Societal norms, the Moral Majority and a rant that feels so good [Archive]

SacTown Chronic

10-31-2005, 11:59 AM

Dear Moral Majority and those who feel the need to tell me how to live my life,

Fvck you. You say you have the answers but who asked you anyway? Don't you fvcking dare judge me based on how you live your life. You don't know me. You don't know what's in my heart. You don't know my wife. You do not understand that she's twice the spouse and ten times the parent that you are. I don't judge your personal life, mother****er, so stop judging mine.

I suggest you clean your side of the street before coming over and telling me that you think my side is dirty, you worthless hypocrites. I'm happy with who I am. I'm happy with my wife and I'm more in love with her now than ever. I'm proud of my kids. My family makes this world a better place so I don't need you getting in my face with your values and your opinions. Dig? Am I getting through to you? Cause here's the rub: I don't give a shiit what you think. I live to honor my wife and my children, not you. So take your cracked, uptight ass and walk.

There, I feel much better. Thanks for listening.

Disclaimer: This is not directed at any of you swanky LoT'ers. It's me venting about a bit of human ugliness that Crystal and I encountered this weekend.

Kevy Baby

10-31-2005, 12:10 PM

Sac:

Ya gotta stop beating around the bush on these things. If ya got something to say, just come out and say it!

Seriously; I am curious what ugliness (besides the usual myoptic one-sidedness of the [im]Moral [not a] Majority) were subjected to.

Gemini Cricket

10-31-2005, 12:21 PM

SacTown Chronic

10-31-2005, 12:28 PM

Kevy, basically it was a couple telling us that the inner workings of our marriage are wrong because it is different than their marriage. Does that make sense?

It wasn't so much that they wanted to force their morals on us (as if they even know what our morals and standards are) as it was that they looked at our marriage, noticed it was different than their marriage and decided we were living wrong and they needed to tell us. And of course they went about it the wrong way and went from 0 to self-righteous in 5.3 seconds. It burns my ass because our marriage is really, really strong and i don't need these a-holes taking a superficial look at our life together and telling us how to live our lives.

It's been bugging me and I suspected that venting would help me get over it. And I can already feel the healing begin (but that might just be GC's prayers kicking in).

Kevy Baby

10-31-2005, 01:27 PM

I actually enjoy meeting people like that, engaging them in conversations and ending showing (in a very polite way), how hypocritical they are. Done it a couple of times on the gay marriage issue and once recently when someone started bashing "fringe" non-Judeo-Christian religions (such as, oh I don't know: Wicca). I derive great pleasure from it and enjoy making the other person feel like an idiot. Nothing so fun as using somebody's own arguments against them.

Alex

10-31-2005, 01:29 PM

I think we don't do enough judging of other people and when we do, we don't do it correctly. First, too many of us expect the government to endorse our judgements which is wrong. And another too many of us feel that just because we have judged someone and decided we don't want to interact with them that it is important that this person be told that they've been judged and found lacking.

There are a lot of people I don't like because of the way they behave (and frequently it is for doing things that I consider pefectly acceptable personal decisions: such as heavy recreational drug use), I just don't feel it necessary to tell them about it. So, the fact that I don't approve doesn't mean I expect them to change. I just don't socialize with them.

But societal norms for public interaction are important and judging is important.

Kevy Baby

10-31-2005, 01:29 PM

SacTown,
I'll pray for you.
You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to Gemini Cricket again.

1

Kevy Baby

10-31-2005, 01:43 PM

I think we don't do enough judging of other people and when we do, we don't do it correctly.I disagree (with the first part). I think that too many people rush to judgement of others based solely on their own limited perspective. A person might judge a couple that is engaged in a small argument as having a troubled marriage. In reality, the couple may very well have a very stable, healthy marriage. It is normal to have disagreements and it is healthy to discuss them. And it is healthy to occassionally let one's emotions get the best of them. (Definitely not even thinking that was the case of the OP; just using this as a random example to support my argument.)

Also, I think that people have a propensity to judge others when in reality it is just their own, often dis-owned, issues that are coming to light. If somebody is often seeing others as loud mouths, the probability is fair that the individual making those accusations is her/himself a blow-hard.

One of the largest issues I have with many organized religions is their self-view of the world. They often believe that their way is the ONLY way (often ultimately having nothing to do with spirituality, which is what religion is all about), and that all others must be quelled.

wendybeth

10-31-2005, 01:57 PM

I agree with KB- there is too much judging, too much meddling and too many sanctimonious assholes running around proclaiming that their way is the only way. I suppose that's human nature, and the reason for the admonition of "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Name

10-31-2005, 02:02 PM

What they don't realize is, my way is the only way.....

Not Afraid

10-31-2005, 02:03 PM

And another too many of us feel that just because we have judged someone and decided we don't want to interact with them that it is important that this person be told that they've been judged and found lacking.

Well, it may become self-evident when I've decided that a person's actions are "too stupid or their resulting behaviour too obnoxious" in my judgement for me to want to be around them, but I usually will try not to say something overtly - unless a particular situation calls for it.

I agree with what you said about behaviour completely. Everyone lives different types of lifestyles. There are some I agree with and other I do not. I've usually base my negative experience on my own personal experience and not one of a "higher morality". But, usually, it just gets down to people acting like idiots and i judge that I don't want to be around them.

So, judging IS important for me and my sanity. I just don't keep people around me that I judge to be "too stupid". Granted, deeming someone "too stupid" is a pretty indulgent determination, but....that's all I've got to go on.

Alex

10-31-2005, 02:04 PM

Hey, by no means am I saying that people are necessarily good at judging others. Judging does not make one right. But we all do it and people have gotten mighty screwed up about what the right way to do it is, primarily by expecting the government to enforce our individual views on what proper behavior is. Also, the scope has gotten out of whack.

