Concern for France and Europe

[scaeagles]

I have done a lot of reading lately as to the riots in France and the cause of these riots, as well as unrest in other places throughout Europe.

In France it seems directly related to a sort of racism, or "superiorism". The French don't seem to be offended by where someone is from, but there does seem to be certain economic consequences for those Muslim youth that have not wanted to assimilate fully into French culture. Scarce jobs are going elsewhere, leaving the young Muslims in slums on the outskirts of Paris.

However, I believe it goes deeper than this.

There is unrest throughout Europe, and most of it seems to be coming from Muslims that do not wish to assimilate into a society, but rather change it to fit their vision of what the society should be. It isn't that Europe will not tolerate an Islamic presence - to the contrary, in fact. However, this growing Islamic presence does not play nicely with the cultures around it. Being "tolerant" of a group that has no desire to be "tolerant" of others will not work.

France may not get better. It may deteriorate into a situation that Israel deals with daily - suicide bombings and demands of concessions from the French government.

France had better get ready to play hardball and quash this immediately. If they show weakness, it will only escalate farther.

A great article:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

[Not Afraid]

Thank you for bringing this up and sharing more information. I know not enough to make any kind of decision, I just know that these events leave me feeling uneasy. Your analysis of the situation seems very plausible and, as do most culture wars, it fascinated me to no end - fascinates and worries me.

I'm going to read the article you linked to above. Please share any other information you might run across. I think this situation could grow into one that has very broad ramifications for everyone.

[Prudence]

There seems to be something about large groups that emboldens people to act in spectacularly uncivilized ways. Engaging in some wild speculation -- what is it about modern society that people just can't wait to blow things up? Set things on fire? Overturn cars? Loot businesses? Whether it's championship sporting events or religious extremism, it all looks to me like barbarians gleefully bent on destruction for destruction's sake. There's some label under which they assemble, perhaps a rallying cry, but the essence of the acts are people throwing off the mantle of civilization.

So why is that? Is it like toddlers and bed time? If you don't put them to the daily hard labor of the pre-industrial age they don't get all tuckered out at bed time? I speculate that somehow we, as a world, have raised a generation or two who don't feel they have a share in society and therefore don't feel guilt or regret at acts destructive to society.

[wendybeth]

I think you are right, Scaeagles, but I'm afraid it also goes a bit deeper than that. Disenfranchised groups will always seek each other out, and the results are often unpleasant for the ruling class. (Third Estate, anyone?) This is going to get worse, and it will spread. I would not be surprised to see it spread very far indeed.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Eh. This sounds a whole lot like the Rodney King riots. Disenfranchised minority population lashing out by destroying their own neighborhoods. Ugly, important to pay attention to, but it's not going to bring down the world in the long run.

[€uroMeinke]

It is an interesting situation, especially when you look at the recent bombings in the UK, which was done apparently by british born Muslims. It's as if their extremism is born from a desire to assert their own cultural identity and refusal to assimilate. I wonder if it's also a backlash againt their parents who came to the West for a better life, Where their parents have their past hardships to compare their current situation, their children just see their parents hardship among the apparent ease of living among the Europeans, a perfect recipe for resentment.

I don't know how valid my speculation is but it seems a likely outcome for an imigrant population.

[CoasterMatt]

How long before France surrenders? :p

[Boss Radio]

France burns?

Or...

Freedom fries.

[€uroMeinke]

I keep thinking about this one -

Having traveled in Europe, I know there is a different sense of cultural identity there than here. People have a different sense about what it is to be "French," or "Swiss," or ""English" than we have in being "American." Whether you think of us as a melting pot or a tossed salad, when you are an American, you always have a cultural identitiy that has some element of being other, be that German, Mexican, African, or even Native American. We are a hyphenated nation - and that perhaps is one of our strengths in assimilating or integrating other cultures into our nation.

Europe is different. When you are in France and not French, you are an outsider despite whatever liberal political systems are in place. I suspect Muslims in Europe never fully feel European. Perhaps this will change as the EU continues and possibly even grows to include a Muslim state such as Turkey. But I think it will take a long time to effect the current sense of cultural identity among the European nations.

[scaeagles]

I agree, Euro (sorry, I don't know how to make that special character).

