel you're staying at in Austin. You did not spend days in a squalid stadium. You did not spend days outside the convention center with people dying before your eyes.

How many of those people were from the 9th Ward?

It was poor black people that were left in the worst conditions. It was not a conscious result, but it was the result.

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 08:46 AM

Are you Bush apologists gonna care about the performance of the state and local goverments of Louisiana if an epic natural disaster (or terrorist attack) hits your state? Fvck no.

Hmm...dare I assume you are referring to me?

Actually, I do care about the performance of the state and local government in Louisiana. They screwed up before the disaster hit. Period. Incompetent. Does this mean that I think the feds - or Bush - has done a good job? No. Well, not at first. The first three-four days was a joke and incompetence reigned. Bush is at fault in that he appointed certain people like Brown. But, yes, I do care. The locals screwed up so badly that people died. So did the feds. Please point out where I said that I think Bush and the feds have done a good job. I'm just pointing out that if the locals had done their job, there wouldn't have been the opportunity for the post disaster screw ups. So we can rightly criticize the post disaster, but it is more important to examine the predisaster screwups that put the people in the position they were in.

So yes, I do care. And obviously my state government in AZ does, too. Why do I say that? Well, they are undergoing serious review of the AZ disaster plans. Now why would they do that? Because they realize that it is the responsibility of the local government to be prepared, not the responsibility of the feds to do it for them. I'm no Governor Napolitano fan here in AZ, but she is exactly right to take on a serious review of the procedures. I would like to think that perhaps my own local government isn't so inept so as to cause my community to be in such a situation. If I were, would I want the feds to do a better job in the first couple days? Damn right I would. And that needs to be corrected.

And who the hell cares who bin Laden is laughing at? I don't. Maybe some people laughed when the tsunami hit primarily Muslim countries, and they're a$$holes, too.

I do agree with you Sac, that Bush needs to answer why he hired someone as obviously incompetent as Brown. But if he gets the blame, as he should, then he gets credit for putting the general that is currently running things in New Orleans in charge there, and I read that he's doing one hell of a job.

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 08:49 AM

Strawman. I don't think anyone here claimed anything about racism, or that the reponse was slow because of the racial makeup of New Orleans. So 3/4 of that article is kinda irrelevant to this discussion.

i completely disagree. The first couple paragraphs talk about racism charges, but most of the column deals with the incompetence of the local government currently, and going back into history a bit.

SacTown Chronic

09-07-2005, 10:46 AM

Hmm...dare I assume you are referring to me?
Not really. There are literally millions of people who are trying to deflect blame away from the guy they voted for and pin it on those that don't even represent them.

I'm all for a postmortem to figure out what went wrong on all levels of government, but what I'm seeing is political CYA.

I'm just pointing out that if the locals had done their job, there wouldn't have been the opportunity for the post disaster screw ups.
Classic. See above.

I do agree with you Sac, that Bush needs to answer why he hired someone as obviously incompetent as Brown.

I'm curious as to how you would define 'answering for what he did'. Should he lose his job? His freedom?

If, in the final analysis, it turns out that the mayor of Nola failed because he appointed unqualified cronies to important public safety positions, he should be tried for criminal negligence and manslaughter.

If, in the final analysis, it turns out that the governor of LA failed because she appointed unqualified cronies to important public safety positions, she should be tried for criminal negligence and manslaughter.

If, in the final analysis, it turns out that the president, uh wait, we already know why FEMA failed.

What does America, and Congress, do about it? That's what I'm waiting to see.

Cadaverous Pallor

09-07-2005, 10:47 AM

Of course I can't find it now but yesterday I read that people living in NO were twice as likely as the average American to be without a car.

"Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," one official said of the message.If that one bit from the article is true, then there is blame to be laid at the Mayor's office.

I fully believe that everyone fvcked this one up and I'm not going to join the crowd who want to pin it all on the feds.

Not Afraid

09-07-2005, 10:57 AM

This has been another great example of people more concerned with placing the blame over finding a solution. One of my current pet peeves is just that.

Kevy Baby

09-07-2005, 11:16 AM

This has been another great example of people more concerned with placing the blame over finding a solution. One of my current pet peeves is just that.Thank you NA for the BEST post in this entire thread.

I haven't read most of this thread as it is just that: about placing blame. I am not surprised nor disappointed (in the individuals making them) with the mistakes made. We have absolutely no experience in dealing with a catastrophe of this magnitude. Yes, there have been some idiodic things said and done. Many individuals on ALL levels have made mistakes. But every day, people are doing the best they can to deal with an unfathomable event.

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 11:25 AM

I'm curious as to how you would define 'answering for what he did'. Should he lose his job? His freedom?

....

What does America, and Congress, do about it? That's what I'm waiting to see.

Unfortunately, I don't think any political official can be tried on charges for any of this. Incompetence - or appointing incompetent people - isn't a crime. If so, 99% of politicians would be in prison. I mean answering for what he did in terms of someone asking him "Why did you appoint this loser to FEMA" and Bush explaining why. There is no political toll to pay, as he's in his second term.

What does American and Congress do about it? Well, i find it funny that the same officials who were screaming for the creation of the homeland security department and putting FEMA under the jurisdiction of it are now screaming to have it removed from the department of homeland security. So what does congress do? What they should do, I don't know. What they will do is reshuffle the existing bureaucracy and call the problem fixed. Appoint some commission to examine the problem to insulate themselves from political fallout should their ideas fail. Find the easiest person to assign blame to and move on. Lecture on pork barrell spending on things such as the transportation bill without changing their habits.

Americans? The usual - be outraged for a short period of time, figure it isn't their problem after a while, listen to feel good politicians who tell them the problem is fixed, and blindly move on with their lives until the next tragedy befalls with poor planning beforehand and horrid management afterwards. Then the cycle will repeat the next time.

Sad, but I'm fairly certain it's accurate.

Kevy Baby

09-07-2005, 11:28 AM

Sad, but I'm fairly certain it's accurate.Sadly, I agree with you (I'm not sad that I agree with you, rather that the statement is true).

This country as a whole is sadly lacking in personal responsibility.

Nephythys

09-07-2005, 11:29 AM

Of course I can't find it now but yesterday I read that people living in NO were twice as likely as the average American to be without a car.

If that one bit from the article is true, then there is blame to be laid at the Mayor's office.

I fully believe that everyone fvcked this one up and I'm not going to join the crowd who want to pin it all on the feds.

There is a lot of blame to be laid at the mayor's feet- he has the authority to mobilize transportation to get people out who have no personal transport, no means, or are physically unable to get out on their own. The claim that people were too poor to leave and were left to die is a fallacy- the mayor COULD have gotten them out- he did not do so. He told them to hoof it with their own food and water to the Superdome.

That bus pic is not a joke- it's a very serious indictment of his failure. There is a NOLA evac plan- which said that in the case of a F-3 hurricane (let alone a 5) that the city would provide transportation OUT of there- they did not.

Whatever the FEMA failure- the massive catastrophic failure was at the local level.

Not Afraid

09-07-2005, 11:41 AM

Who cares who failed. A failure of this magnitude is a failure to ALL of us. Everyone failed.

Gn2Dlnd

09-07-2005, 12:13 PM

I started this thread to comment on the incompetence being shown in dealing with the rescue efforts. I named it "Katrina Response Mismanagement," not, "Who's to Blame?" Not, "Katrina Preparedness Mismanagement." I've made an effort to provide links to articles many of you may not have read in whole. Through the educational process of reading these articles, one is likely to assign blame to certain people and agencies.

I'm disappointed that people feel that there's too much to read. I, personally, dislike hearing opinions from people who haven't bothered to educate themselves.

I'm sure that, a year from now, CNN will do a nice anniversary show where all the facts will be nicely bullet-pointed and wrapped up into 40 minutes.

Nephythys

09-07-2005, 12:30 PM

??????

How in the world do you judge who read them and educated themselves or not? You can't really make that assumption-

Oh well.....a link in the name of educating oneself

Link (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219)

SacTown Chronic

09-07-2005, 01:06 PM

Scrooge McSam

09-07-2005, 01:10 PM

??????

How in the world do you judge who read them and educated themselves or not?

I haven't read most of this thread as it is just that: about placing blame.

That's how.

Gn2Dlnd

09-07-2005, 01:19 PM

Do you mean, how do I know who read the links? I don't. I know that one person posted that they hadn't, I would assume that person is representative. I know that one person told me on the phone they hadn't. Again, I assume that one person is representative of more.
Or do you mean, what right do I have to judge them? I don't. I like both of these people very much, no judgment. I merely stated that I was disappointed. Re-reading my post, it appears that I connected two thoughts, my desire to make sure everyone I like to talk to had access to information, and my dismay with people who only use as much information as they need to make their point.

Let me re-work my original post:
I'm disappointed that people feel that there's too much to read. I, personally, dislike hearing opinions from people who haven't bothered to educate themselves.
I'm disappointed that some people feel there's too much to read. My goal was to provide as much information as possible, so the discourse could be as educated as possible.

You may still dislike what I'm saying, but I clearly wrote a badly composed paragraph the first time around.

Now back to business:
ATLANTA - Not long after some 1,000 firefighters sat down for eight hours of training, the whispering began: "What are we doing here?"
As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 01:23 PM

I started this thread to comment on the incompetence being shown in dealing with the rescue efforts. I named it "Katrina Response Mismanagement," not, "Who's to Blame?" Not, "Katrina Preparedness Mismanagement." I've made an effort to provide links to articles many of you may not have read in whole. Through the educational process of reading these articles, one is likely to assign blame to certain people and agencies.

I'm disappointed that people feel that there's too much to read. I, personally, dislike hearing opinions from people who haven't bothered to educate themselves.

Well, actually, I've read a lot more than just what you've posted. If, as you say, reading what you've posted will lead to assigning blame to certain people and agencies, then why do you have a problem with the blame being discussed here? True, it doesn't follow the title of your thread, but threads start discussion, and if what you've posted would lead to the likely assignment of blame, then that is a logical place for the discussion to head.

There is more to being educated then simply reading what you've posted. I would suspect that you would find your educational experience less than fulfilling if you limited your reading to links I posted. I don't bother to post many of them.

Gn2Dlnd

09-07-2005, 01:29 PM

Oh well.....a link in the name of educating oneself

Link (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219)

So, after a half hour, you edited your post to include a blind link to an editorial piece that is nothing but blame-laying? Can I now assume that you didn't even read the first paragraph of the post that you were responding to?

I suggest you go ahead and start that "Who's to Blame?" thread.

Nephythys

09-07-2005, 01:40 PM

So, after a half hour, you edited your post to include a blind link to an editorial piece that is nothing but blame-laying? Can I now assume that you didn't even read the first paragraph of the post that you were responding to?

I suggest you go ahead and start that "Who's to Blame?" thread.

Not at all- it falls under mismanagement. I edited the post rather than clutter up with another one- seemed easier that way.

But I'm done...clearly I bring the wrong toys to the party. Tell me though- you said at the outset that some of the links may offend people- and as I read over the posts again there is ALOT of blame being laid. Why single me out?

Maybe it's that toy thing again?

Gn2Dlnd

09-07-2005, 01:46 PM

If, as you say, reading what you've posted will lead to assigning blame to certain people and agencies, then why do you have a problem with the blame being discussed here? True, it doesn't follow the title of your thread, but threads start discussion, and if what you've posted would lead to the likely assignment of blame, then that is a logical place for the discussion to head.