Somehow we have turned it around to where it is more acceptable to judge private behavior than public behavior.

I'm a very judgmental person, I just don't think my judgments should carry much weight with other people and simply try to use them to decide how I will live my life.

My problem with most organized religions (and most of the unorganized ones) is their insistence on the existence of a supernatural realm.

wendybeth

10-31-2005, 02:07 PM

Perhaps the reason why we see so few examples of correct judging is that the only correct way to do so is to refrain from doing so.

Did that make any sense? Lol- the cold meds are kicking in!

Prudence

10-31-2005, 02:08 PM

I don't necessarily think that judging is wrong, but in most cases it needs to be an internal act. I do think that we might benefit, as a society, if more people paid more attention to how others act and what consequences follow from those actions. Perhaps if more people noted that Action A tends to lead to Negative Consequence B there would be fewer people participting in Action A.

However, as I noted, that is in most cases appropriate as an internal exercise. I can observe Action A and evaluate it silently to myself. I can discuss Action A with my spouse back home later. And if I had children and if they happened to see Action A, it would be a really good idea to discuss that later as part of their education.

Baring any immediate threat to life or property, however, there is likely no need for me to approach those participating Action A and tell them that I don't approve. They neither need nor want my approval, and while I'm busy sticking my nose in, someone else is observing the negative consequences of my actions and making notes to tell their family later.

Scrooge McSam

10-31-2005, 02:11 PM

Dammit Prudence.... This place doesn't make enough mojo for you to keep posting like this.

Alex

10-31-2005, 02:19 PM

Crystal

10-31-2005, 02:24 PM

SacTown, baby, I Love You!

What happened over the weekend has really left me depressed. The people we've had a falling out with have been friends for many years. The wife became aware of my bi-sexuality, something she heard through the grapevine, and now has a need to put me down and treat me as though I am immoral.She feels the need to "save" me and told me I will regret the choices I have made in my personal life. Personally, I feel it really is none of her business, but because we have been friends for so long, it is really difficult to get past this. She is judging mine and SacTowns entire relationship on this one thing that she disapproves of.

SacTown and I have the strongest marriage of anyone I know. We have been married for 10 years, together for 15, and friends for 20. We are open and honest with each other, committed to our family and have strong morals and family values.We rarely argue, but engage in mature conversation in regards to any differences we may have. It really bothers me that someone who has little knowledge of the intricate workings of our marriage, someone who has enough marital problems of their own, should choose to judge us in this way.

Sorry for the long winded post, but, whew, I feel better already. Thanks!

Ghoulish Delight

10-31-2005, 02:26 PM

Somehow we have turned it around to where it is more acceptable to judge private behavior than public behavior.

I'm a very judgmental person, I just don't think my judgments should carry much weight with other people and simply try to use them to decide how I will live my life.Those two statements sum up my feelings exactly. Sure, I have a set of morals that I believe to be "right" that I live my life by, but I apply those morals to myself and do not expext others to abide by them. I definitely think they should, but I certainly am not so arrogant as to think that I've got all the answers and that it's my place to tell others how to live. Especially when it comes to things that are private decissions. If we're talking about public behavior that has some effect on other people, I'm more vocal about my judgement. But even then, at most I'll say my peace once and they can take it or leave it. If they leave it, like Alex, I make MY decission whether whatever it is is something that will keep me from socializing with them. But that's my decission, I don't expect the person to change.

Scrooge McSam

10-31-2005, 02:35 PM

Welcome back, GD and CP!!!!!

blueerica

10-31-2005, 02:44 PM

It really bothers me that someone who has little knowledge of the intricate workings of our marriage, someone who has enough marital problems of their own, should choose to judge us in this way.

I'm sad to hear that it came from someone you have known and been friends with for such a long time. I don't mean to judge her in return, but chances are, she's so outspoken because of her own insecurities in her marriage. When you can't lash out at yourself, lash out at the nearest person.

Sorry for the long winded post, but, whew, I feel better already. Thanks!

:D

Should we all be so lucky to have a well-working marriage such as yours & Sac's !!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

wendybeth

10-31-2005, 02:52 PM

To refrain from judging is to have a life with no boundaries.

Is it wrong to stop hanging out with Bob because he's cheating on his wife? That's judgement. Is it wrong to not let your son spend the night at Greg's house, because Greg sells pot at school? That's judgement.

The only right way, in my opinion, to judge private behavior in others is through personal behavior of your own. There are two ways to judge public behavior in others: either you behave as you would with private behavior or society collectively decide on civil punishment (as we do with murder, rape, burglary, etc.). My personal libertarian view is that we've expanded societal civil punishment beyond its useful boundaries not just in the public sphere but into the private sphere where it doesn't belong at all.

But I have a strong moral ethic (just not a standard one) and I am constantly judging others by it and choose not to associate with those who fall too far from it. To not judge is to say that there is no such thing as right and wrong. I just say that not everything is a matter of right and wrong.

I don't know what the marital structure is in the OP, so I have no idea whether I think it falls into the category of something I would judge. But probably not.

You're right- perhaps I should have said "refrain from articulating certain types of judgements", which is something I do all the time. I can't help but make judgements, but I can keep quiet about them if I think it is crass, rude, impolite, etc, to pronounce them. I won't let Tori listen to Britteny Spears, as I consider her an ignorant skank, but I told Tori it's because she is too young to hear her music. Same thing when I deem someone stupid- I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, and when I am proved right I simply maneuver away from them so I don't have to be irritated all the time- I don't tell them that I think they are stupid, though.

