Fate and Destiny: a philosophy thread

[Capt Jack]

I've thought about posting this for awhile now. Written and deleted it at least a half dozen times...but eh, I figure what have I got to lose. Right?

Right. :cool:

Ok, Ive been around you folks for a bit now and we've got more than our share of deep thinkers. Life experienced folks with alot to add to nearly any topic one can come up with. Before I get this started, just a quick side note or three.

Without getting into details, there have been events in my life of late that have me pondering alot of things from alot of perspectives. Alot of "how did I get here?" "what the 773H do I do now?" etc etc.

Some of it has brought me to pondering fate and destiny at length. Not so much from a cause and effect standpoint, but moreso to the extend of 'does fate and or destiny exist?'

So...with that out of the way your opinions and candid responses would be greatly appreciated. I'm not looking to start a debate on the existance of a divine diety, heaven and hell or right and wrong. Now I also dont want to pidgeon hole anyone into answering within any bounds, so if you think it relevant, please feel free. (Just please, respect each others beliefs whether or not you believe the same)

ok...here goes

Do you believe in fate? destiny?
Do you believe that some events in our lives are preordained to work out a certain way regardless of what we do or dont do? or is it more a matter of personal choices...rights and lefts and pure coincidence? a combination of all of the above?
Regardless of what you think.....why?

my deepest thanks to you all in advance.

Capt Jack :argghh:

[€uroMeinke]

I stand in the far end of the "Free Will" camp and side with the existentialists in this matter. That is, fate and destiny don't exist in a "preordained" sense, rather we choose our destiny, make decissions based on that "chosen" path, and take responsibility for what comes.

The more playful part of me, loves to take a look at past events and "create" a destiny as one interprets a painting, or posits theories from a set of facts. I don't necessarily believe in these "discovered" destinies - but sometimes they give insight to psychological motives as to choices made.

So my purpose is my own making, my destiny is how others interpret my life when I'm no longer here living it.

[Alex]

I don't believe there is free will. So in the sense that everthing reduces to basic chemical and physical reactions then fate and destiny exist.

That said, the chemical and physical reactions interact on such an immense scale, with built in elements of uncertainty that the ultimate result is completely unknowable.

Also, in the sense that "fate" and "destiny" suggest a plan or puprose, there is no such.

[innerSpaceman]

While I don't exactly believe in fate or destiny, I think our souls are drawn to certain life experiences and to certain other souls such that certain elements of our lives can be seen as preordained.

I think that each of us is creating the universe around us with our thoughts and words and actions, and that to the extent the world seems solid and unchanging - with the freeways, for example, right where we left them yesterday - it is so because of the shared force of all our consciousnesses on a sort of agreed-upon reality.

In this metaphysical view of the universe, much of what happens can be seen as both fate and completely free willed, all at once. It doesn't help to straighten out matters that I believe all of time to be happening at the same time. That events of a thousand years ago and a million years hence are all happening at once, and are all happening right now. Now being all there is - and time, just like everything else in the physical realm, being merely an illusion. Though, from our perspective as humans, a damn convincing illusion.


I think we pick our parents before we are born, and so perhaps the type of upbringing we have and the resulting type of person we are can be viewed as a type of self-created destiny. I also believe that certain other spirits are drawn to us lifetime after lifetime - in this one as our lover, in the next maybe as our child - such that these meetings and reunions are also a type of destiny.

But I don't think there's anything we are here to DO, or that we are here to learn anything in particular on our journey through each lifetime. It's all free will - with the power of our will to create - and that we are creating our reality all the time - whether we do so consciously or not, whether we are meaning to or not. And so, we are free to create for ourselves a destiny, if we so desire. And we are free to create a fulfillment of fate - - even if we are the ones who created that fate to begin with.





Edited to add: I do believe in karma, but perhaps not the type of karma that is popularly imagined as one life being filled with the results of the past lifetime's deeds. That being said, however, I think there is something to the concept of what goes around, comes around. And I also believe that we tend to become that which we judge.

Perhaps the goes around, comes around is a result of our own consciences, our own guilt - and that maybe people without any remorse whatsoever dont' create the universe where they get what's coming to them. And perhaps the becoming that which we judge is simply a matter of wishing to experience all aspects of being, and not some sort of cosmic retribution for the sin of being judgmental.