Looking at your analysis, though, this means a long and growing struggle that will get more and more violent as Muslim populations grow and do not want to become "French" or "Swiss" or "English".

I think what has taken place (and appears to be subsiding a bit, but is not over) is just the start of what we can expect to see more and more of throughout Europe.

[Morrigoon]

I heard some folks in the office discussing this yesterday, and one of the ladies has friends that live in France. She was saying that they encourage these people to come from French-speaking/occupied Muslim countries, they give them "dual citizenship", but that the French don't really consider them real French citizens because they aren't white. So they come to France, find no jobs and a population that refuses to recognize their perfectly valid French citizenship. In addition they're living practically on top of eachother in those slums (drawing my silent mental comparison to our immigration probem), and the whole thing is just a recipe for disaster. I'm sure it doesn't help that France has recently engaged in some Muslim-unfriendly legislation lately. Remember that whole thing about disallowing any outward displays of religion in school? The catholics had to give up their crosses on necklaces, but the muslim girls had to give up their headscarves! Not exactly an equal trade, is it? One side gives up jewelry, the other side is forced to dress in a mode they consider immodest. Imagine if the government forced all our little girls to go to school with their navels exposed...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Imagine if the government forced all our little girls to go to school with their navels exposed...Is it really safe to say such things with Kevy reading these boards?

[scaeagles]

I have heard about a book by, of all people, Pat Buchanen. I am not a huge Buchanen fan, but he has an interesting point. Why were Muslims encouraged to come to France (as Morrigoon has pointed out) from poor areas in North Africa (in particular)? Because the French wanted cheap labor. Well, their economy has struggled, and so who are the first to lose their jobs? Those that were encouraged to come because of a desire for cheap labor.

He draws a parallel between that and our desire for cheap labor from Mexico. He then draws the conclusion that since many Mexican nationals believe that the American Southwest belongs to them anyway, we will soon be seeing such riots here.

Interesting conclusion, but one I disagree with. The rioting in France, I believe, is just as social as it is economic in origin. I do not see religious fanaticism and a separatist mentality, nor a desire to change the entire American culture, in the illegal immigration coming from Mexico.

[tracilicious]

Interesting conclusion, but one I disagree with. The rioting in France, I believe, is just as social as it is economic in origin. I do not see religious fanaticism and a separatist mentality, nor a desire to change the entire American culture, in the illegal immigration coming from Mexico.


I can see it, but not right now. Give it 50 years and if things stay the way they are now w/Mexican immigrants and I think we'll see some trouble.

[Prudence]

I can see it, but not right now. Give it 50 years and if things stay the way they are now w/Mexican immigrants and I think we'll see some trouble.

Are you sure it's not happening now? Granted, there isn't the same push to "destroy the infidel," but there are certainly areas that qualify as immigrant enclaves - where law enforcement enters warily and non-immigrants don't enter at all.

[blueerica]

I am smarter for taking the time to read this thread...

Definitely food for thought... Keep up the information, as psychology and social implications have become of greater and greater interest to me!!

TY!

[tracilicious]

Are you sure it's not happening now? Granted, there isn't the same push to "destroy the infidel," but there are certainly areas that qualify as immigrant enclaves - where law enforcement enters warily and non-immigrants don't enter at all.

Perhaps it is. I'm fairly sheltered, I suppose. Has anyone else seen A Day Without a Mexican? Very thought provoking.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Are you sure it's not happening now? Granted, there isn't the same push to "destroy the infidel," but there are certainly areas that qualify as immigrant enclaves - where law enforcement enters warily and non-immigrants don't enter at all.Yes, but there isn't a particularly perceptible difference between Hispanic (or even specifically Mexican) violent immigrant disenfranchisement vs. the violent expression of disenfranchisment seen in other non-Hisapanic/Mexican neighborhoods. Or, to put it another way, a dangerous ghetto is a dangerous ghetto, no matter the ethnic make-up here. Of course there's always some nuance, but their identity as foreigners, at least from my limited perspective, doesn't seem to be the defining cause of the situation you describe. It seems to be more triggered by the broader problems brought on by being economically depressed that are common to all people.