Kevy Baby

10-31-2005, 03:18 PM

The people we've had a falling out with have been friends for many years. The wife became aware of my bi-sexuality, something she heard through the grapevine, and now has a need to put me down and treat me as though I am immoral. She feels the need to "save" me and told me I will regret the choices I have made in my personal life. Personally, I feel it really is none of her business, but because we have been friends for so long, it is really difficult to get past this. She is judging mine and SacTowns entire relationship on this one thing that she disapproves of.I suspect that most of what is upsetting about this is that these people who are your friends have suddenly changed their view of the two of you and yuo have seemingly lost a friend. This change in view was based on a rumour/detail/whatever that appears to be true. If her moral line of demarcation (because of religious/personal/whatever beliefs) indicates that bi-sexuality is unacceptable to her/them (not sure how much the husband was involved), then that is her choice. If she believes that this act (it may be more than the bi-sexuality - it may be more the lack of monogamy in the marriage; many people believe that "open marriages" do not work) means that she does not want to associate with you, then that is her prerogative. Yes, it hurts and yes, it sucks. But her choice is hers to make. The way she acted (preachy, etc.) may have been pretty crappy, but would you rather she say these things to your face or behind your back?

I am not saying this to go against the nature of what happened (you and Sac are wonderful people and you have great kids, so you must be good parents), but to just to look at the whole picture. I am sorry that this person has these narrow views and was compelled to thrust them in your face. I were in your shoes, I am not sure I would WANT such a closed minded-person as a friend!

I am very sorry for the two of you and the shiity situation!
SacTown, baby, I Love You!Does Mickey Lumbo know about this?

Name

10-31-2005, 03:24 PM

I think their just jealous......

Capt Jack

10-31-2005, 03:45 PM

Perhaps the reason why we see so few examples of correct judging is that the only correct way to do so is to refrain from doing so.

Did that make any sense?

yup. while Im not terribly religious, there is one quote Ive learned to live by

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Most who do judge others with abandon are loathe to have the mirror held up to them as they're afraid of what they'll see. Its just sooo much easier to cast judgement on someone else than to look at ones self objectively and critique self first, others second. A great many people I think simply cant. Others wont.

still others have no clue what Im talking about.
I think Im in that last group. :p

scaeagles

10-31-2005, 03:54 PM

I actually have always felt a more appropriate saying regarding this is regarding pointing out the splinter in another's eye while ignoring the log in your own.

I have always felt that when talking about "judging", at least in a biblical sense, is in reference to final judgement on salvation or eternal damnation. I think judging is something everyone does in every situation - making an analysis based on the facts and personal upbringing and opinion and making a judgement about it.

If I think what someone else is doing is a problem, unless life or limb is at stake, who am I to tell the person what they are doing is wrong?

It also depends on the relationship. I coach HS basketball (and today s the happiest day of the year - the first practice of the season is today!) and frequently offer advice or value judgements to my players. It's not just coaching, it's mentoring young men.

Not Afraid

10-31-2005, 04:32 PM

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Most who do judge others with abandon are loathe to have the mirror held up to them as they're afraid of what they'll see. Its just sooo much easier to cast judgement on someone else than to look at ones self objectively and critique self first, others second. A great many people I think simply cant. Others wont.

Actually, for the most part, I usually am harshest on those how are going in the same bad route I traveled once. I've looked in the mirror, was horrified of what I saw and changed my ways. It hurts to see others I care about taking the same distructive path. And, sometimes, I simply don't want to be a witness to something I can't do anything about.

As for as other people judging me, once in a while they are spot-on and I thank them for pointing those things out. Other times, eh, they're just delusional. ;)

SacTown Chronic

10-31-2005, 05:18 PM

Alex nailed it with his comment about society judging people's private lives instead of their public lives. By all means judge me by my contribution, or lack thereof, to society. But stay the hell out of my bedroom (unless you've been invited).

My anger stemmed from Crystal's pain -- I'm simple, and overly protective, that way. She's hurt because a so-called friend decided to focus on the one detail that is none of her business while ignoring all the wonderful things that make Crystal, well, Crystal. And the friend telling Crystal that our children will no longer be socializing with her children because of Crystal's sexual orientation was the cherry on a very bitter sundae.

But, my swanky friends, venting here was just what the doctor ordered, Praise Allah. My anger has been replaced with sadness. And the sadness is starting to fade. As Kevin said, mayhap this person is not the kind of friend Crystal needs.

scaeagles

10-31-2005, 05:24 PM

But, my swanky friends, venting here was just what the doctor ordered, Praise Allah.

Sac, I've been meaning to tell you that Islam is not the way...... :) ;) :evil:

SacTown Chronic

10-31-2005, 05:28 PM

Mohammed The Prophet told me you'd say that, scaeagles.

Motorboat Cruiser

10-31-2005, 05:42 PM

It's not just coaching, it's mentoring young men.

Nope, not going to touch it.

Name

10-31-2005, 05:46 PM

Nope, not going to touch it.
oh, you know you want to....

scaeagles

10-31-2005, 06:10 PM

Nope, not going to touch it.

That's a good philosophy when you're coaching.

LSPoorEeyorick

10-31-2005, 06:50 PM

Oh, you guys. I am so sorry to hear that you were attacked this weekend. I can't comprehend this person's behavior.

The first time a friend of mine came out of the closet, it was via grapevine as well. Except that, after hearing it, I went straight up to my friend and said "no matter what happens, I will always love you." I hadn't had time to process the concept of homosexuality ('out' gays weren't prevalent in our community and my parents hadn't discussed them much with me.) But I didn't give a flying f u c k. I didn't care who he loved, I loved him because he was a good person and a supportive, generous, kind friend. And once I had time to think about homosexuality, all of the judgements heaped upon it seemed so horribly ridiculous. People's various biological sexual tendencies make me joyful-- gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual-- How wonderful. We feel. We live. We're allowed to love who we love.