Mostly, I think, its important to hold to the fire the feet of the people who are in charge right now. As our Secretary of Defense so astutely put it, "You go to war with the army you have." Its important to note the disorganization, the callousness, the attitude of privilege and wealth, the lack of qualification for the job, the bald-faced lies, and the excuses. Blaming those who did not prepare is not the same as exposing the utter ineptitude displayed during the response. As soon as things are put somewhat to rights, as soon as families have been re-united, as soon as bodies are identified and laid to rest, as soon as these things are done, I'm all for firing everybody who had a hand in this shameful mess.

Gn2Dlnd

09-07-2005, 01:54 PM

Why single me out?

You asked me a direct question, I was under the impression that we had engaged in conversation.

I don't get the "toys" reference. What do you mean by "toys?"

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 02:02 PM

OK - I see your point. I'm not sure, though, why pointing out the lies or excuses or lack of qualification is any different than pointing out a lack of preparedness. It would seem that that could wait until after all the important things you listed as well.

I will say, that during the first three days of the operation, it was very important to point out all of those things you mentioned to....encourage improvement. I think, though, that since that general was put in charge, things have been going much, much better, if not close to as well as could be expected. Mistakes? Sure. The plane that went to the wrong place? Indicative of the problems, certainly. It is a massive operation at present and there will be logistical problems and errors in any such large scale project. I think that the initial overall ineptitude has passed.

Progress is being made very rapidly. Instead of 80% of the city under water, aren't they down to about 45% now? The huge break in the levee has been fixed. The superdome debacle was remedied rather quickly when the general took charge. The lawlessness is coming under control.

Kevy Baby

09-07-2005, 02:47 PM

I started this thread to comment on the incompetence being shown in dealing with the rescue efforts. I named it "Katrina Response Mismanagement," not, "Who's to Blame?" Not, "Katrina Preparedness Mismanagement."Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, this title of the thread and the first couple of posts by the OP set the tone that has followed throughout this thread. You've gotten exactly what you asked for!

I'm disappointed that people feel that there's too much to read. I, personally, dislike hearing opinions from people who haven't bothered to educate themselves.Because I have not read the specific articles posted, I "haven't bothered to educate [my]self"? Puh-leese

Am I not intelligent enough to see the context of an article without analyzing every possible word? I am intelligent enough to recognize immediately the gist of the articles. I have enough experience in life to see that it is the same blame game going that I have already read about. You can call it defecation, poo-poo, #2, excrement, feces, whatever. But in the end, it's all just **** (BTW, this was used for an alegory, not as a commentary on the content - really; I mean it!).

Whether someone reads specifically what you want them to does not render them educated ot not.

And that I (and others) am not interested in the blame game - which is what this thread was about since the very first post - to me indicates a higher level of thought process. Sorry for sounding arrogant, but I firmly believe that.

Are you a part of the problem or part of the solution? I prefer the latter.

That's how.
See above.

Kevy Baby

09-07-2005, 02:51 PM

Let me re-work my original post:

I'm disappointed that some people feel there's too much to read. My goal was to provide as much information as possible, so the discourse could be as educated as possible.

You may still dislike what I'm saying, but I clearly wrote a badly composed paragraph the first time around.]Okay, I did not see this before I posted my response above. But I am leaving it there anyways as I am happy with what I wrote.

Kevy Baby

09-07-2005, 02:53 PM

Kevy Baby

09-07-2005, 02:57 PM

Why single me out?Because you brought the wrong toy? :D

Ghoulish Delight

09-07-2005, 03:00 PM

I will say, that during the first three days of the operation, it was very important to point out all of those things you mentioned to....encourage improvement. I think, though, that since that general was put in charge, things have been going much, much better, if not close to as well as could be expected. Mistakes? Sure. The plane that went to the wrong place? Indicative of the problems, certainly. It is a massive operation at present and there will be logistical problems and errors in any such large scale project. I think that the initial overall ineptitude has passed.Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. Yes, things are going better now, and people who are in a position to help need to continue to do what they can. But just because there's a job to do now and it's being done right doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the fact that severe errors cost many many many people their lives. And not in an effort to place blame or get people fired (though that may be the result), but to make sure it doesn't freaking happen again.

Nephythys

09-07-2005, 03:28 PM

Because you brought the wrong toy? :D

heehee, or the wrong batteries? :snap:

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 07:10 PM

Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. Yes, things are going better now, and people who are in a position to help need to continue to do what they can. But just because there's a job to do now and it's being done right doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the fact that severe errors cost many many many people their lives. And not in an effort to place blame or get people fired (though that may be the result), but to make sure it doesn't freaking happen again.

OK - I'm fine with that. But there has been a lot of talk about not laying blame on the mayor or governor or the preparation for the disaster or lack of execution of any prepared plans because "this isn't the right time" or some such thing. If that's the case for local officials, it's the case for federal officials. I don't see a need to treat the two differently. I just have a problem with treating anyone as if they are immune from criticism at this point, not that anyone is being criticized.

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 07:11 PM

Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Is this supposed to be some sort of insult?

Scrooge McSam

09-07-2005, 08:24 PM

But there has been a lot of talk about not laying blame on the mayor or governor or the preparation for the disaster or lack of execution of any prepared plans because "this isn't the right time" or some such thing.

Where?

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 08:55 PM

I'd love to cite a link for you, but i haven't one. I've heard things like this said on Hardball (CNN - Chris Matthews), guests on Hannity & Colmes, various leaders.

innerSpaceman

09-07-2005, 09:08 PM

How 'bout not laying blame on the mayor or the governor because their performance doesn't mean a rat's tail to me when California has a major earthquake. The only common factors for me to be afraid for my life are FEMA, the Department of Fatherland Security, and the federal government.

They are going to get most of my scorn because they come into play when the next emergency hits anywhere in the U.S. Except for the patented Blame Game, the mayor of NO and the Gov of LA are insignificant to the future.

€uroMeinke

09-07-2005, 09:50 PM

I blame Katrina

scaeagles

09-07-2005, 09:55 PM

How 'bout not laying blame on the mayor or the governor because their performance doesn't mean a rat's tail to me when California has a major earthquake. The only common factors for me to be afraid for my life are FEMA, the Department of Fatherland Security, and the federal government.

So this means you care nothing about the suffering of the people in NOLA, only that you'll be safer should there be some major disaster.

To me that isn't the point at all. I kind of thought the issue was what happened to those people and who might have prevented much of the suffering and death.

Ghoulish Delight

09-07-2005, 09:57 PM

Is this supposed to be some sort of insult?No, simply a frustration with the chorus (not from you) of, "Stop laying blame and start helping!"

Not Afraid

09-07-2005, 10:03 PM

No, simply a frustration with the chorus (not from you) of, "Stop laying blame and start helping!"

Well, then, stop being frustrated and DO SOMETHING to help.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-07-2005, 10:17 PM

Some of us are doing things to help and we are demanding answers. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree with iSm. I can't hold the Mayor accountable. The people of New Orleans need to do that. I can't hold the Governor accountable. The people of Louisiana have to do that. But, I should have a say as far as FEMA is concerning because my tax dollars are paying for it. My President said we are better prepared for an emergency since 9/11 and spent a whole lot of money to make that happen. Three weeks ago, I thought we were a lot better at emergency management than I do now. If an earthquake hits here, can I expect better from FEMA? If another disaster hits another part of the country, will FEMA respond better? This hurricane came with warning. A terrorist attack won't.

FEMA and President Bush are not responsible for this hurricane. They shouldn't take all of the blame for the response either. The Mayor and Governor did a piss poor job as well. And anyone that could leave and didn't, they screwed up too.

Bottom Line: We need to fix all of these problems quickly and efficiently and be better prepared next time. The dialog needs to begin immediately though, before the indifference sets in and we lose interest. We won't do it by waiting until it is "appropriate" to talk about it.

Name

09-07-2005, 10:35 PM

Americans? The usual - be outraged for a short period of time, figure it isn't their problem after a while, listen to feel good politicians who tell them the problem is fixed, and blindly move on with their lives until the next tragedy befalls with poor planning beforehand and horrid management afterwards. Then the cycle will repeat the next time.

Sad, but I'm fairly certain it's accurate.
Just don't forget the political radio and television show spin doctors(from both sides) that are already priming their listeners with "the answers"

BTW, as for who I blame, I blame the politicians(all of them)
(oh, and Katrina too)

Ghoulish Delight

09-08-2005, 07:44 AM

Some of us are doing things to help and we are demanding answers. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, thank you. I've done what I can. But the implication that continuing to highlight what went wrong in the hopes that the gaping inadequacies get fixed somehow hampers the continued relief effort and that we should all shut up and be good little cheerleaders is ridiculous.

Nephythys

09-08-2005, 08:04 AM

For me it is not about cheerleading (I'd look silly in those short skirts) it's about the single minded attitude (not pointing fingers) that insists on attacking the gov't for their own political purposes.

Again- not pointing fingers.....just expressing frustration. It is one thing to see people get to the bottom of the problem in order to fix it for the future, and another to try to use it to change a political point in their favor. It makes me sick to see people try to score political points off the dead and homeless.

SacTown Chronic

09-08-2005, 08:45 AM

It makes me sick to see people try to score political points off the dead and homeless.
The Bush 2004 reelection campaign with it's too numerous to count references to 9/11 must have had you vomiting nonstop.

scaeagles

09-08-2005, 08:55 AM

I agree, Nephy.

Jesse Jackson gets out and says that the superdome looks like the hold of a slave ship. What? Has Jesse Jackson ever seen a slave ship?

Moveon.org is planning on using images of Katrina victims in anti-Roberts ads. What?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-09-07-roberts-civil-rights_x.htm
"The connection is obvious," Brandzel (moveon.org's advocacy director)said. "The images after Hurricane Katrina show we still live in a society where significant racial inequities exist. We believe John Roberts' record on civil rights ... is clearly not the direction our country needs to head now."

I could continue to cite many more examples, but there's no point to it.

There are TONS of examples of criticism that is not constructive nor helpful to finding a solution or solutions to problems that clearly exist in emergency preparedness and response. I have no problem with anyone pointing out the failings of FEMA or the governor of LA or the mayor of NO or whomever. Those things can be constructive. Comparisons of the Superdome to a slave ship? Accomplishes nothing.

innerSpaceman

09-08-2005, 10:04 AM

So this means you care nothing about the suffering of the people in NOLA, only that you'll be safer should there be some major disaster.

To me that isn't the point at all. I kind of thought the issue was what happened to those people and who might have prevented much of the suffering and death..
I've done what I can for the people of NOLA and Biloxi and Gulfport, et al., with all the cash I can spare, and unfortunately cannot afford to take time off to go there physically to lend a hand.

That's as walk as I can manage ... and with my chewing gum mouth, I'm gonna jaw about screw-ups up and down the line. I won't get very specific about the NO and LA governments because a) they are not accountable to me, b) I don't know enough particulars about them, and c) I have zero hope for them as they are consistently atop the heap as the most corrupt government entities in the entire United States, and that puts them beyond all redemption. Changing the players doesn't seem to help in that city and state, but I'm all for the mayor and the gov being lynched nonetheless.