In any case, these forms of karma can be independent of us or can be created by us. Perhaps some of the karmic forces are a result of the mass consciousness. But again, it's all a hopelessly tangled combination of free will and destiny at work.

[innerSpaceman]

Did i answer the question?

[Kevy Baby]

I just love these silly friovolous threads!

I believe that everything happens in our lives because we make it so, whether intentionally or unintentionally, consciously or unconsciously, physically or energetically. With that, I try to take responsibility for my actions in life, be they good or bad. This thought is also why I believe that the single largest problem befalling our society is that of personal responsibility - it is woefully missing in the world today.

Like ISM, I believe in Karma. More specifically, as I practice a Wiccan belief, I believe in the 3-Fold Reed: that everything you send out in the world will come back to you three-fold.

When I was younger I would often fantasize that all of life was just a huge play and everybody was just acting their role. Not sure how this fits in with the question, but it seemed as good as any time to bring it up.

Did i answer the question?I don't know how the OP feels, but I think you did a fine job!

[€uroMeinke]

Oddly enough, I think it's Alex's "unknowable" which makes me abandon any absolute metaphysics and fall back on phenomenology, my experience of the world - stating with the Cartesian premise, "I think therefore I am."

Alex's view may well be reality, but does nothing to inform me of how I might change my actions. See, illusory or not - I experience the world as if I have free will and even if I come to the conclusion that science reduces all my actions into chemical or sub-atomic reactions - I'm still left with a notions of "well, what am I going to do about it then?" and the illusion of free will emerges again, so in my phenomenological world, I have to accept that.

Steve's notion of the nonexistence - or ultimate compression of time is an interesting one, that there is no duration or sequence, rather just being - if I understand correctly. It makes questions of fate or destiny rather different, in a sense it becomes all the stuff that you are missing in that sigularity of compressed time. For me though, since I experience the passge of time, I have to also reject that notion even if it is true, as I have a creative sense of guiding my future.

[wendybeth]

I have a very scattered and selective philosophical view of my life- I don't presume to know what's going on in anyone elses sphere of existence- kinda got my hands full with my own.

First and foremost- depends on my mood. Seriously- I can be so damned mercurial, and I know it. I suppose at my core I believe in personal responsibility and choice, yet I can't help but notice how fated things can sometimes appear to be. I was raised by a relatively enlightened madwoman, who exposed me to whatever religion/philosophy/scientific discipline she was following at the time. As a result, I learned a little about a lot, particularily eastern religions and metaphysical philosophies. (Damned Sixties!) The only thing that has remained constant over the years is this persistant feeling I've always had that there is much I cannot know now, but someday I will know it. That's enough for me, but it doesn't keep me from searching. I also believe in the concept of karma, in that there must be balance in all things natural, and anytime that balance is thrown off the offender will pay- one way or another.

Tomorrow, I will post something quite different. Told you I was moody.:D

[Gemini Cricket]

My answer: I don't know.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/shrug.gif

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm with € n the "sure it MIGHT be that way, but I gotta go with what I can see from my perspective" camp. I'm perfectly willing to believe my sense of self is a complete illusion, the result of an elaborate dream by some other being. But even if that's so, I have no way to experience myself as that, all I have is the perception of this life.

As for what that perception is...I suppose I believe in the possibility of fate and destiny, but believe it's so unknowable as to be irrelevent. I simply live my life by making the choices I think are right. Whether those choices are truly free or guided entirely by some other force (natural, pretanatural, supernatural, unnatural) I'll never know. So I tend not to really ponder it too much.

I do believe in God, but so far the only thing I've proven to myself is the existence of that God, not "his" nature. I have some assumptions and working theories, but none of them are solid. Therefore, my personal sense of self and morality that I've built remain valid to me whether God exists or not. While I personally believe that God does have something to do with my life, if I'm wrong about that I would still prefer my life to have some meaning, so I make my own.

[scaeagles]

I do not beleive in fate, destiny, or preordination. I believe in the concept of free will.

Why? Well, I suppose that is not an easy answer.