There is nothing wrong with you, Crystal, and I know you know that. You're a wonderful person; what's not to love? And there is nothing wrong with your relationship with Jason-- in fact, from all that I have observed, it's a really beautiful and strong one.

Your friend is the one in the wrong. What kind of friend lets something like that--even if it's something they don't necessarily agree with-- stand in the way of a long relationship with a human being they've grown to know and appreciate enough to call 'friend'? It's impossible for us to erase the negativity this person has projectile vomited upon you. But let us at least remind you that we see who you are, we know who you are, we like who you are.

And we say: hot bisexual! Who doesn't love a hot bisexual? Something is terribly wrong with those rotten 'friends' on so many levels.

Crystal

10-31-2005, 07:18 PM

Does Mickey Lumbo know about this?

yeah, he knows, he's just in denial :D

Crystal

10-31-2005, 07:26 PM

Thanks to all of you for your kind words, support and encouragement. I feel alot better after having shared my dilemma and you guys have really lifted my spirits. :)

Sure, it sucks to lose a friendship, but I prefer to not have narrow-minded, self-righteous friends anyway. I think I prefer to hang out here at the LoT, where everyone is accepting of each other, regardless of differences in opinion, lifestyle or what have you. You guys rock!

Thanks again for all of your support!

Alex

10-31-2005, 08:34 PM

See, you've both judged and you've both decided that the other has features that are undesirable for you. It all works out, it's just too bad someone had to be rude first.

Ghoulish Delight

10-31-2005, 09:03 PM

I judge Crystal's bisexuality to be a-ok. :D

Cadaverous Pallor

10-31-2005, 10:04 PM

I'm sure as hell going to judge them.

Dealing with similar black and white views on the world from within my family, as well as other moments with friends whom I thought were open-minded, I'm feeling a lot of sympathy for you guys here. It can be quite shocking to have someone say such awful things to your face.

And they said your kids can't play with their kids anymore? Yeech. I wonder if these people will ever realize how wrong they were. As it is, I'm sure there's no going back after such things are brought to the surface...again, I know just how you feel.

Whatever you guys do to keep your marriage strong is the right answer....duh. :)

LSPE is right - it's downright unAmerican to mock a hot bisexual chick! Hell, Crystal is a hot bisexual chick that apparently prefers men at least slightly (you are married to a man, after all), takes care of kids and cleans house (ok, I'm assuming here). You're like, the ultimate dream woman!

Sooooo, are you guys visiting SoCal anytime soon without the kids?

:evil:

Alex

10-31-2005, 10:11 PM

Never mind

Kevy Baby

11-01-2005, 07:59 AM

Thanks again for all of your support!Just think of us as a great big community bra.

Gemini Cricket

11-01-2005, 08:26 AM

What happened over the weekend has really left me depressed...
Crystal,
I...grrrr...they... arrgghhh... how can they....roooaaarrr.... when I think about.... grrrrowwwwl... 'save? SAVE?!' .... murmur.... He taught inclusiveness... grrrrr.... plank in your own face... arrrrrr.... pretentiously pious jackanapes.... grooooaaannn!
Signed,
GC

tracilicious

11-01-2005, 09:17 AM

Hmmm...What I don't quite get is the kids thing. I can understand someone disagreeing with people bringing other people into their marriage. I'm not saying they should say something about it or that I personally care what others do, but I can see why some might not agree. But do they think you're going to be performing bisexual acts in front of their kids?

I probably wouldn't let my kids hang out with kids whose parents did certain things I don't approve of. I'm not sure what those things are yet, I probably wouldn't let them go to a house where there is smoking or drinking around them or drug use, etc. But common sense should dictate that your sex life isn't going to affect their children.

This must suck to explain to your kids. I'm sorry.

SacTown Chronic

11-01-2005, 09:59 AM

But do they think you're going to be performing bisexual acts in front of their kids?

I think they do. :rolleyes:

What happened over the weekend has really left me depressed.

Already I'm seeing a change in your demeanor. Sorrow has been replaced by your resolve and sense of self that has always turned me on. You're getting back that "this is me and if you don't like it go f yourself" attitude that I admire so much. You're wonderful just the way you are and I wouldn't change a thing about you, Crystal. :snap:

I love you.

scaeagles

11-01-2005, 10:09 AM

You're wonderful just the way you are and I wouldn't change a thing about you, Crystal. :snap:

I love you.

Would you two get a room already?

(feel free to invite anyone else you may wish :evil: )

Alex

11-01-2005, 10:18 AM

Crystal

11-01-2005, 10:26 AM

You're wonderful just the way you are and I wouldn't change a thing about you, Crystal. :snap:

I love you.

Hmmm...I wonder if you said this cuz you think you'll get one "thrown your way" tonight?

of course, you'd be right :evil:

This is gonna be a looong day :D

Crystal

11-01-2005, 10:40 AM

If someone engages in behavior that I think sufficient cause for me to sever ties, I'm not going to allow my (mythical) children to socialize with them either. So that part makes sense to me, I just disagree with the judgment.

That said, if there is a grapevine version of events going around (which if I recall is how they learned about it), you have to wonder what details are going along with it.

I'm not really concerned about the details of what is going along with it through the grapevine. Quite frankly, other people's opinions do not matter to me and if they want to gossip, then they are free to do so. I'm comfortable with who I am and am very secure with myself and my marriage. The only reason any of this has bothered me is because I have been friends with these people for 8 years and it is painful to lose a friendship, and even more painful for me to know that my children will be losing friendships as well.