I'm going to, instead, complain my guts out about horsesh!t-managed FEMA, crony-structured Fatherland Secuity, and witless, dipsh!t, clueless and feable George W. Bush. Without his puppet-masters' hands up his a$$, he has spewed forth with the most absurd and tone-deaf rantings I've ever seen from a U.S. president!

And I will admit that I'm in it partially to score political points. What?, I should pretend that Bush hanging out to dry on this one doesn't give me joy amidst the heartache? Feh, he's one of the few men I'd gladly kill with my bare hands, given the chance. So I won't shy away from admitting that I'm glad to see him get his comeupance for once, when he's gotten away literally with murder for all these years.

Nephythys

09-08-2005, 10:28 AM

I'm sorry- you actually think the drumbeat of hatred and violence and rage will carry anyone to successful political change?

Oh wait- are you going to try and tell me that is what my political idealogy is based on?

scaeagles

09-08-2005, 10:35 AM

And I will admit that I'm in it partially to score political points. What?, I should pretend that Bush hanging out to dry on this one doesn't give me joy amidst the heartache?

You see, that's completely honest and I respect that wholeheartedly. No hidden agenda, just right out on the table.

Nephythys

09-08-2005, 01:18 PM

Well- turns out it was NOT the Federal Dept of Homeland Security that turned away the Red Cross- it was the LOUISIANA Dept of Homeland Security......

wow- that just puts a whole new spin on that little attempt to slam the feds and puts yet MORE light on the LOCAL mismanagement-

Link (http://www.radioblogger.com/)

and video-
Link (http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09/07/garrettblanco/)

mousepod

09-08-2005, 02:12 PM

Major General Ansel M Stroud Jr of the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security served as a member of the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Advisory Board ("FEMA") representing the National Guard Association of the United States.

Major General Bennett C. Landreneau of the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security "is the immediate Past President of the National Guard Association of Louisiana and a member of the National Guard Association of the United States. He served as President of the Central Louisiana Chapter of the Society of American Military Engineers and the Louisiana Chapter of the Soil and Water Conservation Society. He is a member of the Governor's Military Advisory Commission, Louisiana Drug Policy Board, Louisiana Emergency Response Commission, City of New Orleans Mayor's Military Advisory Board, Louisiana Emergency Response Commission, City of New Orleans Mayor's Military Advisory Commission, the Board of Commissioners for the Orleans Parish Communication District and a member of the Executive Board of the New Orleans Area Council, Boy Scouts of America."

FEMA Director Mike Brown was fired from his previous job at the International Arabian Horse Association.

Brownie's doing a heck of a job.

scaeagles

09-08-2005, 02:25 PM

Very interesting quote from what Nephy posted -

"...what they have said consistently is, and what they told the Red Cross, we don't want you to come in there, because we have evacuees that we want to get out. And if you come in, they're more likely to stay. So I want your listeners to follow me here. At the very moment that Ray Nagin, the Mayor of New Orleans was screaming where's the food, where's the water, it was over the overpass, and state officials were saying you can't come in."

Hmmm.....

tracilicious

09-08-2005, 02:26 PM

Did anyone catch the Daily Show last night? I can always count on Jon Stewart to be there for me with humorous roasting of people who deserve it. In his segment, "Meet the F*ckers" he pointed out that the people who are always chanting that people just want to play the "blame game" are always the ones to blame. I wish I could marry that man.

tracilicious

09-08-2005, 02:30 PM

Who cares who failed. A failure of this magnitude is a failure to ALL of us. Everyone failed.

Actually, I can say with complete certainty that in the case of the Katrina mismanagement that I didn't fail at all. As a matter of fact, I had nothing to do with it. If I was one of the people stuck without food or water in the convention center than you bet I would care who failed. Or one of the people who lost a family member because of government screw ups. Those people deserve an answer.

tracilicious

09-08-2005, 02:36 PM

Morrigoon

09-08-2005, 02:36 PM

scaeagles: I can understand the line of thinking there, but again we have a major failure, not just of communication, but also this: if they wanted them to leave, they should have made leaving immediately possible.

Under their arguments, one would have to believe that someone let people die to set an example - in which case I think some arrests need to be made.

Cadaverous Pallor

09-08-2005, 08:55 PM

Five people have died of cholera. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/news.update/) I heard that they had open wounds in their legs and had walked through the nasty water.

I heard an interview today on the radio with people that are still sticking it out in NO. I found it very illuminating regarding why some people won't leave.

The men the reporter talked to boasted about how great their city was, because "you can eat on a dollar a day - 5 dollars will feed you for a week in NO." These people were poor and were used to squeezing the most out of what they had. Their living conditions weren't great to begin with. As a result, these people a) believe that they can overcome anything and b) feel such a hardcore connection with their city that they don't even contemplate leaving. Seeing what's happened to those that left probably isn't helping either.

One of the guys they talked to was sweeping away junk from a storm drain so that the water could go down easily as it was being pumped out. He was standing in the water and the reporter pointed out to him, obvious concern in her voice, that he had a bandaid on his foot. He said "yes, I know about the bacteria, I scrub my feet with hydrogen peroxide every time I get out of this water." He spoke like an intelligent human being...it was horrible to listen to, thinking that this man could very likely die.

In an earlier report I heard another reporter regarding the holdouts. He said he went into a home that was dank and filled with the stench of rot and found an old woman who had been to the horror of the Superdome...and decided she'd rather stay home than be there. The in-studio reporter asked him what these people were planning for the long term - can they eat MREs for 3 months? - and he said "these people just aren't thinking farther ahead than one day at a time."

What has happened there is every bit as horrible as anything we can imagine. These people are deer in headlights. I'm sure if you compared this to the Holocaust or Hiroshima people would be horribly offended that I'd speak this way about a natural disaster...but much of this suffering and DEATH was created by bureaucracy and clear-cut stupidity.

Everyone who voted to put off upgrading the levies should be fired. Everyone who decided not to have disaster drills at FEMA should be fired. Everyone who hired incompetent people to such important positions should be fired. Everyone who had anything to do with any of the millions of little snags that lead to the biggest slaughter in recent memory should be fired. They should all be fired and discredited and never allowed to work in their respective industries again.

And they should be happy that we don't stick their heads on pikes in front of every government building from Maine to Hawaii as a warning.

Name

09-08-2005, 09:40 PM

The sick part is, almost everyone that is involved with the decisions you mentioned, will get nice fat pensions when their done.

(all speculation, not based in fact at all, just my opinion based on past experience. i.e. the SD city council members that were found guilty in the strippergate stuff down here in SD are going to still receive nice pensions)

Scrooge McSam

09-09-2005, 10:45 AM

Maybe more "management" than "mismanagement", but anyway...

CNN reporting FEMA director Michael Brown being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts.

No link yet

scaeagles

09-09-2005, 10:46 AM

I hears the replacement will be the head of the Coast Guard's relief effort, but I can't remember his name.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-09-2005, 10:54 AM

You're doing a fine job, Brownie. Now get the hell out of the way.

Ghoulish Delight

09-09-2005, 11:08 AM

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/)

Reports are that Brown's resume was...embelished. As in, his previous position listed as "assistant city manager with emergency services oversight" was actually more like an intern position. Nice. This has been confirmed by a former mayor of the city he supposedly did this "emergency services oversight" work.

Scrooge McSam

09-09-2005, 11:10 AM

Notice he's not being fired.

He's just being sent back to Washington.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-09-2005, 11:27 AM

I have a feeling that pretty soon he will announce that he has "decided to spend more time with my family".

It also turns out that he wasn't the only one that was underqualified.

By Spencer S. Hsu
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 9, 2005; Page A01

Five of eight top Federal Emergency Management Agency officials came to their posts with virtually no experience in handling disasters and now lead an agency whose ranks of seasoned crisis managers have thinned dramatically since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

FEMA's top three leaders -- Director Michael D. Brown, Chief of Staff Patrick J. Rhode and Deputy Chief of Staff Brooks D. Altshuler -- arrived with ties to President Bush's 2000 campaign or to the White House advance operation, according to the agency. Two other senior operational jobs are filled by a former Republican lieutenant governor of Nebraska and a U.S. Chamber of Commerce official who was once a political operative.

Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/08/AR2005090802165.html)

Prudence

09-09-2005, 11:30 AM

My question:

When will we start seeing evidence of lessons learned and plans to handle things differently next time?

For example: do "mandatory evacuations" need to become more mandatory? If so, how to make that happen? There has to be a shift in the risk analysis before people will obey the orders. Not evacuating, even if the storm doesn't develop, needs to be worse than evacuating. I can easily imagine deciding that I'd been through bad storms before and survived, and that if I evacuate, I'll live in cramped, noisy quarters with several thousand of my closest personal friends, while my home is looted of anything valuable by those who remained behind.

Especially after this storm -- the Legend of the Superdome will linger and grow and evacuation will seem even less attractive.

So, since mobilizing support services after the storm appears expensive and time consuming, and because support services can't spend the entire hurricane season on alert, what can be done to make mandatory evacuation orders more attractive to follow?

(Also, if a functional solution is found, think about how disaster ready this nation would be. If systems were in place to quickly and relatively easily evacuate populated areas, if evacuated property were protected from looting or other human damage, if shelter areas were safe, sanitary, and as attractive as a shelter can be, and if these evacuations were, of necessity, practiced several times a year in different areas, we would be so much better able to respond to any disaster, whether natural or man-made.)

Cadaverous Pallor

09-09-2005, 01:14 PM

My question:

When will we start seeing evidence of lessons learned and plans to handle things differently next time?While I can't respond to the rest of your post, I can say that it seems that this horrific wake-up call really is waking people up. The city I work for has called in the Red Cross to give us a disaster preparedness meeting next week (focused on earthquake, of course). They set up three different meet times so we can all attend. It will include what to do when disaster strikes on the job and at home. I'll report on it later.

I'm sure similar things are happening everywhere.

Of course this has little to do with the specific response here, but I think that this kind of thing helps a lot.

scaeagles

09-09-2005, 01:45 PM

I am just wondering how anyone can be prepared for all possible scenarios.

I could store up tons of clean water. However, if I have to leave in a hurry, what good does having a couple hundred gallons of clean water do for me? Impractical to transport.

I could have a fire evacuation plan for my family if our house catches on fire. In fact, I do. However, if the fire starts in the garage, which two of my three children have rooms over, and happens to spread to the roof of the garage outside their windows and the hallway outside their rooms, I'm screwed. No way to get them out. (smoke alarms would alert me before the access was cut off, but I'm just hypothesizing about what could go wrong.)

I have several drivable evacuation routes from the city. However, pulling out of my driveway, I can only go two directions. What if my road is impassable?

I have some relatives and friends I can stay with locally. What if their homes are as drastically affected as mine is by some cataclysmic event - such as a nuclear bomb exploding?

There is no way for me to plan for every possible scenario. If I cannot plan for every possible scenario for my own family's well being and safety, how can the government of any locality be expected to do it for millions of people in a metropolitan area?

This is not to say that things could not have been done better pre and post disaster in Louisiana.

Gn2Dlnd

09-09-2005, 01:58 PM

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/)
Reports are that Brown's resume was...embelished. As in, his previous position listed as "assistant city manager with emergency services oversight" was actually more like an intern position. Nice. This has been confirmed by a former mayor of the city he supposedly did this "emergency services oversight" work.