I am a basic Bible believing, Jesus worshipping Christian. I believe that God exists and has always existed. I believe he exists at all points in time. Being that, he knows exactly what will happen in my life. Does this mean it is preordained? Not in the least. I have free will to make choices. God just knows what choices I am going to make.

Though raised in a "Christian" family - meaning your basic suburban church going family - my family situation actually drove me away from any practical application of faith for several years. Various personal experiences and revelations brought me back to it.

I think I answered the OP questions, so I'll leave it at that. I certainly have more than my share of religious/philosophical thoughts which I have no doubt no one wants to read about.

[Capt Jack]

Did i answer the question?

Sure...as well as it can actually be answered yes. I dont expect "answers" here, just thoughts. Your post more than meets that criteria.

Tomorrow, I will post something quite different. Told you I was moody.:D

That seems to follow alot of what Ive found as well. From day to day and even hour to hour, thoughts perceptions and reasoning change with state of mind, emotional state, circumstance etc.


My answer: I don't know.

Welcome to my world. I'm not much beyond that point myself....hence the question.


I just realized I never posted my thoughts on the subject.

In many ways, I see the whole concept as a fish swimming in a fast flowing river. the fish holds free will to do as it must or wants within the confines of the river itself, yet the river is unyeilding in its boundaries and flow. the fish can swim upstream or down, side to side, up and down as it wishes and perform whatever actions as it progresses along yet cannot leave the river itself. the river will eventually take the fish to where it is destined to be, one way or another and without regard to actions taken during the journey.

thanks everyone. keep 'em coming. facinating stuff. Ive never had to hit dictionary.com so many times in one thread in my life. :D



I think I answered the OP questions, so I'll leave it at that.

that you did. thanks

[Alex]

Alex's view may well be reality, but does nothing to inform me of how I might change my actions.
Absolutely, thus I don't really see a conflict between what I think is the nature of the universe and the fact that I feel societal and personal judgement are important. That I try to live a live as I think should be lived.

Even though I don't think there is any such thing as should, we are hardwired to think in those terms. I don't believe I cause anything but don't really have a choice but to think as if I do.

If you shot a photon from our sun towards Mars, and then could give it the ability to think, I think it could only have one possible thought: "I really want to go to Mars." That is, the first thing the photon would do with its ability to think is imbue its course with intent.

I also think it is likely that we are generally hardwired to believe in "gods" and that somehow this hardwiring is deficient in me (I've never had a moment of spiritual or religious faith or revelation in my life) and so to the extent that I do interpret the universe it is completely in the absence of the supernatural.

[Ponine]

Like ISM, I believe in Karma. More specifically, as I practice a Wiccan belief, I believe in the 3-Fold Reed: that everything you send out in the world will come back to you three-fold.

Kevy : Could you elaborate please?

I want to give an opinion, but I think I want to know what this means first.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Like Wendybeth, my opinions on this change according to mood. This leads me to believe that all angles are true to some degree.

I hope to keep this somewhat brief...

I believe in God, and I believe God created the world for us to play in, and the only way to play is to have free will. I can't help but believe in minor miracles though - I do feel that God has helped me out many times over. Just a nudge, once in a while, doesn't cancel out free will....does it?

Destiny is simple - A + B = C. I found the love of my life at 18 yrs old. This means that I decided not to travel the world. It also means I followed him to Orange County. I'm now fulfilling my destiny, here. Had I not met him that year, I probably would have moved to another state or country to seek my fortune (yes, that really was my plan B). And then my destiny would have been far different.

I believe that each of us has the capabilities to be many different people. Everyone's multi-talented - it's just a matter of what you concentrate on. I wouldn't limit my perspective on myself by saying I only had one destiny.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

So my purpose is my own making, my destiny is how others interpret my life when I'm no longer here living it.

Yes.

I will also add this quote:

It is wrong to chide the novel for being satisfied by mysterious coincidences, but it is right to chide man for being blind to such coincidences in his daily life. For he thereby deprives his life of a dimension of beauty.
- Milan Kundera

[Source: The Unbearable Lightness of Being]

[innerSpaceman]

I have a very cool reminder of my no-coincidences theory of coincidence.