In regards to not allowing my children to socialize with another's children, I would only allow that if I felt my children were in danger due to the other parent's behavior. My sexuality has absolutely no effect on the children, it's not as if I share any of this info with the kids, or ever behave in a sexual manner around the children. It is just absurd that these people would assume that I would now, knowing that in 8 years I never have. But, hey, their choice and I won't discuss it with them any further,I'm movin' on.

alphabassettgrrl

11-01-2005, 11:34 AM

It's terrible to lose a friend like that. Well, maybe you don't need them if they're going to see you as bad people.

As noted, your sexuality does not affect your children. Good parents are good parents. End of story. Actually, it's good to model a stable mature marriage to children.

You two do seem to have a good marriage. Congratulations! There are hordes of people who would love to have a spouse who is that devoted and in love and respecting of them.

It's true that open marriages don't work for everybody but it does work for some of us..... I'm guessing that woman's discomfort comes from within. Either she wishes she had the nerve to admit an attraction for someone other than her husband or she's nervous about the state of her marriage. I think it was KB who brought up the idea of projection. We see in others (and are annoyed by) what we most fear to see in ourselves.

Actually, you haven't said if your marriage is open or exclusive to the two of you. Just because one is bisexual doesn't mean anything other than an attraction. What action is taken varies greatly.

Hang in there- we love both of you! :)

Mousey Girl

11-01-2005, 03:57 PM

Coming from the "Mommy" angle, even if she hadn't said that your kids weren't welcome to play wither hers anymore I think I would have made sure that they didn't get together. I would be concerned that she would start mouthing off to your kids, who know what she would have filled their heads with. It is one thing to pass judgement on an adult, but when you start attacking the parent behind their back and in front of their kids, that is going too far.

innerSpaceman

11-01-2005, 04:01 PM

I usually am harshest on those how are going in the same bad route I traveled once.
Yep, woe be those who have the misfortune to simply err on the same side that I once erred, and I will judge them with more harshness than I will other errs that be not mine.

This is one prime example of why judgmentalism is BAD. How often are we really judging ourselves and not the purported external objects of our judgment? I don't happen to agree with what Alex says about the necessity of judgment. Perhaps he means simply the necessity of analysis and determination. There's a fine line between such opinion-forming/decision-making and judgmentalism.

I'm not particularly good at staying on the better side of that line, but I wish I were (and so, haha, I will judge you to be pure evil if you happen to also err on the judgy side of the line!).

Alex

11-01-2005, 04:50 PM

I have no idea what you mean by "opinion-forming/decision-making" at least not if it is somehow distinct from judgment.

I am of the opinion that children should not be allowed to play at the home of a crack addict, even if there is no sign that the crack addict has never put children at risk.

But really, that is just a judgment of a behavior. So, how is opinion-forming distinct from judgment?

innerSpaceman

11-01-2005, 05:54 PM

I guess one way of making the distinction is a) deciding that a crack habit is not for you (or your kids) vs. b) deciding that a crack habit is bad/evil/objectively wrong.

Another way of making the distinction would be a) deciding that having a crack habit is a poor choice vs. b) deciding that the crackhead is a bad or evil person.

In all cases, an analysis and determination is made. But the judgmental attitudes of holier-than-thou or I-know-all-about-you-via-this-one-thing or my-way-is-the-right-way-for-all-on-this-earth ... those attitudes are not necessary parts of the process, and are what, imo, separate opinions from judgments.

Not Afraid

11-01-2005, 06:18 PM

This is one prime example of why judgmentalism is BAD. How often are we really judging ourselves and not the purported external objects of our judgment?

Well, I think we are judging others in that situation. I may have done something stupid in the past. I now know it is stupid. I can define it as stupid. If someone is doing the same thing, they are stupid because they are doing the same act that I now think is stupid based on experience.

I guess it is one of the benefits of age. You can see others doing stupid things and say - damn, I've done that and boy was I stupid. It usually makes me glad I'm older and wiser.

Cadaverous Pallor

11-01-2005, 06:30 PM

Well, I think we are judging others in that situation. I may have done something stupid in the past. I now know it is stupid. I can define it as stupid. If someone is doing the same thing, they are stupid because they are doing the same act that I now think is stupid based on experience.

I guess it is one of the benefits of age. You can see others doing stupid things and say - damn, I've done that and boy was I stupid. It usually makes me glad I'm older and wiser.I know that saying now that I won't judge others as "stupid" for doing something that comes naturally to a person of a certain age is just as naive as when I promised myself I'd never forget what it was like to be 6 years old. But still, I wouldn't call the judgemental condescending attitude that creeps up on us a "benefit of age".

I'm going to try to allow people to have their own growing pains and not judge a 20 year old by a 40 year old's standards. I don't tell my teenage brothers that they're stupid because they don't have the judgement that I have. It's absurd. It's one thing to try teach others the lessons you've learned, but it's another to call them stupid because they haven't gotten there yet.

Not Afraid

11-01-2005, 06:40 PM

Why? I was stupid then, why shouldn't I call others stupid when they do the same thing? It didn't suddenly become a smart idea in the last 10 years.

€uroMeinke

11-01-2005, 06:43 PM

I think we need to define judgement. Myself, I judge people all the time, "what an idiot" I might exclaim as someone cuts me off. But I rarely call people "bad" or "evil" - then again as a moral relativist, I really don't believe in those things.