However, a city spokeswoman told Time magazine that Brown had actually worked as "an assistant to the city manager."

(anybody watch "The Office?")

Morrigoon

09-09-2005, 01:58 PM

scaeagles: obviously it makes sense to plan for the most likely scenarios, and then have a general sketch of a plan for "unforseen" events, most of which you hope can take place under whatever the circumstances might be.

For example, in one thought I'd come up with elsewhere, I said that every city ought to choose locations, both within the metropolitan area and some on the fringe of it, designated as "disaster centers" Maps to these centers ought to be widely published in the front sections of phone books, just like stadium/arena seating is. Each location should be equipped with 2 generators in different spots (such as one on/near the roof, and one in the basement, etc). Each location should also be equipped with a portable cell antenna, which could be set up and hooked up to the generators to allow communications. Also, each location ought to have wireless internet access ability - so that emergency workers can race in, armed with laptops, and be able to keep communications open.

Every major metropolitan area ought to plan and designate a location for a "citizen volunteer" center. This would be a place that local people can report to in very short time in order to be the "first line" of help before properly trained help (nat'l guard, red cross, etc) can get there. One or two disaster response people should be assigned to the volunteer center to organize them and to communicate with more "official" groups and their leadership. That way, bands of volunteers can be dispatched out to help anywhere they're needed, and quickly. It would also be where people with enough to spare can make donations, which would help tremendously when there is a wait for outside help.

So let's say that a city (like here) expects earthquakes, but instead gets hit with... oh heck, let's say nuclear attack. All the city's disaster response locations are decimated. But you know what? People can go to the next city, look at a phone book at any public phone, and immediately know where to go for help.

It's unreasonable for every single agency of the government to try and make people learn every fact about something like this - but quite reasonable to only expect them to learn where to find the info they need. And phone books are everywhere.

Ghoulish Delight

09-09-2005, 02:01 PM

There is no way for me to plan for every possible scenario. If I cannot plan for every possible scenario for my own family's well being and safety, how can the government of any locality be expected to do it for millions of people in a metropolitan area?
Of course you can't prepare for everything. But this is a case of preparing for nothing. The events that happened in New Orleans played out almost blow-for-blow exactly as it was predicted. Heck, it happened once before in 1927, just ask Randy Newman. There have been YEARS to prepare for this exact scenario, and instead not one agency from the top to the bottom was prepared in the least.

Nephythys

09-09-2005, 02:05 PM

Ghoulish Delight

09-09-2005, 02:09 PM

FEMA did not become a beauracratic red tape nightmare under Bush and Brown.....when the alarm has been going off for 16 years it might be time to pay attention.Well, in 1994 it seemed progress had been made. I remember FEMA being very responsive and useful during the Northridge EQ recovery period.

Cadaverous Pallor

09-09-2005, 02:14 PM

It's a wake up call that has been going off since 1989 when Charleston complained about FEMA response after Hugo.

FEMA did not become a beauracratic red tape nightmare under Bush and Brown.....when the alarm has been going off for 16 years it might be time to pay attention.FEMA did a fantastic job during the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, when hundreds of homes and apartments were declared unlivable. Rescue, food, water, and shelter was there instantly. No one ever complained about the government response to that emergency on ANY level.

ETA - he beat me to it ;)

Nephythys

09-09-2005, 02:14 PM

Well, in 1994 it seemed progress had been made. I remember FEMA being very responsive and useful during the Northridge EQ recovery period.

seems like most of the complaints and issues have been focused on FEMA response in the south- hurricane response specifically.

Ghoulish Delight

09-09-2005, 02:40 PM

seems like most of the complaints and issues have been focused on FEMA response in the south- hurricane response specifically.Well then it's probably not a good thing that since Homeland Security got control of FEMA there hasn't been a single hurricane drill in the department.

Nephythys

09-09-2005, 03:02 PM

Well then it's probably not a good thing that since Homeland Security got control of FEMA there hasn't been a single hurricane drill in the department.

Probably not-though just as clearly this is a long term issue

Prudence

09-09-2005, 03:08 PM

While one can't prepare for every scenario, I believe that preparing for some scenarios (or even one scenario) develops a method of approaching disasters that can be applied to new situations.

innerSpaceman

09-09-2005, 04:19 PM

And yes, FEMA, like to admit it or not, Ms. Neph, was FANTASTIC during Clinton's terms, and sucked during both Daddy and Baby Bush's terms. Clinton went to Congress after his drastic upgrading of FEMA had been duly demonstrated to the nation and begged them to stop the practice of political appointments to the department, and to stick with the qualified personnel appointments that made the department a success under Clinton.

What happened under Bush? Mr. Arabian Horseman appointed head of the department that protects us in case of a disaster. Business as usual in Washington. But NOT under Clinton.

Now bow down and lick Clinton's boots like all you Republicans know you should!

Cadaverous Pallor

09-09-2005, 04:24 PM

Now bow down and lick Clinton's boots like all you Republicans know you should!This got a giggle out of me...and I hate Clinton :D

Morrigoon

09-09-2005, 04:39 PM

I can agree with you in hating Bush, but you cannot make me like Clinton.... or her husband ;)

innerSpaceman

09-09-2005, 04:45 PM

Like or not like, I challenge any Republican to admit to approving of anything done under a democratic administration.

I seriously and truly cannot think of a single thing done by Baby Bush during his presidency that I approve of, but if you've got any suggestions to lay before me - I will give my honest answer even if it means approving of something Little Georgie did.

Morrigoon

09-09-2005, 05:16 PM

iSm: remember what kind of Republican I am - small government. When was the last "small government" Democrat? Oh yeah... never! No wonder I don't approve of most democrat actions. That, and your legislators are whiny (man, I'd have had to throw out my tv if Lieberman got into office... 4 years of his ugly mug whining on the boob tube and I think I'd have to retreat to a Montana cabin).

But that's also why I've not been nuts about the recent Republicans. They're all Democrats with a bible thumping influence.

I want a goverment that will get the hell out of the way of business, my life, etc. I don't want them taxing me to death, or creating a prohibitive mess of regulations preventing small businessmen from entering the market (regulations have an effect of supporting the large corporations already operating), telling me who I may marry or what I may do with my own body, or giving all my hard-earned money away to someone who'll use any excuse not to work. Oh, and I'd like to see farm subsidies cut way back - if our farmers can't compete on the world market, then let's buy produce from the 3rd world countries who can produce it efficiently, and let us focus on things we do well. Besides, it'll make the economy better for those countries we buy from, which means we can send them less aid.

innerSpaceman

09-09-2005, 05:25 PM

Funny, and I think all Democrats govern like Republicans.

Puts the truth to your no-difference-tween-the-parties thesis, but I don't see any change in the wind any time soon.

lindyhop

09-09-2005, 09:29 PM

link (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html)

This is the emergency declaration Bush issued before Katrina, one day after the governor of LA declared a state of emergency. This authorized FEMA to coordinate efforts to deal with the storm. Despite this, the head of Homeland Security stated days later that FEMA was not in charge.

If you ran a business like this...it would be Enron.

scaeagles

09-09-2005, 10:29 PM

Like or not like, I challenge any Republican to admit to approving of anything done under a democratic administration.

Just so GD doesn't jump on me, I'd like to point out that I didn't bring Clinton into this thread.

Clinton - Kosovo, NAFTA - and I didn't even have to think hard.

FDR - his handling of WWII

Beyond that....hmmm.

Carter - absolutely nothing, to be sure.

Ghoulish Delight

09-09-2005, 10:32 PM

Motorboat Cruiser

09-09-2005, 10:38 PM

:eek:

And Brown still has a job because....

Because the only time you lose your job in this administration is when you dare question their actions.

Ghoulish Delight

09-10-2005, 04:08 PM

I have received an eye-opening account from the ground in New Orleans. This comes to me by way of a family friend who is an acquaintance of the authors, so I have very good reason to trust the source. It's a disturbing read.

The authors were attending a paramedics conference in NOLA. They, along with about 500 people who had been stuck in hotels in the French Quarter, spent 2 days trying to get out. In the process, they were refused water by the national guard, lied to by the police chief simply to move them out of his sight, shot at by police from neighboring citys because "the West Bank was not going to become New Orleans and there would be no Superdomes in their City", and had their encampments purposely destroyed by the wind of helicopter blades of a chopper from said same police department.

And all they wanted to do was get out of the city, something they are now trying to force people to do.

Among all of this, they made this poignant observation:

This was a process we saw repeatedly in the aftermath of Katrina. When individuals had to fight to find food or water, it meant looking out for yourself only. You had to do whatever it took to find water for your kids or food for your parents. When these basic needs were met, people began to look out for each other, working together and constructing a community.
If the relief organizations had saturated the City with food and water in the first 2 or 3 days, the desperation, the frustration and the ugliness would not have set in.

Here are a couple links with the account. The second's got some commentary and a little bit of defense because the authors ARE associated with some socialist organizations, which some people feel invalidates their story.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090805A.shtml

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006754.html

scaeagles

09-10-2005, 04:53 PM

And yes, FEMA, like to admit it or not, Ms. Neph, was FANTASTIC during Clinton's terms

Well, I can sure find one hell of a lot of info to say otherwise on two pretty large hurricanes that took place during his terms - Hugo, in South Carolina, and Andrew, in Florida.

Rather than post all of the info I could find absolutely blasting FEMA for their performance during these tragedies, here's a couple quick tidbits -

From Wikipedia -
"Hugo caused $7 billion ($9.4 billion in 2000 dollars) in damage in the US (plus $3 billion in the Caribbean). At the time it was the costliest hurricane in US history, but was exceeded in 1992 by Hurricane Andrew in south Florida. In South Carolina, which bore the brunt of the storm on the continent, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was slow in responding and Senator Fritz Hollings referred to them as "a bunch of bureacratic jackasses.""

Well, reforms were made. FEMA had only been under control of the Clinton administration for 9 months. So I'll cut him a bit of a break. Then came Andrew -

"Rarely had the failure of the federal government been so apparent and so acute. On August 24, 1992, Hurricane Andrew leveled a 50-mile swath across southern Florida, leaving nearly 200,000 residents homeless and 1.3 million without electricity. Food, clean water, shelter, and medical assistance were scarce. Yet, for the first three days, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which is responsible for coordinating federal disaster relief, was nowhere to be found. And when FEMA did finally arrive, its incompetence further delayed relief efforts. Food and water distribution centers couldn't meet the overwhelming need; lines literally stretched for miles. Mobile hospitals arrived late. In everything it did, FEMA appeared to live up to the description once given to it by South Carolina Sen. Ernest Hollings: "the sorriest bunch of bureaucratic jackasses I've ever known." "

So....a few years later, FEMA didn't do much of a better job. If anyone wants me to post the NUMEROUS links to news stories of suffering and incompetence, I gladly will.

So, no - FEMA was most assuredly NOT fantastic during the Clinton years.

Do I blame Clinton? No - I blame bureaucratic government that gets ever larger as more disasters hit.

Edited to add:
I will say that I think FEMA under Clinton did a fine job in Oklahoma City. Similarly, FEMA did a great job under Bush in NY post 9/11.

Cadaverous Pallor

09-10-2005, 05:20 PM

I just finished a quick conversation with a coworker who's a Republican. She blames the state and city gov'ts and won't blame Bush.