Every few months, usually for a few nights in a row, I will awaken only once in the middle of the night and open my eyes to see my clock display an odd series of numbers. It's either 1:11 a.m. or 2:22 a.m., or it will be 2:34 a.m. or 5:46 a.m. I will not awake at any other time of those nights to see random numbers like 1:37 a.m. or 3:15 a.m. It will only be a sequential series or identical series of numbers, and will happen only once per night, usually for a few nights in a row, and then cease for a few months.

This is my reminder from the universe that seeming coincidences are usually not coincidences at all. It might be presumed that someone with my innate time sence (I rely on no alarm clocks, but awake near 7:00 a.m. each day) might unconsciously be awakening only at times when I know there will be a sequential or identical series of numbers displayed on the clock. But I don't think so. (My 7 o'clock daily awakening can happen roughly anytime from 6:56 a.m to 7:07 a.m. - - thus I presume that my internal time sense is not so precise as to explain the middle-of-the-night clock-talk from God phenomena).




Oh, in the wee hours of this morning, I opened my eyes at exactly 5:55.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm fascinated with coincidences and have come to no conclusions regarding their relative importance. Natural result of the infinite combination of events ocurring around us at all times? Outcropping of our internal need to project order on the chaotic world? Unconscious shaping of our environment to our own thoughts? Picking up on as-to-yet unkown information that's out there? God intervening? Consequence of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? I'd believe any of it.

Whatever the inherent meaning, or lack there of, they sure are fun to pay attention. Like this weekend when I suddenly remembered I had to call my mom...only to get a busy signal because she was dialing my number at the exact same moment...only to hang up with her and have CP immediately call to remind me to call my mom. Or the countless times my mind wanders to thoughts of someone I haven't seen or thought about in years, only to have them appear (either in person or in the form of news of their whereabouts) within the next day.

[scaeagles]

Oh, in the wee hours of this morning, I opened my eyes at exactly 5:55.

Wee hours? That's wee hours? Good lord I miss the days of no kids sometimes.....

[€uroMeinke]

I certainly have more than my share of religious/philosophical thoughts which I have no doubt no one wants to read about.

Quite the contrary, while an athiest myself I love to hear people's personal experiences with God. I believe I have the same messed-up wireing as Alex so my atheism comes to me not so much from a rejection of the supernatural, but rather a sense of personal integrity in that I just don't recognize god in my day to day life and to claim it would be dishonest to my personal experience. But I know plenty who have had that numinous experience, the sense of God's presence and that fascinates me, for who am I to discount the personal experience of others?

will also add this quote:

It is wrong to chide the novel for being satisfied by mysterious coincidences, but it is right to chide man for being blind to such coincidences in his daily life. For he thereby deprives his life of a dimension of beauty.
- Milan Kundera


Much better said, I simply delight in discovering the connections in the disconnected - it is a most humbling beauty and source of pleasure even in the bleakest circumstances

[scaeagles]

I believe I have the same messed-up wireing as Alex so my atheism....

I find that to be an interesting statement by both you and Alex. Messed up wiring. I have found most atheists I have known (not a whole bunch mind you, but a few) and those who make themselves known in the media are quite a condescending bunch who think they are the only ones with wiring that works. Can't quantify God, so therefore no God can exist. Only logical to them, and anything else is unlogical. Proof rather than faith or it is simply gibberish. I find your attitude quite refreshing.

I have had my experiences with what I believe to be supernatural forces. I have no doubt about I experienced and no doubt what the cause was. However, that being said, I have had other experiences that make make me certainly figure that God is not someone to meddle in my day to day affairs, whether I ask him to or not. I used the term "divine micromanagement" in a thread a while ago, and I simply don't believe that God operates in that fashion.

God established the world with certain natural and physical laws. With exception, of course, he allows those those laws to play themselves out. He provided free will to allow the choice to do whatever we would wish. I am reminded of this exchange from "Bruce Almighty" -

Bruce: "How do you make someone love you without messing with free will?"
God: "Welcome to my world."

[lizziebith]

Caminante, no hay camino...Se hace camino al andar. -- Antonio Machado (1875-1939)

From a poem I read about 10 years ago... the translation is, roughly: "walker, there is no road...we build the road by walking."