Going back to the OP - I think you just have to aknowledge the fact that in this big world there will be people who don't like you for a variety of reasons, sometimes with grounds, often time without. In the end, I believe we hang with the people we want to be with and who want to be with you. Sometimes it's sad to see an old relationship sour, but it happens all the time and it's usually best to look forward than back

wendybeth

11-01-2005, 06:46 PM

If some young kid goes out, gets drunk off his ass, and then plows into my car- I'm gonna call him stupid. (If I survive). In fact, any time someone younger does something that impacts me negetively, you bet I'll call it like I see it. People called me on it when I was young and stupid, and I intend to carry on the tradition. However, the only time I venture an opinion is when mine is requested, or they've done something that affected me or mine on a personal level. The rest of the time, I am good with just sitting back and watching them make an ass out of themselves.:D

Not Afraid

11-01-2005, 06:48 PM

The rest of the time, I am good with just sitting back and watching them make an ass out of themselves.:D

Yes, you can't discount the entertainment value of others' stupidities. If nothing else, it makes me grateful.

innerSpaceman

11-01-2005, 06:52 PM

As most people with children can tell you, human offspring seem to require learning everything for themselves ... with far too little observing what to do from parents. There are times when we'd rather have bear cubs than human kids. Animal babies seem to learn from their mamas; human kidlets seem to learn only from personal experience. It can be maddening.

But it's why we, imo, should not harshly judge 6-year-olds for being stupid, or 17-year-olds for being lame, or 26-year-olds (ahem) for not making the wise decisions that are clear to me at 45 (but were just as obscured when I myself was 26 ... or 17 or 6).

* * * * *

And it's so interesting how we can all judge Crystal's ex-friend for the crime of having judged Crystal.

Don't get me wrong; I think the ex-friend is a lametard asshat. But how far off is that judgment from the one that judged Crystal in the first place? It's a vicious cycle.

€uroMeinke

11-01-2005, 06:54 PM

I give mojo all the time - I consider that a judgement

wendybeth

11-01-2005, 06:58 PM

Don't get me wrong; I think the ex-friend is a lametard asshat. But how far off is that judgment from the one that judged Crystal in the first place? It's a vicious cycle.

However, she could be useful in certain areas of the Kingdom of Loathing....:D

Not Afraid

11-01-2005, 07:00 PM

And it's so interesting how we can all judge Crystal's ex-friend for the crime of having judged Crystal.

Don't get me wrong; I think the ex-friend is a lametard asshat. But how far off is that judgment from the one that judged Crystal in the first place? It's a vicious cycle.

Yup. We all do it. Our reasons may be different, but everyone does it.

I mean, name 5 things you get judged about frequently?

I'll go first:

Keeping my own last name
Dying my hair beautiful colors (beautiful is my own judgement)
Going to Disney "Too Much"
Not having a "real" job anymore
Being loud, "popular" and valued among my friends. <that's the worst one. I get hate mail over that one even!

LSPoorEeyorick

11-01-2005, 07:18 PM

1) My weight. Somebody overweight surely must be lazy, and eat terribly, and sit on the couch all day.

2) My spirituality. Oh, she was raised Catholic, it must mean she thinks all of the rest of us are going to hell. Or from the other direction... oh, she's not a practicing Catholic. She must be going to hell with the rest of them.

3) My job. Oh, she's low down the totem pole in insurance. She must rob from babies. Or, she must not know enough to be listened to. And she definitely must not have two bachelor's degrees.

4) My creative outlets. Oh, she's into theater, she must be flighty and airheaded. Oh, she's into film, she must want to be a star.

5) My weight. I said it already. It bears repeating.

€uroMeinke

11-01-2005, 07:36 PM

1) My Quietness in person - Must be bored, snobish, anti-social
2) My Job - How can anyone do something so boring?
3) My belief system (or lack thereof) - I'm going to hell, or am just a plain evil or at least ignorant person
4) My spending habits - irresponsible, frivilous
5) Disney - how often do yougo? Just what exactly do you do there?

Of course, some of the above judgements might be true ;)

wendybeth

11-01-2005, 07:43 PM

1). My occupation and haircolor- blonde hairdresser- stupid, much?

2). Only having one child. (Poor kid will grow up all alone, never mind that she has a zillion cousins).

3). I don't drive a mini-van or SUV. (In my neighborhood, you're a real rebel if you don't).

4). My politics, of late. Lots of nasty suppositions made about libs these days.

5). Homeschooling my kid.

SacTown Chronic

11-01-2005, 07:51 PM

1) Apparently some people are bothered that my wife is some sort of bisexual slut. But are they judging me or my wife; her bisexuality or the fact that she's married and actively bisexual?

And how many of you have read this thread and are now judging us by what you've learned?

2) I like to smoke weed.

3) Our family goes to Disneyland every year. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone has told me how weird they think that is or how lame Disneyland is for grown-ups.

4) I like to watch golf on tv.

5) Most of my extended family considers my political leanings to be "fvcked up".

wendybeth

11-01-2005, 08:03 PM

I hereby judge you to be a very cool guy, Sac. Of course, I always did.:snap:

SacTown Chronic

11-01-2005, 08:18 PM

6) I love to watch women's golf. :blush: My brothers are very concerned about this hobby of mine and they aren't shy about letting me know it.

Still think I'm cool, wb?

wendybeth

11-01-2005, 08:38 PM

Even cooler. I had thought you were referring to men's golf prior.

Name

11-01-2005, 08:43 PM

Who doesn't like watching women's golf..... those tight shirts, short skirts, long legs, fine strokes...... oh, who am I kidding, I'm not watching it for the sake of the golf, just the girls...

tracilicious

11-01-2005, 08:43 PM

1) Apparently some people are bothered that my wife is some sort of bisexual slut. But are they judging me or my wife; her bisexuality or the fact that she's married and actively bisexual?