Watching those that designate themselves as Reps and Dems decide just who exactly is at fault and who is blameless is really angering me. I don't want to insult anyone here from either side, but I have to say this one more time:

Everyone fvcked up, and there is blood on the hands of Dems and Reps, Feds and State, high and low, from the cops to the President. Pretending that your pet section of gov't did everything they could won't make it true.

Sorry guys, but I'm just really, really angry right now.

Prudence

09-10-2005, 05:34 PM

To back up what CP said:

My father-in-law, who is so conservative he makes scaeagles and sleepyjeff look like hippies straight off the collective garlic farm, sent a long rant to my husband declaring that everyone in NO got exactly what they deserved, and that they had dozens of opportunities to evacuate, and that they should basically be left to die. Oh, and FEMA's doing a super job.

SacTown Chronic

09-10-2005, 05:36 PM

From Wikipedia -
"Hugo caused $7 billion ($9.4 billion in 2000 dollars) in damage in the US (plus $3 billion in the Caribbean). At the time it was the costliest hurricane in US history, but was exceeded in 1992 by Hurricane Andrew in south Florida. In South Carolina, which bore the brunt of the storm on the continent, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was slow in responding and Senator Fritz Hollings referred to them as "a bunch of bureacratic jackasses.""

Clinton was sworn in on January 21, 1993.

SacTown Chronic

09-10-2005, 05:39 PM

Everyone fvcked up, and there is blood on the hands of Dems and Reps, Feds and State, high and low, from the cops to the President.

Amen, sister.

scaeagles

09-10-2005, 07:28 PM

Oh good lord.....what was I thinking? Now i just feel like editing away that whole post. Feeling very stupid, and my apologies to all. (regarding Sac's post about my stupidity. Not that he called me stupid - he was quite polite about it. But wow I feel stupid. Don't know where my brain was. Guess that goes to the point of the elder Bush not doing well with it either.)

Motorboat Cruiser

09-10-2005, 07:30 PM

Clinton was sworn in on January 21, 1993.

Don't ya just hate little details like that. So sceagles, what was that about Oklahoma City again? ;)

Nice catch, Sac. :)

scaeagles

09-10-2005, 07:44 PM

I gotta say more. Wow, I'm sorry. Beyond stupid. I wish I could blame some sort of anesthesia was clouding my brain, but I don't think you'd buy that it was still in my system for 5 months.

ISM, really sorry to you.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-10-2005, 08:14 PM

Now, imagine how many other things about the Clinton/Bush administrations you might have wrong. You're gonna be on the left in no time!

hehe :)

scaeagles

09-10-2005, 08:21 PM

Yeah, this is probably going to stick with me for a while, huh?

Name

09-10-2005, 11:15 PM

I'm sure if you hired one of the repub spin doctors, they could figure out a way to spin it so it was clintons fault.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-11-2005, 12:00 AM

Karl Rove could fix this in no time.

scaeagles

09-11-2005, 07:20 AM

I was kidnapped and brainwashed by James Carville.

Gn2Dlnd

09-11-2005, 07:35 AM

Carville-jacked.

So, has anyone been reading the horrific accounts of time in the Superdome and convention center being posted by foreign tourists who are just getting home? Should I post? How about the dogs in NO now being shot to death by NOPD? Or the film of the woman being tackled in her own kitchen by "rescue workers?" Or are we just content to know that its all probably Mike Brown's fault, and since he's been fired all will be OK?

Just asking,
Snarky Snarkinson

Name

09-11-2005, 10:55 AM

ya, saw some video of the "search and rescue" guys on the news last night, looked a lot like a SWAT operation more then a search and rescue operation. I guess they are now forcibly evacuating people?

lindyhop

09-11-2005, 01:13 PM

Scrooge McSam

09-11-2005, 08:33 PM

I was kidnapped and brainwashed by James Carville.

Some people get all the breaks.

Nephythys

09-12-2005, 10:26 AM

Now bow down and lick Clinton's boots like all you Republicans know you should!

*snort*

Ha ha.....

wendybeth

09-12-2005, 11:40 AM

Bush Family vacation (http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4183488&a=31354641&p=72759968)

http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4183488&a=31354641&p=72759968
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4183488&a=31070225&p=72759968

Ghoulish Delight

09-12-2005, 12:58 PM

Well, Brownie's resigned. He did a heck of a job.

Morrigoon

09-12-2005, 01:22 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9315184/

Cadaverous Pallor

09-12-2005, 06:30 PM

I can't find a full text report of Brown's resignation speech. I want to know what he said.

Thank God he had the decency to step down.

Name

09-12-2005, 06:38 PM

try this...

http://www.cspan.org/executive/fema_brown.asp

Ghoulish Delight

09-12-2005, 06:43 PM

Brown basically said he was doing it to get the focus of him so people could focus on the continued relief effort. Word is even before Katrina he was planning on moving on in a couple months, so it was not a difficult decission for him to bail.

In other news, Bush is a lying ass.

Q Did they misinform you when you said that no one anticipated the breach of the levees?

THE PRESIDENT: No, what I was referring to is this. When that storm came by, a lot of people said we dodged a bullet. When that storm came through at first, people said, whew. There was a sense of relaxation, and that's what I was referring to. And I, myself, thought we had dodged a bullet. You know why? Because I was listening to people, probably over the airways, say, the bullet has been dodged. And that was what I was referring to.

Umm, what? Some more intrepid researches than I have been unable to find any media with any reference to "dodging a bullet". I myself listened to the radio constantly between the time Katrina veered east of the city and the time the levees were breeched. During that time, there was one consistent theme...that no one would know for hours whether the city was safe, that once the western edge of the system got over Lake Ponchatrain was when the real danger was. NO ONE was saying the city dodged a bulltet, EVERYONE was saying that the worst may yet come.

So at best, Bush was completely ignorant of what was going on and wasn't paying the least bit of attention. At worst, he's flattly lying to cover his ass.

Not Afraid

09-12-2005, 06:49 PM

So at best, Bush was completely ignorant of what was going on and wasn't paying the least bit of attention. At worst, he's flattly lying to cover his ass.

Not Georgie!

Too bad he's not up for re-election. I'd love to see him handed a can of whoop ass.

wendybeth

09-12-2005, 06:49 PM

Am I mistaken, or is he actually trying to blame the media for this one? He gets his information from FoxNews, and not scientific-type experts?

I eagerly await the sure-to-be-forthcoming blaming of Clinton by his sorry ass.:rolleyes:

scaeagles

09-12-2005, 07:45 PM

I already tried that. Didn't work for me.

wendybeth

09-12-2005, 07:57 PM

I already tried that. Didn't work for me.

Lol!

At least you have enough class to admit when you are wrong about something.:snap::cheers::snap:

Ghoulish Delight

09-12-2005, 07:58 PM

I already tried that. Didn't work for me.Weren't you just repeating something you heard on the airwaves?

scaeagles

09-12-2005, 09:16 PM

Weren't you just repeating something you heard on the airwaves?

Ummm...no. I wish I could blame the radio, but I haven't heard anything about FEMA under Clinton discussed. When ISM mentioned FEMA being "fantastic" under Clinton, I recalled hearing of mismanagement during Hugo and Andrew, so I did a google search on "hugo hurricane fema south carolina", and a similar one for Andrew. Just a bit off on the time line. Just a bit. A wee bit. OK, it was cranial rectumitis.

Ghoulish Delight

09-12-2005, 09:21 PM

Ummm...no. I wish I could blame the radio, but I haven't heard anything about FEMA under Clinton discussed.That doesn't stop Bush.

Ghoulish Delight

09-13-2005, 12:38 PM

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Be on the look out for suspicious horsemen. Bush has taken responsibility (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9324891/)!

innerSpaceman

09-13-2005, 01:00 PM

While I don't mean to diss him on this, it was the only avenue left open to him. His poll numbers crumbled and his wise advisers have told him to verbally mia culpa and throw (borrowed, national-debt-increasing) money at the recovery effort; to stage big hoopla recovery benefit agenda items that he can tout (while burying stingy recovery agenda detriment items like suspending minimum wage requirements).

The cost is now looking like $200 billion. That's twice as much as last week's estimate, so look for that to go up again. Protection from the hurricane would have cost a tenth of that. But what the hell, just add it to the national credit card that will never be paid off in our Empire's lifetime.

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 01:30 PM

I'm trying hard not to nit-pick here, but his shouldering of the burden of responsibility is not exactly unqualified:""To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said."

I own a business. Someone walks through the door and gets knocked out by the chandelier that has been hanging precariously for the past decade by mere wires. I know that the chandelier is gonna fall eventually, but it just costs so darn much to fix! Now, I can either go up to that person and say "I am soooo sorry- let's get you checked out right away and I'll notify my insurance agent!" Or, I can say "Hey, that was like that when I moved in! It's not my fault! Sue me!" until finally my intrepid attorney advises me to apologise, even though I am sure it wasn't my fault. So I say "I take responsibilty for what happened to the extent that I just happen to own this shop, and I am going to get nailed anyway. So, like, sorry and stuff".

And I wait at least ten days to do so.:rolleyes:

Ghoulish Delight

09-13-2005, 02:26 PM

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 03:06 PM

Oh believe me, I hardly consider this as absolving Bush. I'm more looking at it as a sign of just how bad things went. Bush freaking apologized. A severely late, and stupidly qualified apology, but an apology none the less. He never does that. Ever. I mean, normally he'd say, "Here's some money for your injuries, and isn't it great that we're moving forward and building a better chandelier."

Lol, GD!

I didn't interpret your first post as anything other than what you wrote above- I was just adding my take on his apology. I agree- look out for the Horsemen.:eek:

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 03:29 PM

What should he apologize for? He apologized for the failures of the federal government - "to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility." What else should he take responsibility for? The poor job of the state and local officials? The governor and mayor turning away supplies from the Red Cross so that the residents would not want to stay? Not using the busses to evacuate? Putting out an emergency plan months before that said in case of emergency you are on your own? Taking the money given to the state earmarked for strengthening the levee and using for other things?

Ghoulish Delight

09-13-2005, 03:31 PM

How about not ensuring that his executive order for FEMA to take control got carried out for starters.

Ghoulish Delight

09-13-2005, 03:35 PM

Actually, more to the point, when you spend several days denying everything, praising the guys in charge who screwed up, and covering your ass for being ignorant of the whole situation, no apology is acceptable. He's far too late for "I'm sorry". He's like a child who says "I'm sorry" but what they really mean is "I'm sorry I got caught".

Scrooge McSam

09-13-2005, 03:37 PM

Still, just the fact that he said it is pretty surprising.

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 03:38 PM

(Stops scanning the horizon for Equestrian Types)

After reviewing the text of his statement and then forcing myself to watch as he squirmed his way through the conference, I must say that I see no actual apology, unless Texans have a different way of doing so than the rest of the world. Taking responsibility (sort of) did happen, but there is no actual "I'm sorry"- not that I could find, anyway.

I asked myself if I would hold any Democrat up to the same standards, and I can honestly say no- I would hold them to higher. I just am prepared to accept any little bone this dork wants to throw our way, so desperate am I for any sign of humanity from him.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-13-2005, 04:09 PM

What should he apologize for?

I'm in the "too late for an apology" camp, (big surprise). The guy put a bunch of incompetent cronies in charge of our emergency response system then had the audacity to tell us that we are safer because of him.