[Prudence]

Yes, but there isn't a particularly perceptible difference between Hispanic (or even specifically Mexican) violent immigrant disenfranchisement vs. the violent expression of disenfranchisment seen in other non-Hisapanic/Mexican neighborhoods. Or, to put it another way, a dangerous ghetto is a dangerous ghetto, no matter the ethnic make-up here. Of course there's always some nuance, but their identity as foreigners, at least from my limited perspective, doesn't seem to be the defining cause of the situation you describe. It seems to be more triggered by the broader problems brought on by being economically depressed that are common to all people.

I think that in some situations their identity as foreigners is a critical factor. Some groups have a language separation that other groups do not. This contributes to, and in some cases encourages, the creation of enclaves of particular ethnic groups. In reality, there are many people in this country, as well, who have no interest in assimilating. Or families where the children don't think it's cool to assimilate -- where assimilation is seen as turning one's back on one's "otherness" and a betrayal of family and heritage.

[€uroMeinke]

I think that in some situations their identity as foreigners is a critical factor. Some groups have a language separation that other groups do not. This contributes to, and in some cases encourages, the creation of enclaves of particular ethnic groups. In reality, there are many people in this country, as well, who have no interest in assimilating. Or families where the children don't think it's cool to assimilate -- where assimilation is seen as turning one's back on one's "otherness" and a betrayal of family and heritage.

Perhaps it's becasue i live in Southern Califiornia, but the multi-cultural nature of this place makes "assimilation" kind of transparent, as the "norm" has stretched quite a bit and encompasses quite a bit of diversity. Europe on the other hand seems generations away from reaching such a point as they must first think of themselves as Europeans - just like the Turks.

[scaeagles]

Some interesting quotes from a political emailing I receive -

" In Brussels, Muslim extremist Dyab Abou Jahjah, the leader of the Arab
European League, said this, "We reject integration when it leads to
assimilation. I don't believe in a host country. We are at home here and
whatever we consider our culture to be also belongs to our chosen country.
I'm in my country, not the country of the Westerners." "

Clearly, his goal is not to coexist with the west.

" Tony Blankley, author of The West's Last Chance: Will We Win the Clash of
Civlizations?, quotes a German Muslim leader who put it more bluntly:
"Germany is an Islamic country. Islam is in the home, in schools. Germans
will be outnumbered. We [Muslims] will say what we want. We'll live how
we want. It's outrageous that Germans demand we speak their language. Our
children will have our language, our laws, our culture." "

So, another Islamic leader rejects even peaceful coexistance.

The goal, clearly, is to overwhelm western culture with Islamic culture. This is just the beginning of an organized campaign.

[€uroMeinke]

The goal, clearly, is to overwhelm western culture with Islamic culture. This is just the beginning of an organized campaign.

That may well be the goal of the extremists, but I don't think they speak for most of the immigrant populations, who want jobs, prosperity, and western style hedonism. They attract the disenfranchised, who will continue to lash out in horrendous ways - much like Timothy McViegh, the Unibomber, and other lunatic terrorsits of the west.

I heard an intersting comment today about the bombings in Jordan. One person characterized the reason the terrorists were more successful this time in carrying out their plans, was that their support and infrastructure had shrank, making them more insular and harder to detect.

Oh, and calling back Morigoon's comment about the French rulling on headscarves - I found it interesting to discover that Turkey has banned women from wearing headscarves in the public universities as they feel it conflicts with their being a secular society.

There is much brewing in this pot, Radical Islam is capitalizing on people's malaise and discontent, but I'm not sure that westernized Muslims will be willing to give up the spoils of modern living anymore than their Christian brethern have.

[wendybeth]

I've no doubt at all that there is organisation behind this, much as there was behind the Russian, French and American Revolutions. There were also groups with nefarious designs behind much of the unrest during the Industrial revolution as well. The point is that they are able to exploit the disenfranchised far more readily than they can anyone who enjoys economic well being and/or elevated social class. The underclass, proletariat, Third Estate- whatever the hell you want to call them- have always existed. Around the turn of the century here in America, it was those damned Irish and Italians- they were gonna ruin the country with their labor movements, socialist and archarchist groups. In the sixties, it was the Black Panthers, hippies and the Weathermen. The simple fact remains that France is reaping what she has sown- treat people like **** long enough, give them no financial or emotional investment in their 'country' and no hope for the future, and you've got the perfect storm brewing.

And don't think for a second it can't happen here.