And how many of you have read this thread and are now judging us by what you've learned?

Sac, come on. I'm sure we're all more surprised by the women's golf thing then the fact that you're married to an active bisexual. :p Do whatever you want in the bedroom, I hereby judge golf to be boring!

€uroMeinke

11-01-2005, 08:43 PM

6) Remarrying my ex - lost at least one friend over that one, sure there were plenty silent eye rolls to go around as well.

mistyisjafo

11-01-2005, 09:11 PM

Sac & Crystal,

I totally can understand where you are coming from! For 6 or so years I lived in "sin" with my boyfriend (now ex). I can not tell you how many times I had family, "friends" or even coworkers tell me how wrong I was and how my relationship was wrong or that living in sin was wrong. The crazy thing is that many people that I knew that told me that were - Divorced, Cheating, Not Married, Never Been In a Long Term Relationship, and Married & Divorced 3 or more times. So let me just say that SCREW what other people think. If they feel they are so much better than you than maybe they aren't your friends.

What I just can't believe is why they have to hurt the kids. If your kids are having fun and enjoy each others company, I don't see how your sex life would effect the kids! That's just childish and immature. It just saddens me.

Gemini Cricket

11-01-2005, 09:17 PM

1. Buying too many DVDs.
2. Being on MC and LoT too much.
3. Playing video games too much.
4. Worrying too much.
5. Going to Disneyland too much.

"I eat too much
I drink too much
I want too much
Too much!"
~ DMB

:)

Not Afraid

11-01-2005, 09:51 PM

6) Remarrying my ex - lost at least one friend over that one, sure there were plenty silent eye rolls to go around as well.

OMG! That's right! I had forgotten about the losing friends part of that episode of our lives. Oh well, we're happy. ;)

MickeyLumbo

11-01-2005, 10:13 PM

The wife became aware of my bi-sexuality

i wish i was lesbian

MickeyLumbo

11-01-2005, 10:14 PM

But stay the hell out of my bedroom (unless you've been invited).

RSVP is in the mail.

Kevy Baby

11-01-2005, 10:18 PM

Took you long enough to show up!

MickeyLumbo

11-01-2005, 10:26 PM

my stalker my girlfriend's husband told me this evening i hadn't been to LoT for awhile...so i stumbled upon this thread. glad to see they didn't out me!

Kevy Baby

11-01-2005, 10:28 PM

my stalker my girlfriend's husbandWell THERE'S a story I am looking forward to...

Where's Barbie?

11-01-2005, 10:28 PM

1) My Quietness in person - Must be bored, snobish, anti-social
Of course, some of the above judgements might be true ;)

You say it :rolleyes: your very quiet in groups but how can you get a word in with big mouth NF or me around. We don't even take a breath when we talk :)

MickeyLumbo

11-01-2005, 10:35 PM

Well THERE'S a story I am looking forward to...

it all started with a brass stripper's pole and a man-thong...:evil:

Not Afraid

11-01-2005, 10:39 PM

You say it :rolleyes: your very quiet in groups but how can you get a word in with big mouth NF or me around. We don't even take a breath when we talk :)

Yes, but if we DID breathe, he wouldn't shut up!

lizziebith

11-01-2005, 10:44 PM

OMG! That's right! I had forgotten about the losing friends part of that episode of our lives. Oh well, we're happy. ;)

Wow! Lost friends? Sheesh. People should just learn to surf life's waves.

Of course, I think I might have lost a couple of friends after leaving "what looked a whole lot like a perfect marriage" once. Apparently, I'm just an ingrate...

Oh well, at least I'm friends with a few exes...Hi Boss R!

Alex

11-01-2005, 11:27 PM

And it's so interesting how we can all judge Crystal's ex-friend for the crime of having judged Crystal.

I've tried very hard not to judge the former friends. I don't have nearly enough information about the situation to do that. There may very well be information we don't have that would lead me to agree with this person.

I have no opinion on whether her judgment of Crystal is right or wrong (though if it is based purely on bisexuality, then I probably disagree with it but it is a judgment people have the right to make.

Based on the information provided, I would judge the friend's behavior to be rude, needlessly hurtful, and not the right (as I define it) way to handle such things. If she decided that something about Crystal was a problem then she should simply have moved on.

But again, for all I know, with the same information as the friend has, I may very well have come to the same judgment, though I would have behaved differently.

innerSpaceman

11-02-2005, 08:46 AM

Ya know, I can't think of five things that people judge me about.

Oh, I can conceive of 5 items people might judge me about .... but since I have no evidence of any judgment going on, I'm not going to assume the nature of it.

I think that's mighty nice that the people in my life have at least the courtesy to keep any judgments of me to themselves. I would hope this does not extend to good friends foregoing constructive criticism, but it's generally pleasant that I do not feel subjected to judgment by anyone I know. How cool is that?

And it merely strengthens my feelings about judgmentalism itself. The absence of it feels good.

(And I know it would feel even better if I could stop doing it myself - - I consciously work on it ... with varying degrees of success. It does not require that I become unopinionated. Those who know me [whether they judge me or not] know that's never going to happen.)