Couple that with our porous borders and you literally have a disaster waiting to happen. Terrorists must be drooling after seeing how hard this hurricane has hit us economically and how ill-prepared we were. And thanks to Bush, they can pretty much walk right on in through Mexico if they so choose.

So no, I don't want an apology. I just want him gone. Sadly, I won't get my wish for three years though because somehow a blow job is an impeachable offense but this crap is just fine. (and yes, scaeagles, I know the charge was perjury, not oral sex. I just feel like venting)

innerSpaceman

09-13-2005, 05:06 PM

The real crime was that is was lousy oral sex.

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 05:10 PM

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 05:11 PM

The real crime was that is was lousy oral sex.

Well, he ruined a perfectly good cigar, too. Although, never having smoked one that was.....treated in that fashion, I guess that's premature for me to say.

Gemini Cricket

09-13-2005, 05:22 PM

Today, Bush admitted that his administration made a mistake.
It's their first one, isn't it?

;)

Motorboat Cruiser

09-13-2005, 05:42 PM

I find this to be quite enlightening. There is so much criticism of Bush for never admitting to mistakes or taking responsibility. So he says, literally, that he accepts full responsibility for the failings of the federal response, but that's not good enough. Now it's too little, too late. So why ever do it in the first place?

Hey, all I know is that it wasn't that long ago that he was talking about rebuilding Trent Lott's house and patting the director of FEMA on the back for a job well done. At that point, he was clueless. Now, two weeks later, after the damage was done, he "takes responsibility". Well, what about all of the other cronies in charge of FEMA? Why do they still have a job? I don't want to hear him say he takes responsibility, I want him to actually take it. And not by investigating himself either. I want to see a bipartisan investigation of every aspect of this failure, from the President and his appointees to the Governor and Mayor and everyone in between. This problem needs to be fixed quickly.

I'll wait to see what his actions are. If he does the right thing and really fixes this problem, then I'll cut him some slack. Right now though, it just seems like words spoken in an attempt to slow his plummeting ratings.

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 05:47 PM

To go along with ,y recent post of how all the governor and mayor can do is point fingers, now Governor Blanco is complaining that FEMA isn't collecting the dead fast enough.

Umm....would those be the dead that you failed to evacuate while they were alive? The ones you told in the published emergency plan that they were on their own? The ones that could have been taken out on the hundreds of busses that were available? Yeah - that's the feds fault, too.

Of course, it has just been announced that a large portion of the city - including the French Quarter and a large portion of the business district - will be open again to the public by the end of the week. I'd say that's moving pretty well. Of course, no credit should go to the feds - it's all too little, too late.

innerSpaceman

09-13-2005, 05:56 PM

MB makes a great point. While I really do think it's a good thing that Bush verbally accepts responsibity at his Buck-Stops-Here Oval Office desk, I would really like to see actions backing up those words. It is indeed one thing to say you take responsibility and another to actually take that responsibility.

I'll give him some time before judging him on that score, but cronyism would have to be wiped out of every federal agency, FEMA removed from the auspices of Homeland Security, tons more heads on pikes to spend more decapitated time with their families, financial directions reversed to fund disaster prevention instead of mop-up, and the emergency-preparedness of this nation drastically revised from top to bottom and demonstrated to be adequate to the task.

That would be responsibility. Other than that is platitudes.

And yeah, the Louisiana and New Orleans governments suck, too. But, as I'm from California, that's not my province of legitimate complaint. For the record though, I disapprove of the lametard way they handled this crisis.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-13-2005, 06:28 PM

Umm....would those be the dead that you failed to evacuate while they were alive? The ones you told in the published emergency plan that they were on their own? The ones that could have been taken out on the hundreds of busses that were available? Yeah - that's the feds fault, too.

Who is saying that this is entirely the Feds fault? Has anyone posted these arguments? I agree with iSm. I can't do anything about the Mayor of NO or the Governor of LA. That is up to the people that live there. My concern is, will we actually learn from our mistakes and fix a broken system...for real? I hope every Mayor and Governor in the US got a wake-up call here because I'm sure there is a hell of a lot more of them that are completely unprepared for a disaster.

But the federal government has to be prepared to step up immediately if things fail or get overwhelmed at the state and city level. They have to be prepared, authoritative, well-informed, and decisive. They were none of those things here and people died as a result, just like they died as the result of the Mayor and Governor's leadership. There is plenty of blame to go around and I think everyone understands that. So why does the right keep saying over and over again that we blame everything, including the hurricane itself, on the president?

That just isn't happening.

Ghoulish Delight

09-13-2005, 06:37 PM

What MBC said. I think if you go back and find my posts, you'll see a lot of things like "every level" and "from top to bottom" when I'm talking about what went wrong. I'll scoff nearly as loudly if and when I hear their appologies.

But 1) LA and NO officials have little to do with me and 2) I know little about their track records. So yeah, from my perspective, I really really hope that focusing on Bush will continue to wake people up to the fact that our country elected an ineffectual leader, to put it nicely, and that it won't happen again. It's not about right or left, it's about incompetance. And that fact that Georgie is admitting a mistake (notice he still hasn't said he himself made any mistakes, just that he takes responsibilities for other people's mistakes) when, as MBC points out, he has NEVER done that before shows just how badly things went. Because if he can stand in front of the world and continue to talk about Iraq in glowing terms, things have to really be well beyond "in the sh!tter" for him to do such a thing.

Scrooge McSam

09-13-2005, 06:59 PM

Of course, it has just been announced that a large portion of the city - including the French Quarter and a large portion of the business district - will be open again to the public by the end of the week. I'd say that's moving pretty well. Of course, no credit should go to the feds - it's all too little, too late.

Oh geez, you're killing me over here LOL

Why in the world would anybody need to congratulate Bush because portions of the city that only saw slight damage are re-opening?

OK... I'm game. I'll give it a shot.

Thank you, Mr. President, for insuring that the original French settlement that became New Orleans was constructed on high ground hundreds of years before your birth. Way to plan ahead there, guy!

Feel better? ;)

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 07:04 PM

There is no doubt that the state and local government dropped the ball here, but isn't that where FEMA is supposed to step in? When it's too big for the locals to handle, or the infrastructure is so damaged they can't? The entire Gulf Coast area was practically blown off the friggen map, and he was still on vacation..... Still, I suppose I should cut him some slack- after all, didn't the media say that everything was okay? (Still can't find where they said that, but I'll keep looking).:rolleyes:

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 07:22 PM

Oh geez, you're killing me over here LOL

Why in the world would anybody need to congratulate Bush because portions of the city that only saw slight damage are re-opening?

OK... I'm game. I'll give it a shot.

Thank you, Mr. President, for insuring that the original French settlement that became New Orleans was constructed on high ground hundreds of years before your birth. Way to plan ahead there, guy!

Feel better? ;)

Well, in that case, why is it the problem of the feds that so much of it was built below sea level? If it weren't, there would be no disaster. :p My post was primarily out of sarcasm - the thing that is frustrating to me is that the feds get no credit for anything that goes well, only criticism for what does not.

And actually, I find it sad that I expect that the feds should get any credit for anything that goes well. I am a states rights guy - but I am also a state responsibility kind of guy.

I take it upon myself to be as prepared as I can be. I honestly do not expect anything from the government should there be a disaster. I buy insurance - health, home, blanket liability. I have tried to be as prepared as possible by always having a few cases of water in the garage, the cars tuned up, etc. Can everyone afford to do this? Certainly not.

I expect my state to be prepared. I expect the city of Phoenix to be prepared. I do not expect that the feds should have to come rescue me.

This is why I have so much more disdain for the governor and mayor than i have concern about the preparedness of the feds. To me, it is about their lack of preparation rather than the feds being slower than they should have to respond. And to see them whining like the immature brats that they are makes me ill. "Where's the help?", screamed the mayor, while the people he failed are the ones requiring it. "why is FEMA so slow collecting the dead?", whined the governor, while the dead are there because of her irresponsibility.

To me, it isn't about whether the feds will be able to save me next time. To me, it's about the morons who were so unprepared that hundreds are dead because of it. And they themselves turned away much of the humanitarian aid (from the red cross) that they were whining wasn't there to help them.

That is what make me ill.

Ghoulish Delight

09-13-2005, 07:39 PM

I take it upon myself to be as prepared as I can be. I honestly do not expect anything from the government should there be a disaster. I buy insurance...
I expect my state to be prepared. I expect the city of Phoenix to be prepared. So what's the difference between you buying insurance and expecting your insurance company to fulfill the promise you paid them for should something befall your home that's too catostrpohic to pay for out of your own pocket vs. a state/state's residents sending tax money that fund FEMA and expecting FEMA to fulfill the promise to support them when something happens that's too catostrophic for them to handle?

Yeah, the state dropped the ball and didn't pay their deductible, but if your home colapsed tomorrow, would you rather your insurance company squabbled with you about deductibles that morning, or start the process of getting things taken care of and deal with that crap later?

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 07:55 PM

What was the state to do? Strong-arm the feds for the funding? Here is an article that lays out much of what I've been reading and hearing about these past few weeks: Did it have to happen? (http://keyword.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=times+picayune+levee+funding&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dd 3b036eb4cfc22c%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3 Dtimes%2Bpicayune%2Blevee%2Bfunding%26clickedItemU RN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.editorandpublisher.com %252Feandp%252Fnews%252Farticle_display.jsp%253Fvn u_content_id%253D1001051313%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSBoom%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.editorandpublisher.com %2Feandp%2Fnews%2Farticle_display.jsp%253Fvnu_cont ent_id%253D1001051313)

Scrooge McSam

09-13-2005, 07:59 PM

This is why I have so much more disdain for the governor and mayor than i have concern about the preparedness of the feds. To me, it is about their lack of preparation rather than the feds being slower than they should have to respond. And to see them whining like the immature brats that they are makes me ill. "Where's the help?", screamed the mayor, while the people he failed are the ones requiring it. "why is FEMA so slow collecting the dead?", whined the governor, while the dead are there because of her irresponsibility.

Isn't it funny how 2 people can read a situation so differently.

My take... A couple of year before the storm, the city's laid out the plan and it's insufficient. Right there in black and white. The city is telling the fed in no uncertain terms "We do not have the resources to handle a disaster of this magnitude". Period.

NO CITY ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH CAN HANDLE ITS OWN FORCED EVACUATION.

Try to imagine a forced evacuation of Los Angeles. Go on, try! Move on to New York and give it a good think. That one will bust your head open. Now we have options. We can fix these levees, but it's gonna cost a few million. I know "Freedom's on the march" and all and money's tight, but we could sure use it.

PanTheMan

09-13-2005, 08:02 PM

Bush Takes Responsibility....Good for him..... Now IMPEACH the Moron.

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 08:07 PM

Bush Takes Responsibility....Good for him..... Now IMPEACH the Moron.

We're gonna get along just fine, Pan.:cheers:

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 09:23 PM

So what's the difference between you buying insurance and expecting your insurance company to fulfill the promise you paid them for should something befall your home that's too catostrpohic to pay for out of your own pocket vs. a state/state's residents sending tax money that fund FEMA and expecting FEMA to fulfill the promise to support them when something happens that's too catostrophic for them to handle?

I mentioned I'm a states rights/responsibility kind of guy.