Ever since I read this, I've felt a sense of peace about my crazy life. I never would have thought I'd be the person I am now -- by this I mean: lead the lifestyle I live, hold the job I hold, have the friends/loved ones I have. The younger me would have been aghast. I'm no longer filled with righteous anger, I no longer cling to people in the hopes that said contact might make me whole, I no longer believe ANYTHING to be true, solid, or absolute. And my years of life have made this so. And, dare I say, happy.

I have built my life, as the poem says, by moving through it, and learning from it. I have NEVER pretended to know what was around the bend, and have been, consequentially, both delighted and horrified by what I've found there. But I've NEVER, ever, been bored or disappointed by life. I've watched it unfold, almost like a disinterested observer, and said to myself: "Wow. Never saw THAT coming."

I believe that every experience I have I take on as my "walker's baggage." I can then use it or discard it as needed, as I encounter each new experience. There is no fate, as the future (and past -- my interpretation of it, at least!) doesn't exist, until some weird accident on the part of all the known and unknown forces of the universe, suddenly forges a new path for me.

I put on my little rucksack, and venture forth, hopefully, and with GREAT interest.

[€uroMeinke]

I find that to be an interesting statement by both you and Alex. Messed up wiring. I have found most atheists I have known (not a whole bunch mind you, but a few) and those who make themselves known in the media are quite a condescending bunch who think they are the only ones with wiring that works.

Heh heh, what is it about the media that makes the people who share your beliefs such an embarrasment? Regardless of beliefs I have a sound distaste for righteousness which unfortunately seems to have it's adherents everywhere. Give me a sincere Christian over a righteous atheist any day.

The existence of God is an interesting question, the nature of God infinitely more complex. I'm reading Umberto Ecco's Baudolino right now which spends a lot of time wrapped in discussions of theology and philosophy from a medieval perspective. At times it seems silly recounting the various heresies of the times concerning the divine nature of Christ, the Trinity, the perfection of God, etc. but it's playfulness seems to underscore the impossible task of truely defining who or what God is, especially through the use of logic and reasoning.

[Alex]

You should track down and read The Heavenly City of the Eighteenth-Century Philosphers. It is an old book, essentially a transcription of a series of lectures given by Carl L. Becker at Yale Law School in 1932.

Becker was a philosopher/historian (and in the book he does a great job of illustrating where those disciplines separate). The first part is about how "reason" and "logic" as we know it today to undermine religion is essentially the same thing as used by Dante and Thomas Aquinas to support it.

Part II is about how the 18th century philosphers overthrew Aquinas's "Heavenly City" using logic, reason, and observation (the scientific method), and how they were appalled by where this lead them (a purely mechanical universe without purpose). They then recoiled instinctively and created a new Heavenly City out of "natural law" with posterity playing the role of Jesus.

The whole book is only about 160 pages and is so well written that I think you'd really enjoy it if you haven't already read it. Since it is based on lectures it reads out loud particularly well and whenever I reread it I mostly do so out loud so I can feel the flow and energy of it.

Essentially, it is seeking to dispel the notion that Hume, Diderot, Voltaire, etc. had an essentially modern mindset toward logic, rationality, and atheism.


scaeagles, I never termed my wiring as messed up. It is just the way it is. Just as I think your wiring makes you believe in a god that doesn't exist because evolutionary forces found an advantage in such belief. As we've solidified the post-evolutionary nature of man I think such tendency towards blind faith will slowly dilute and perhaps eventually disappear.

I imagine you would find this the most condescending view of your faith possible: essentially, that you can't help it. (Also, I don't really claim that god doesn't exist, just that until something even remotely suggests such an existence I see no reason to suppose it.)

[scaeagles]

Heh heh, what is it about the media that makes the people who share your beliefs such an embarrasment?

Most certainly there are many.

[scaeagles]

I imagine you would find this the most condescending view of your faith possible: essentially, that you can't help it.

Not really, because, well, I can help it. I have most certainly gone through major time pans in my life that included no faith or adherence to such at all. Experiences that go beyond faith - and showed me the reality of what i believe - most certainly have given me a grounding I may have never found otherwise.

[Alex]

Yes, but we aren't talking about reality. We're talking about what we think reality is. And regardless of how much you think your faith is a choice, I do not.