MickeyLumbo

11-02-2005, 08:50 AM

How cool is that?

you so rock, ISM.:snap:

Crystal

11-02-2005, 09:03 AM

For the record, I have not once said I do not judge other people. I think, to some extent, it is human nature to judge others. Now, I may judge others, BUT, unless their behavior is something that affects me directly, I keep my mouth shut and mind my own damn business. I may quietly lose a little bit of respect for the person I have judged, depending on what it is I am judging them for, I may even choose to no longer associate with them, but I would never personally attack another person.
Alex, my "friend" has judged me based solely on the fact that I am bisexual. She is entitled to her feelings. The problem I have is that, as a friend, she should have come to me and talked to me about how she felt, given me reason for her feelings and, if she decided that it is so against her beliefs, she could have, maturely, severed ties and ended the friendship. I would have respected that. However, she chose to call me on the phone and verbally attack me, being very offensive and for that I lost all respect for her.
It's over now, I will still grieve over the loss of the friendship, but I won't dwell on it. I have better things to do with my time.

Alex

11-02-2005, 09:03 AM

There you go. MickeyLumbo just judged you. Or is judging only bad when it is negative judgement?

Alex

11-02-2005, 09:07 AM

Crystal,

As I said, regardless of the validity of her judgment she was rude in the way she acted on it.

innerSpaceman

11-02-2005, 11:57 AM

Yes, Alex, judgment is only bad when it's a negative judgment. What I personally am talking about in this thread is judgmentalism ... which, by definition, is negative.

Alex

11-02-2005, 12:47 PM

By definition, judgmentalism is not a real word*. I disagree with your definition and to me inappropriate positive judgmentalism is just about as bad as inappropriate negative judgmentalism.

It would be just as inappropriate for me to tell Crystal that I think she is doing a good job raising her kids because she is bisexual as it would be for me to tell her I think she is doing a bad job raising her kids because she is bisexual. Because one will upset her more than the other doesn't make it any more or less appropriate. Either way it is not something I should be passing judgement on and if I do, it is something I should keep to myself.

In my view anyway.

[* Yes, I know judgmental is a word, and therefore the definition of judgmentalism would be obvious, but it also has no definitional limit to only negative judgments.]

Prudence

11-03-2005, 10:59 AM

You know, I was trying to think of my list of 5 ways in which people judge me and I couldn't make a list. With one exception (even I can figure out what it means when frat boys "moo" at me from a passing car) I really have no idea what people think of me. I'm pretty damn good at helping other people with their interpersonal skills and situations, but I have no idea how I fit into the universe. Thus, when I find myself in a situation similar to Crystal's -- where someone attacks some facet of my personality as subhuman and malignant -- it feels like it has come from nowhere, with no warning, and the blow is that much harder. If I'd *known* that they felt that way, or that I was perceived that way, I would have some sort of mental armor in place to blunt the attack. Thus, a lot of the stuff on my "judging" list (not taking my husband's name, going to school instead of popping out babies) doesn't even really register for me. I'm prepared for society to think I'm acting inappropriately. Just my random thought of the morning.

alphabassettgrrl

11-03-2005, 04:10 PM

I'm prepared for society to think I'm acting inappropriately.
Beautiful. Exactly. I am the same way.

tracilicious

11-03-2005, 05:07 PM

QThus, a lot of the stuff on my "judging" list (not taking my husband's name, going to school instead of popping out babies) doesn't even really register for me.

There are also quite a few people who will judge you for doing the opposite. Having babies, choosing to stay home and raise them instead of pursuing a career (right now), etc. Your phrases "wifey-poo" and "popping out babies" are demonstrative of just that. The instant most people find out I'm a stay at home mom they treat me like I have the IQ of a fourth grader. Or else I get borderline insults. Doesn't bother me. I'm secure with my choices.

blueerica

11-03-2005, 06:59 PM

Wow, if I could only list a list of things I perceive people to judge me on. I think the harshest kind of judgement is self-judgement, and that's something I do all the time. Often I am harshest on myself, and perceive that others will see me the same way. It's often a surprise, and on a few occasions, I have been nearly ungracious when receiving a compliment on something I deemed myself to be failing at. My list would be a mile long, but I can't think of anything someone might judge me about on a regular basis.

I know I judge others, but I like to think I do so with a grain of salt, and a view in the mirror of my own faults. By comparison, we're really all on a level playing field, I think. Except for those extra judgemental a-holes... ;)

jdramj

11-04-2005, 10:51 PM

Q

There are also quite a few people who will judge you for doing the opposite. Having babies, choosing to stay home and raise them instead of pursuing a career (right now), etc. Your phrases "wifey-poo" and "popping out babies" are demonstrative of just that. The instant most people find out I'm a stay at home mom they treat me like I have the IQ of a fourth grader. Or else I get borderline insults. Doesn't bother me. I'm secure with my choices.

I have to admitt that I am not that comfortable in my "stay at home mommy" skin. I put on a good show...you know, fake it till you make it. I gave up over 10 years in management and decided to work part time for the same company, to keep a little income flowing. (All this to stay home with 3 kids and then find out later the same week as I stepped down that I was pregnant with a 4th kid....surprise...surprise!) Well when new co-workers find out that I used to be 2nd in charge of the store, I am often asked what happened, as though I did something wrong. The reality was my kids needed me more than my company needed me. I am not over this yet, it was a hard thing to do, and it would fall on my list of judgements on me.

I have the same problem with people assuming I am stupid, especially being older than my co-workers and in customer service. Man, customers can be so snobish. This I do have a handle on this, espcially when I probably make more money that half of them anyways. I make more money per hour than almost 3 of my co-workers hourly wages combined, gotta love 15 years with the company. :evil:

BarTopDancer

11-04-2005, 11:36 PM

Oh man Crystal! I am so sorry! With friends like that who needs enemies.

I think no matter how much we claim we don't judge we do. We do it in our everyday lives "man that driver is an idiot", we do it on the boards (mojo/rep systems). Judging isn't necessarily bad for it is human nature. How we act towards those we judge is what we should be aware of, not of the act of judging itself.