I look at the federal government - regardless of which party or who is in charge - and see incompetence. This is why I support a smaller federal government, and this is where GWBush has failed me. Sadly, the republicans are no longer the party of smaller government. I can't say the dems are either. I'd go libertarian if they didn't have primarily whackos as their candidates, but that's another story.

Scrooge mentions that no city can handle its own forced evacuation. How, then, are the feds to do it? The feds have no right to do it, and in fact weren't asked to help in the evacuation. I could be wrong - I have vague recollection that some help was requested 12 hours or so before it hit, but that's enough time? I would guess using the literally hundreds of busses might have been a good way to start helping those who couldn't get out. Yes, there was certainly traffic congestion trying to get out of NO, but there weren't people dying on the highways because they couldn't wait the traffic out.

The feds cannot be responsible nor expected to plan/prepare for the events can take place in any municipality. This is what local government is for. I believe that everything is managed - or at least should be - better at the local level.

Anyway, back to the GD quote -
The government is not an insurance agency. They have no obligation to protect me as an individual. There was a case a while ago - some may recall it, but I can't site the time period or even where - regarding a law suit of someone who had called 911, but the police didn't get there in time to prevent the crime. The supreme court, I believe - and again, it might have been an appeals court - ruled that the police force is not a private security force and cannot be expected nor required to be there in time to assist you in your time of need. There are broader implications of this rulig going across government.

And regarding the comparison to an insurance company, I would say the feds are acting a lot like one - bailing out a lot of people who would be losing everything. I don't think they are reneging on their commitment whatsoever.

While slow in response, the failure here was not on the part of the feds. It was on the part of the locals. Sure, I hope the next time they are faster, but I am not counting on it. Nor should anyone. It is a local responsibility.

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 09:24 PM

We're gonna get along just fine, Pan.:cheers:

Yeah, speak for yourself. :p I'm outnumbered enough around here already by all you liberal nutjobs. ;)

innerSpaceman

09-13-2005, 09:45 PM

State and local responsibility, blah, blah, blah. How much of your dollar earned does to state and local taxes, and how much goes to federal taxes?

Now tell me who should bear the burden of paying for the massive disaster management?

(though I will admit that it appears money going back from the feds to New Orleans for disaster prep was spent on something else. Feh, what else is new in the wonderful world of government? A pox on all their houses!)

Motorboat Cruiser

09-13-2005, 09:49 PM

Yeah, speak for yourself. :p I'm outnumbered enough around here already by all you liberal nutjobs. ;)

Obviously time for another Carville therapy session. The last one must not have been strong enough.

Here, lie down and take this pill. We'll have you chanting "universal health care for all!" in no time.

scaeagles

09-13-2005, 09:53 PM

Here, lie down and take this pill. We'll have you chanting "universal health care for all!" in no time.

One more reason to "just say no" to drugs.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-13-2005, 10:02 PM

What was the first reason?

wendybeth

09-13-2005, 10:12 PM

"You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to Motorboat Cruiser again."

Lol!
Scaeagles, I'm all for personal responsibility and smaller govt as well, primarily because I think if we had a smaller central government perhaps we wouldn't get into so much mischief abroad. The situation is that we do not have a small government and things are set up a certain way. We have to set aside personal preferences for another time- the system that is currently in place failed, and in a very big way. I hope you do not live on a fault line, or in a flood zone, or near a volcano, or anywhere the non-existant global warming may impact in a negative way.

SacTown Chronic

09-14-2005, 06:29 AM

Thank you, Mr. President, for insuring that the original French settlement that became New Orleans was constructed on high ground hundreds of years before your birth. Way to plan ahead there, guy!
That Bush guy is a genius!

What was the first reason?
Waking up after a drug binge and seeing Ann Coulter in bed next to you.

*shudder*

Scrooge McSam

09-14-2005, 08:00 AM

Scrooge mentions that no city can handle its own forced evacuation. How, then, are the feds to do it? The feds have no right to do it,

Wrong! Read the FEMA charter.

and in fact weren't asked to help in the evacuation.

Why in the hell does the FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY need to be asked to assist with an EMERGENCY situation that they have been placed in charge of?

We had a national disaster looking us in the face, one that could have been avoided with some federal government investment that never came, one that threatened to cost hundreds of live at least, threatened to destroy 1/4 of our NATIONAL natural gas supply network, threatened to destroy 1/5 of our NATIONAL petroleum supply network and threatened to cripple the NATION'S LARGEST INLAND PORT.

And you prattle on about how it's a local issue?

I have a vague recollection that some help was requested 12 hours or so before it hit, but that's enough time?

:rolleyes: Where do you get this stuff?

Blanco started the process of involving the fed on August 27th in a letter delivered to the President.

That's 2 days, Leo, not 12 hours.

The President actually declared a state of emergency on August 28th, a day later, clearing the way for FEMA to step in.

There is a very clear cut chain of events that must take place, and those events transpired, no matter how Bush's minions have tried to paint it.

I would guess using the literally hundreds of busses might have been a good way to start helping those who couldn't get out.

It would have. I'm sure state and local officials will answer for that.

alphabassettgrrl

09-14-2005, 09:53 AM

I did hear New Orleans used to be above sea level until they built the heavy modern buildings and then it sank.

Las Vegas is also having some issues concerning heavy buildings. Their water table is rising from all the weight.

Ghoulish Delight

09-14-2005, 09:57 AM

I don't think it was ever above sea level, but yes it was significantly closer to sea level. The whole "bowl" is nothing but silt deposited by thousands of years of flooding of the Mississippi. Once the city was built and the river leveed off, the silt began to compact and it was no longer replenished by regular floods.

innerSpaceman

09-14-2005, 10:54 AM

Kurt Vonnegut said a very amusing, but possibly perceptive, thing on the Daily Show last night. Something to the effect that the Earth's immune system is trying its best to kill us. We are indeed, as agent Smith wisely noted, a virus.

When it comes right down to it, the flooding of New Orleans and the ravishment of the Gulf Coast is all due to human development in those areas. We can blame the government for not shoring up the levees, but those levees are part of the problem. There is no ultimate solution to our benefit for these problems. They are manmade, and nature will trump man in the end.

jdramj

09-14-2005, 10:54 AM

Yeah, speak for yourself. :p I'm outnumbered enough around here already by all you liberal nutjobs. ;)

"You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to scaeagles again."

Dearest scaeagles,

I am here for you. I share your GOP-wishing for smaller government beliefs.

I too believe, that blame, if it truely needs to be placed upon anyone, starts at the local government level, but it is not limited to just them and goes uphill as well. It truely saddened me to see the pictures of the buses as they sat flooded over. What a vital lifeline those could have been, and what future problems could have been avoided if utilized from the start, along with other local issues.

I rarely have a good way about my arguing otherwise I would gladly join up in arms with you and defend against these "liberal nutjobs" (hehe he said nut jobs). Basically, I suck at getting my point accross and rarley attempt it for fear of looking like I really suck at this. (hehe I said suck-twice).

Just know you are not alone :snap: :snap:,

Best wishes,

jdramj
(now ducking....hehe dodging bullets)

Nephythys

09-14-2005, 11:59 AM

I just love one of the newest excuses for the buses- that Nagin can't get people out to work on a sunny day, they certainly won't work when a hurricane is coming.

According to Nagin- no one would drive the buses- uh huh, all those people and NONE of them would drive? What, is there a bus union that keeps non-union people from driving to get away from a hurricane?

Huh?

Gemini Cricket

09-14-2005, 12:55 PM

I don't understand why the Senate voted down a Katrina Commission...

Click (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_WASHINGTON?SITE=1010WINS&SECTION=POLITICS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-09-14-14-37-31)

Gn2Dlnd

09-14-2005, 01:28 PM

Yeah, speak for yourself. :p I'm outnumbered enough around here already by all you liberal nutjobs. ;)

Mmm, nutjobs. :drool:

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 01:35 PM

Obviously time for another Carville therapy session. The last one must not have been strong enough.

Here, lie down and take this pill. We'll have you chanting "universal health care for all!" in no time.

After this you want the government involved in health care??? It'll take a congressional hearing to get your emergency appendectomy approved!

Gn2Dlnd

09-14-2005, 01:43 PM

Oh Mori, Mori, Mori. The Katrina response is an example of the Bush admin's cronyism and classism, not an indictment of the U.S. government.

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 01:52 PM

Feh! The Katrina response is an indictment of the ineptitude of government on ALL levels.

Gn2Dlnd

09-14-2005, 01:58 PM

Well, in the interest of keeping roads paved and food safe, I'd like to keep the government, if you don't mind.

The pros and cons of dismantling the government would make an interesting new thread, though.

Ghoulish Delight

09-14-2005, 01:59 PM

Feh! The Katrina response is an indictment of the ineptitude of government on ALL levels.FEMA was well on its way to functionality (again I point to the excellent response to the Northridge quake) until it got slapped under Homeland Security and stripped of its cabinet level position. The head, who had made some good changes quit and was replaced with Browny. And here we are.

innerSpaceman

09-14-2005, 02:12 PM

The government is actually doing a lousy job of keeping roads paved and food safe. But who would you have replace them on those functions, Morrigoon.

Oh, and answer about food saftey first, if you wouldn't mind.

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 02:15 PM

I'm not suggesting the dismantling of government. In fact, in my last post, I erased a whole paragraph about the government having the responsibility to maintain roads, borders, and order. But when they overstep those bounds, they introduce inefficiencies which translate into waste or mismanagement.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been responsible for getting those people out, certainly they were (maintain order), but the fact is, they DIDN'T DO IT. They had busses sitting right there, they had the knowledge that the city could be flooded, they had research that showed a flooded New Orleans would be a toxic disaster. They didn't do it.

These are not the types of people I want in charge of my health care.

In fact, the only form of "universal health care" I'd support would take the form of insurance. Unfortunately, that still gives the gov't a dangerous level of control over the health care industry, making it less profitable, and therefore, discouraging any kind of innovation or quality.

But I'm going way OT here, sorry.

FEMA was very clearly incompetently led. But this is still an indictment of government at all levels. There never should have been that many people for FEMA to have to come rescue in the first place. The way Louisiana mishandled the hurricane Ivan evacuation, plus the mishandling of the Katrina one both led to there being far more people in NO than there should have been. Some by choice, remembering the hassle of trying to leave the city last time, and some by circumstance, being too poor to leave unless the city busses were used.

There was no organization of the effort either. Had there been concrete plans in place for busses and citizens to meet at specified locations in the city, to be transported out of there, both the city and the citizens could have acted quickly, way in advance, to clear out. None of that happened. People were sent to locations that took days for authorities to become aware of, with no supplies, no communication, nothing.

You can't blame Bush for not knowing there were people at the convention center. Whoever sent people there (governor?) should have made sure that rescue organizations were aware. If the convention center had been a pre-planned shelter or gathering point, then the governor's office could have kept information on those locations on file to email to FEMA well in advance of the storm actually hitting the city.

But I *do* wonder at FEMA not staging trucks and rescue units... I'd like to hear more on the chain of command and communication that would/should have led to that happening.

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 03:00 PM

Okay, even though this article is called "How Bush Blew It", it's really quite an interesting insight into the entire multi-level mess.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434/

All I can say is Kathleen Blanco needs to be removed from office, pronto.