And since you think I have a choice in what I think, me essentially saying you're not responsible for your thinking (or faithing) is, I would think, condescending. But I wouldn't suppose to tell you what you must think of what I think of your thinking, it was just a prediction on my part.

[wendybeth]

I do subscribe to the belief that some people are wired in such a way that they lean toward the spiritual in life, whereas others are more scientific or empirical. Lol- my mom always said that even though I am a Leo, my Pisces moon cancelled out my leonine tendencies towards materialism and gave me a more spiritual outlook- she would say this like she did me a huge favor having me at that place in time.:rolleyes: (She is an accomplished astrologist, although it's not really done anything for her). I tend to believe a bit in both- that it helps to have an inclination toward spirituality, but experience plays heavily into what a person ultimately developes as a belief system.

That's today, anyway.;)

[Kevy Baby]

Kevy : Could you elaborate please?

I want to give an opinion, but I think I want to know what this means first.It is hard to provide a detailed elaboration to such a basic concept (I say this not to be condescending, but because the question has me a little stumped). In searching for an answer online which would (hopefully) help me better express the thought, I ran across this:
Witches have a very strict belief in the Law of Three which states that whatever we send out into our world shall return to us three fold either good or bane. With this in mind, a "True Witch" would hesitate in doing magick to harm or manipulate another because that boomerang we throw will eventually come back to us much larger and harder then when we threw it.

Also, there are variations of the "Wiccan Reed" (or "Rede"), which sort of highlights many of the beliefs that many Witches follow. One such variation can be found here (http://www.angelfire.com/moon/dragonsblood/rede.html). The conclusion is almost always:

These Eight words the Reed fulfill:
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

One of the more interesting (to me) aspects of Wicca is that it is VERY loosly defined. There are no hard and fast rules and definitely no dogma. It is a very eclectic belief system with much room for customization for personal preferences and beliefs. Our "Coven" (I use that term VERY loosly as we are small and hardly take ourselves too seriously) get-togethers are often as much social as they are spiritual.

Wicca does not involve blood-letting, animal sacrafice or running around naked in the woods. Also, other than a few words and symbols that have been borrowed and grossly distorted, "Charmed" has NOTHING to do with Wicca (although GusGus and I do watch it).

Wicca IS a simple, earth-based Pagan belief system

Does that answer your question?

[Fab]

Having returned to the Catholic Church in the seventeen years since I last posted here, I do believe in God, Mary, etc. but my leanings are more Socialist Rebel Pagan Roots Gnostic Mary Magdalene was the true head of the church after Christ type. Fortunately, I have a Radical Socialist Priest from the Philippines as my confessor, who laughs himself into tears every time I stroll into the Confessional.

But there is one thing: I think God is "only human" and does make mistakes. It's the only way I can accept everything else that's happened.

[€uroMeinke]

Wicca does not involve blood-letting, animal sacrafice or running around naked in the woods.

Damn

[Ghoulish Delight]

Wicca does not involve...running around naked in the woods. That's not what you told me last Saturday!

[scaeagles]

To which part?

Killing a few cats would make it appealing to me.

I guess it would depend on who was running around naked.

Blood letting? I suppose it depends on who was bleeding.

[Capt Jack]

I have a very cool reminder ........I will awaken only once in the middle of the night and open my eyes to see my clock display an odd series of numbers. It's either 1:11 a.m. or 2:22 a.m., or .....


I could throttle you. :p

Woke up @ 3:33 am this morning...saw it, thought of your post and started laughing....rendering me even more awake.

so much for what little sleep I was already getting.:)

:coffee:

[Not Afraid]

One day I'll stop contemplating this question and write about it.

I guess there are certain things that are unknowable to me and that's fine with me. I just try to keep taking steps in the right direction and the rest will become evident.

In regards to Karma, well, there may be a "Karma Police" but I'm not on the force. I let them do their job and keep to what I can "control".

But, I'm sure there's more going on in that minefield of a brain of mine.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I like to believe in Karma because I like the idea that everyone gets what they deserve. Cause and eventual effect. Doesn't mean that I have any evidence that it's real, and I wouldn't debate anyone on it, but it's a happy idea, and it makes sense to me.

