Concern for France and Europe

scaeagles · 11-08-2005, 04:54 PM

I have done a lot of reading lately as to the riots in France and the cause of these riots, as well as unrest in other places throughout Europe.

In France it seems directly related to a sort of racism, or "superiorism". The French don't seem to be offended by where someone is from, but there does seem to be certain economic consequences for those Muslim youth that have not wanted to assimilate fully into French culture. Scarce jobs are going elsewhere, leaving the young Muslims in slums on the outskirts of Paris.

However, I believe it goes deeper than this.

There is unrest throughout Europe, and most of it seems to be coming from Muslims that do not wish to assimilate into a society, but rather change it to fit their vision of what the society should be. It isn't that Europe will not tolerate an Islamic presence - to the contrary, in fact. However, this growing Islamic presence does not play nicely with the cultures around it. Being "tolerant" of a group that has no desire to be "tolerant" of others will not work.

France may not get better. It may deteriorate into a situation that Israel deals with daily - suicide bombings and demands of concessions from the French government.

France had better get ready to play hardball and quash this immediately. If they show weakness, it will only escalate farther.

A great article:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn...t-steyn06.html

Not Afraid · 11-08-2005, 05:07 PM

Thank you for bringing this up and sharing more information. I know not enough to make any kind of decision, I just know that these events leave me feeling uneasy. Your analysis of the situation seems very plausible and, as do most culture wars, it fascinated me to no end - fascinates and worries me.

I'm going to read the article you linked to above. Please share any other information you might run across. I think this situation could grow into one that has very broad ramifications for everyone.

Prudence · 11-08-2005, 06:07 PM

There seems to be something about large groups that emboldens people to act in spectacularly uncivilized ways. Engaging in some wild speculation -- what is it about modern society that people just can't wait to blow things up? Set things on fire? Overturn cars? Loot businesses? Whether it's championship sporting events or religious extremism, it all looks to me like barbarians gleefully bent on destruction for destruction's sake. There's some label under which they assemble, perhaps a rallying cry, but the essence of the acts are people throwing off the mantle of civilization.

So why is that? Is it like toddlers and bed time? If you don't put them to the daily hard labor of the pre-industrial age they don't get all tuckered out at bed time? I speculate that somehow we, as a world, have raised a generation or two who don't feel they have a share in society and therefore don't feel guilt or regret at acts destructive to society.

wendybeth · 11-08-2005, 06:44 PM

I think you are right, Scaeagles, but I'm afraid it also goes a bit deeper than that. Disenfranchised groups will always seek each other out, and the results are often unpleasant for the ruling class. (Third Estate, anyone?) This is going to get worse, and it will spread. I would not be surprised to see it spread very far indeed.

Ghoulish Delight · 11-08-2005, 07:07 PM

Eh. This sounds a whole lot like the Rodney King riots. Disenfranchised minority population lashing out by destroying their own neighborhoods. Ugly, important to pay attention to, but it's not going to bring down the world in the long run.

€uroMeinke · 11-08-2005, 07:33 PM

It is an interesting situation, especially when you look at the recent bombings in the UK, which was done apparently by british born Muslims. It's as if their extremism is born from a desire to assert their own cultural identity and refusal to assimilate. I wonder if it's also a backlash againt their parents who came to the West for a better life, Where their parents have their past hardships to compare their current situation, their children just see their parents hardship among the apparent ease of living among the Europeans, a perfect recipe for resentment.

I don't know how valid my speculation is but it seems a likely outcome for an imigrant population.

CoasterMatt · 11-08-2005, 09:36 PM

How long before France surrenders?

Boss Radio · 11-09-2005, 12:32 AM

France burns?

Or...

Freedom fries.

€uroMeinke · 11-09-2005, 07:58 AM

I keep thinking about this one -

Having traveled in Europe, I know there is a different sense of cultural identity there than here. People have a different sense about what it is to be "French," or "Swiss," or ""English" than we have in being "American." Whether you think of us as a melting pot or a tossed salad, when you are an American, you always have a cultural identitiy that has some element of being other, be that German, Mexican, African, or even Native American. We are a hyphenated nation - and that perhaps is one of our strengths in assimilating or integrating other cultures into our nation.

Europe is different. When you are in France and not French, you are an outsider despite whatever liberal political systems are in place. I suspect Muslims in Europe never fully feel European. Perhaps this will change as the EU continues and possibly even grows to include a Muslim state such as Turkey. But I think it will take a long time to effect the current sense of cultural identity among the European nations.

scaeagles · 11-09-2005, 08:41 AM

I agree, Euro (sorry, I don't know how to make that special character).

Looking at your analysis, though, this means a long and growing struggle that will get more and more violent as Muslim populations grow and do not want to become "French" or "Swiss" or "English".

I think what has taken place (and appears to be subsiding a bit, but is not over) is just the start of what we can expect to see more and more of throughout Europe.