Scrooge McSam

09-14-2005, 03:46 PM

All I can say is Kathleen Blanco needs to be removed from office, pronto.

And do you have the same opinion about President Bush?

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 04:01 PM

Scrooge: What, you'd prefer Cheney?

Scrooge McSam

09-14-2005, 04:19 PM

He he Actually, neither of them.

And please don't think I'm picking on you, because that's not my intent. I've just noticed a trend among a few that will state the inadequacies go right on up the line, will bash Blanco and Nagin to high heaven, but are curiously silent when it comes to the fed's role in all this.

scaeagles

09-14-2005, 04:23 PM

I hope you don't mean me, my dearest Scrooge. I have plainly said that the deficiencies of the feds are apparent and appalling, and urged the resignation of Brown as an unqualified boob. I bash Blanco and Nagin because I still - and always will - view this as primarily and issue of ineptiutude of local government making things so much worse than they need to have been.

Scrooge McSam

09-14-2005, 04:30 PM

No, Leo. Your castigation of Blanco and Nagin has been harsh and a bit overplayed in my opinion, but you've made it clear you're not pleased with the fed response either.

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 04:36 PM

I think I've made it clear that I am most certainly NOT satisfied with Bush's performance. He nearly didn't get my vote this last go-round except that I hated both candidates and chose the devil I knew over the devil I didn't.

wendybeth

09-14-2005, 04:41 PM

One of my co-workers has a husband who is a firefighter. He volunteered to go down to the South with a contingent of Spokane area firefighters, and his reports from the field are pretty unpleasant. First, they had to fly into Atlanta and get shots like the ones you get if you are going into Africa or any of the tsunami areas. He is near Biloxi, an area he was very familiar with, and he said it's just pure destruction- pictures cannnot begin to convey the devastation. We also have a nephew who is in NO with the military, and he has contracted some funky skin rash and is sick, although they don't know with what yet.

I'd heard on the day before the hurricane struck that the airport had closed and public transport was not running. It sounds like the locals cut and run, although time will tell if it's a case of them running or being ordered, but what a shame. So many more people could have and should have been able to get out.

wendybeth

09-14-2005, 04:59 PM

Well, this little article gives a bit of insight into why the levees may have not been up to snuff:Levee Board corruption charges (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/)

Scrooge McSam

09-14-2005, 04:59 PM

Scrooge: What, you'd prefer Cheney?

You didn't answer my question. ;)

Do you think Bush should be removed from office?

Morrigoon

09-14-2005, 05:08 PM

I think that makes my answer perfectly clear. If Bush were removed, we'd have Cheney, which would most likely be worse. Do I think Bush ought to be in office? No, but neither did I think the jokers he was running against ought to either. Would it be appropriate to remove Bush? Possibly, debateable, but possibly. Would it be wise to remove him? Um... no, not given the alternative.

Am I likely to be satisfied with any of the candidates in the next election? I'm not holding my breath, let's put it that way.

Motorboat Cruiser

09-14-2005, 05:08 PM

One of my co-workers has a husband who is a firefighter. He volunteered to go down to the South with a contingent of Spokane area firefighters, and his reports from the field are pretty unpleasant.

Your mention of firefighters reminded me of this story (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197).

ATLANTA - Not long after some 1,000 firefighters sat down for eight hours of training, the whispering began: "What are we doing here?"
As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.
On Monday, some firefighters stuck in the staging area at the Sheraton peeled off their FEMA-issued shirts and stuffed them in backpacks, saying they refuse to represent the federal agency.

-snip-

"They've got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified," said a Texas firefighter. "We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet."

-snip-

Roy Fire Chief Jon Ritchie said his crews would be a "little frustrated" if they were assigned to hand out phone numbers at an evacuee center in Texas rather than find and treat victims of the disaster.
Also of concern to some of the firefighters is the cost borne by their municipalities in the wake of their absence. Cities are picking up the tab to fill the firefighters' vacancies while they work 30 days for the federal government.
"There are all of these guys with all of this training and we're sending them out to hand out a phone number," an Oregon firefighter said. "They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste."
Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.
But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.

Scrooge McSam

09-14-2005, 05:11 PM

I understand now. Thanks!

Am I likely to be satisfied with any of the candidates in the next election? I'm not holding my breath, let's put it that way.

Sister, you said a mouthful there.

wendybeth

09-14-2005, 05:17 PM

Holy crap, MBC- I'll have to check if Bill was in that group! He left while I was on vacation, so it's quite possible. He doesn't have a lot of patience with that sort of thing- it would truly suck if he went all the way down there to help out and had to go through the stuff described in that article.

Gemini Cricket

09-14-2005, 05:30 PM

Bush approval at lowest level of his presidency (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9332076/)
Moreover, fewer than half those surveyed approve of the way in which Bush has dealt with the hurricane, and a whopping three-fourths believe the United States is not prepared for a nuclear, biological or chemical attack.
Me thinks we'll be catching Bin Laden any day now...
;)

innerSpaceman

09-14-2005, 05:50 PM

From today's New York Times:

[concerning 34 seniors citizens found dead inside St. Rita's Nursing Home in New Orleans] "At St. Rita's, 34 seniors fought to live with what little strength they had as the lights went out and the water rose over their legs, over their shoulders, over their mouths. As Gardiner Harris wrote in The Times, the failed defenses included a table nailed against a window and a couch pushed against a door.

Several electric wheelchairs were gathered near the front entrance, maybe by patients who dreamed of evacuating. Their drowned bodies were found swollen and unrecognizable one week later, as Mr. Harris reported, 'draped over a wheelchair, wrapped in a shower curtain, lying on a floor in several inches of muck.'

As Louisiana's death toll spiked to 423 yesterday, the state charged St. Rita's owners with multiple counts of negligent homicide, accusing them of not responding to warnings about the hurricane. 'In effect,' State Attorney General Charles Foti, Jr. said, 'I think that their inactions resulted in the death of these people.' "

Lest we reserve our ire for Brown, Blanco, Bush and Nagin (hey, how did a name starting with "N" get in there?), there are tons of other disgraceful elements of blame to go around for decades to come. There's going to have to be a new and separate circle of hell created especially.

Gemini Cricket

09-14-2005, 06:12 PM

If I thought like a Republican, I'd say Bush should be impeached. They impeached other presidents for less...

Ghoulish Delight

09-14-2005, 09:34 PM

Me thinks we'll be catching Bin Laden any day now...
;)Coincidence that all of a sudden there are reports that he's been seeking medical attention for some undisclosed ailment?

Name

09-14-2005, 10:02 PM

guess his dialysis machine isn't working as well anymore. or maybe he got "the call" from the white house staff; but not from bush himself, must maintain plausible deniability.

Gn2Dlnd

09-14-2005, 11:31 PM

At St. Rita's, 34 seniors fought to live with what little strength they had as the lights went out and the water rose over their legs, over their shoulders, over their mouths. As Gardiner Harris wrote in The Times, the failed defenses included a table nailed against a window and a couch pushed against a door.

Goddamn.

Gn2Dlnd

09-15-2005, 02:39 AM

According to Knight-Ridder:
The federal official with the power to mobilize a massive federal response to Hurricane Katrina was Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, not the former FEMA chief who was relieved of his duties and resigned earlier this week, federal documents reviewed by Knight Ridder show.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12637172.htm

Gn2Dlnd

09-15-2005, 03:11 AM

I kept thinking that this whole thing reminded me of something, something a long time ago...

“I don’t think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon, that they would try to use an airplane as a missile.” - Condoleeza Rice

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/17/attack/main509471.shtml

Nephythys

09-15-2005, 10:17 AM

If I thought like a Republican, I'd say Bush should be impeached. They impeached other presidents for less...

uh huh- I hear Dems call for impeachment daily...hardly a GOP only tag line

Gemini Cricket

09-15-2005, 04:37 PM

Wanda Sykes on Leno about Bush taking the blame for the Katrina response:

Wanda: "I don't think the President should have taken responsibility.... I don't blame the President. I blame the American people. Y'all knew the man was slow when you voted him in. You can't blame the blind man for wrecking your car when you're the one who gave him the keys."

lol! :D

Gemini Cricket

09-15-2005, 06:51 PM

Someone just emailed this to me:

When asked what his position was on Roe vs. Wade, George W. Bush answered, "I don't care how people get out of New Orleans."

wendybeth

09-15-2005, 08:45 PM

I owe you some mojo, GC.:snap:

PanTheMan

09-15-2005, 08:59 PM

Someone just emailed this to me:

When asked what his position was on Roe vs. Wade, George W. Bush answered, "I don't care how people get out of New Orleans."

:snap: lol :snap:

PanTheMan

09-15-2005, 09:05 PM

uh huh- I hear Dems call for impeachment daily...hardly a GOP only tag line

BUT, the GOP are the only ones who did it , now weren't they? Perhaps if the GOP didn't bring the entire Government to a GRINDING halt over a BJ for 3 years, and all were busy Governing, we MIGHT have been able to see 9/11 coming.

Gn2Dlnd

09-15-2005, 09:36 PM

uh huh- I hear Dems call for impeachment daily...hardly a GOP only tag line

So, aside from a Zogby Poll (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1007) indicating that 42% of voters say they would favor impeachment proceedings if it is found the President misled the nation about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, bloggers, and the occasional highly influential Disney-fan message board geek, I'm unable to find any evidence of a concerted Democratic effort to have Bush impeached.

You may, of course, do your own google search to see if there have been any GOP impeachment efforts lately. I'm sure it would make an interesting new thread. Please include links.

Thanks so much.

wendybeth

09-15-2005, 10:34 PM

Oh, they're still pissed about Watergate. :rolleyes:

scaeagles

09-16-2005, 11:04 AM

I am.....depressed. Many of you may not agree with my reasoning, but many will also be shocked by what I am saying.

My major criticism of Bush has always been that he spends money. Lots of money. Too much money. Granted, all spending bills originate in the House, but he's got a veto pen. He hasn't vetoed anything, much less a spending bill. So what does he do last night? He basically promises everyone everything. This is nothing but an attempt to buy his way out of political trouble for the slow response to the disaster. And as everyone here knows, I don't hold the feds responsible for most of the damage, delays, or death. I know there is debate on it, but that's not my point.

In Mississippi, the governor has made it well known that he expects insurance companies are going to take care of everything. If insurance policies were purchased, then the damn well better. But with Bush promising the farm in LA, that incentivizes delays by insurance companies.

I am not meaning to sound insensitive. Help is one thing. Disaster aide. Relocation assistance. But to promise to rebuild it better than it was before? To eliminate poverty from the region? How the hell can anyone do that? Some 5 trillion dollars of wealth transfers over the last 50 years hasn't done squat to eliminate it.

I have lost all hope of the vision of Reagan for smaller federal government. With the SC eliminating states rights and an ever stronger federal government pulling the purse strings, there is no hope any longer.

I am completely disillusioned. Hopefully Carville won't have a chance to nab me again, because I'd be pretty vulnerable to being brainwashed right now.

The sad thing is I know the dems would be no better about it. So where to go? It is most certainly now, for me, the lesser of two evils. I have no hope any longer. The republicans have had power in the House and Senate for over a decade, with a Republican President for half of it. Yet the spending continues to increase, the promises of taking care of the populace continue to increase (not just this, but stuff like medicare prescription coverage, etc), and government grows ever bigger.

I want to puke.