I think this relates to what people are talking about "wiring". When my faith in fairness falters, I get depressed. I've seen enough injustice in this world to be really dismayed by it. I need to believe in the triumph of truth and understanding. Otherwise, this world would suck too much for me to feel good about living. I think this is part of what people refer to when they say "I just know God exists." I just know that things turn out correctly, eventually.

I'd venture to guess that those that are perfectly happy with an Atheistic view are also happy with a world that simply is, with only the observable laws of nature as we understand them to govern it.

I'd say we accept our own realities that we are most comfortable in.

[CoasterMatt]

In regards to Karma, well, there may be a "Karma Police" but I'm not on the force. .
What about the Dream Police? :cool:

[Not Afraid]

They live inside my head.

[Alex]

I'd venture to guess that those that are perfectly happy with an Atheistic view are also happy with a world that simply is, with only the observable laws of nature as we understand them to govern it.
I wouldn't say that I'm happy with the way the universe is, just accepting of the fact that wishing the universe and life have purpose doesn't give it one. But a lot of people say that to me, don't I find it depressing to think that the universe just is what it is. That we are incapable of making things better. That things will get worse or better (as we perceive worse and better) due to essentially random interactions of physical laws? I don't know how to respond, because it really doesn't bother me. It doesn't make me happy but it doesn't depress me either.


I am also accepting of the fact that not everything is knowable. It may be that one day we'll understand all the physical laws and properties of the universe. It may be that the human brain is physically incapable of comprehending certain things that would be necessary for such understanding. I just don't deify that which isn't or can't be known.

I see a lot of "I believe this because I would prefer it be true" in people's faiths and I must admit it confuses me. I'm not saying you have to justify it (at least not in this thread; when people insist on real world results from of their faith and worship then I do tend to request supporting evidence), just that I can't fathom it. Lani is this way. She believes in an afterlife. Ask her why and she'll say something along the lines of "because I like the idea of it" or "because I don't like the thought that we just stop." She's not religious, just hopeful.

[€uroMeinke]

We all have to figure out what we're going to do in the face of the unknown, so we all need beliefs of some fashion. While I suppose there is some value of attaining a Zen like comfort with the now and pure being - to paraphrase an I <3 Huckabee's line, the is the inevitability of Human Drama to draw us in. We have a corporeal experience that has wants and needs to be satisfied and so we need to make decissions on how we will navigate our lives - we don't know our futures, yet we continually move in that direction (or such is my experience ;) ).

I'm comfortable with the unknowable, and titilated with the absurd - so I'm a shoe in with the existentialists and dadaist of the world. There just is too much to laugh about to get depressed about something I have no control over.

Perhaps the benefit of Faith, is that it allows you to pass along those things you have no control over to an entity that presumably does. You no longer have to worry, and can be relieved that someone is doing something about the perceived injustice, evil, and bad hair days of the world.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Caminante, no hay camino...Se hace camino al andar. -- Antonio Machado (1875-1939)

From a poem I read about 10 years ago... the translation is, roughly: "walker, there is no road...we build the road by walking."


That just got my little bird heart beating very, very fast. Beautiful!

[lizziebith]

Don't laugh, but I used to "pray" for faith -- but it has never come. So I have to believe that I'm just not wired that way. Still and all I think I do okay without it. I have a hyperdeveloped sense of right and wrong, and I'm the goofiest, ****-eyed-est optimist I know. And I don't believe in an afterlife or reward of any kind for it. It's just the only way I know how to be. Goodness is its own reward, and life is infinitely interesting. I don't think there's a plan, and my story will only become a narrative superimposed upon my life, if anyone cares, after it's done.

I take only memories, and leave only footprints. I ramble therefore I am.

EDIT: Hilarious! Cockeyed got bleeped!

[Kevy Baby]

They live inside my head.Do they come to you in your bed?

[Not Afraid]

They’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

[Moonliner]

The "Big Picture" eh?

Who are we, why are we, what is god and what is fate?

Wow not easy to address is it? But little that is worth doing is easy....

I've always considered myself an Atheist. The idea that the "Universe" (aka God, Allah, Buda, etc...) gives a rats posterior about me, who I am and what I do always struck me as way way too optimistic. The universe just is.