11-08-2005, 04:54 PM	#1
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Concern for France and Europe I have done a lot of reading lately as to the riots in France and the cause of these riots, as well as unrest in other places throughout Europe. In France it seems directly related to a sort of racism, or "superiorism". The French don't seem to be offended by where someone is from, but there does seem to be certain economic consequences for those Muslim youth that have not wanted to assimilate fully into French culture. Scarce jobs are going elsewhere, leaving the young Muslims in slums on the outskirts of Paris. However, I believe it goes deeper than this. There is unrest throughout Europe, and most of it seems to be coming from Muslims that do not wish to assimilate into a society, but rather change it to fit their vision of what the society should be. It isn't that Europe will not tolerate an Islamic presence - to the contrary, in fact. However, this growing Islamic presence does not play nicely with the cultures around it. Being "tolerant" of a group that has no desire to be "tolerant" of others will not work. France may not get better. It may deteriorate into a situation that Israel deals with daily - suicide bombings and demands of concessions from the French government. France had better get ready to play hardball and quash this immediately. If they show weakness, it will only escalate farther. A great article: http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn...t-steyn06.html
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11-08-2005, 05:07 PM	#2
Not Afraid HI! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,108	Thank you for bringing this up and sharing more information. I know not enough to make any kind of decision, I just know that these events leave me feeling uneasy. Your analysis of the situation seems very plausible and, as do most culture wars, it fascinated me to no end - fascinates and worries me. I'm going to read the article you linked to above. Please share any other information you might run across. I think this situation could grow into one that has very broad ramifications for everyone.
	Submit to Quotes

11-08-2005, 06:07 PM	#3
Prudence Beelzeboobs, Esq. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gavel - I haz it Posts: 6,287	There seems to be something about large groups that emboldens people to act in spectacularly uncivilized ways. Engaging in some wild speculation -- what is it about modern society that people just can't wait to blow things up? Set things on fire? Overturn cars? Loot businesses? Whether it's championship sporting events or religious extremism, it all looks to me like barbarians gleefully bent on destruction for destruction's sake. There's some label under which they assemble, perhaps a rallying cry, but the essence of the acts are people throwing off the mantle of civilization. So why is that? Is it like toddlers and bed time? If you don't put them to the daily hard labor of the pre-industrial age they don't get all tuckered out at bed time? I speculate that somehow we, as a world, have raised a generation or two who don't feel they have a share in society and therefore don't feel guilt or regret at acts destructive to society. __________________ traguna macoities tracorum satis de
	Submit to Quotes

11-08-2005, 06:44 PM	#4
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	I think you are right, Scaeagles, but I'm afraid it also goes a bit deeper than that. Disenfranchised groups will always seek each other out, and the results are often unpleasant for the ruling class. (Third Estate, anyone?) This is going to get worse, and it will spread. I would not be surprised to see it spread very far indeed. __________________
	Submit to Quotes

11-08-2005, 07:07 PM	#5
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Eh. This sounds a whole lot like the Rodney King riots. Disenfranchised minority population lashing out by destroying their own neighborhoods. Ugly, important to pay attention to, but it's not going to bring down the world in the long run. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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11-08-2005, 07:33 PM	#6
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	It is an interesting situation, especially when you look at the recent bombings in the UK, which was done apparently by british born Muslims. It's as if their extremism is born from a desire to assert their own cultural identity and refusal to assimilate. I wonder if it's also a backlash againt their parents who came to the West for a better life, Where their parents have their past hardships to compare their current situation, their children just see their parents hardship among the apparent ease of living among the Europeans, a perfect recipe for resentment. I don't know how valid my speculation is but it seems a likely outcome for an imigrant population. __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
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11-08-2005, 09:36 PM	#7
CoasterMatt BRAAAAAAAINS! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: One Step Beyond... Posts: 8,802	How long before France surrenders? __________________ Do you like my photography? Visit photosbymatt.tumblr.com to purchase prints!
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11-09-2005, 12:32 AM	#8
Boss Radio The Littlest Hobo Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hobo Junction Posts: 393	France burns? Or... Freedom fries.
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11-09-2005, 07:58 AM	#9
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	I keep thinking about this one - Having traveled in Europe, I know there is a different sense of cultural identity there than here. People have a different sense about what it is to be "French," or "Swiss," or ""English" than we have in being "American." Whether you think of us as a melting pot or a tossed salad, when you are an American, you always have a cultural identitiy that has some element of being other, be that German, Mexican, African, or even Native American. We are a hyphenated nation - and that perhaps is one of our strengths in assimilating or integrating other cultures into our nation. Europe is different. When you are in France and not French, you are an outsider despite whatever liberal political systems are in place. I suspect Muslims in Europe never fully feel European. Perhaps this will change as the EU continues and possibly even grows to include a Muslim state such as Turkey. But I think it will take a long time to effect the current sense of cultural identity among the European nations. __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
	Submit to Quotes

11-09-2005, 08:41 AM	#10
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I agree, Euro (sorry, I don't know how to make that special character). Looking at your analysis, though, this means a long and growing struggle that will get more and more violent as Muslim populations grow and do not want to become "French" or "Swiss" or "English". I think what has taken place (and appears to be subsiding a bit, but is not over) is just the start of what we can expect to see more and more of throughout Europe.
	Submit to Quotes