The same with fate and predetermination. If it's predetermined it had to be planned and frankly who has the time for that sort of thing? Some all powerful being is out there working to infinity so that today, for no apparent reason, I choose to put on my left shoe before my right rather than the other way round? I can't buy into that.

However it cannot be denied that many very reasonable people seem to swear by the higher power concept in one form or another. So it does seem a bit rude (not to mention egotistical) to just blow them ALL off as delusional.

So trying to be a "polite" atheists would seem to lead one down the path to being an agnostic but I've always seen agnostics as wishy-washy and frankly a bit on the sissy side. Not able to decide one way or another. I'd never make a good agnostic so I had to pass on that.

Which left me looking for a reasonable universal doctrine that I can practice. One that I can live with inside myself and at the same time not be perceived by the faithful as attacking their beliefs with my beliefs. It took some time, but I finally decided. I'm an Apatheist. God? No God? Fate or just luck? I don't really care. Let's talk about where we'd like to go to lunch instead.

[Not Afraid]

Was it fate or destiny that I downloaded Cheap Trick's "Dream Police" from iTunes tonight?

[wendybeth]

...Perhaps the benefit of Faith, is that it allows you to pass along those things you have no control over to an entity that presumably does. You no longer have to worry, and can be relieved that someone is doing something about the perceived injustice, evil, and bad hair days of the world.
Now, I have a different view in that regards. I think that it's much easier to just believe that it ends and is entirely over with your last breath. No more worries, nada, and you won't care, because your power source has been switched off and you no longer think. You no longer are.

Belief in the continuance after death of one's self brings with it a whole new set of responsibilities. If you believe in reincarnation, you are living your current life in accordance with how you want to live your next life. If you belong to the typical Christian-type religion, you are encouraged to follow a lifestyle that fits within your church's definition of 'righteous', or face going south for eternity. There are few religions that don't have a code or set of requirements one must follow in order to gain whatever it is they are promising in the afterlife. It seems to me that being an atheist must be freeing in a way, although I'm sure it has it's downside as well. (Mind you, I am not talking about behavior, because most atheists and agnostics I know are the most ethical and moral people around- they don't need to be threatened with eternal damnation to be good, they just are). It's also harder to reconcile injustice, because we often don't see karmic payback in this life and people get away with horrible things all the time. This probably causes more crisis of faith than just about anything else, especially since we aren't allowed to go vigilante and stuff.:rolleyes:

[€uroMeinke]

I guess I was thinking more in the face of the unknown. With faith, you needed trouble yourself trying to figure it out - it is simply God's Will, or workinging in mysterious ways, etc. I guess the rules or moral codes fall out of that in their attempts to put something concrete around those unknowns.

I think the most troubled souls are those that follow whatever dogma (religious or atheistic) without actually embracing those beliefs.

[wendybeth]

You're right- it's a workout actually wading through the dogma and trying to arrive at a truth that works for you. It's much easier to blindly follow or not question at all. I suppose one can question too much and just wind up confused about everything, but I respect that far more than I do someone who dogmatically sees things in black and white and refuses to even try and look at things differently.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Dang, ISM, you said everything I could have, only better! :) Was it fate that I didn't read this until after you posted? :)

The thing that stands out most is you share my belief that time is happening all at once. It's rare that I find somebody who will consider that.

I believe we create the world around us. My husband challenged me on that, asking me if the world really was flat and the center of the universe when everybody believed that to be true. I couldn't answer that, though my initial thought is that yes, somehow, it had to be flat. I'm reading a book on quantum physics and the "observer effect" seems to bring us back to humans creating our world by thought. At the very least, we create the kind of interactions that we choose. If I smile at somebody while shopping at the mall, hopefully their day is just a tiny bit brighter, and they may pass that on to the next person or two. Tiny sparks, true, but it's at least on the preferred side of the balance sheet.

I believe we choose the circumstances of our life. If I had a really good life in a particular circumstance, one would think I would choose it again. I would meet the same kind of people there as in the past, hopefully, so the same souls would be drawn together again.

I believe coincidence is more than chance. I'm not quite sure what it means, but it means something.

I do believe in a higher power, though it could be created by man's consistant belief and need. The Norse (I am told) believed the gods changed with man and his belief. This definitely makes sense to me.

[Alex]

I believe we create the world around us. My husband challenged me on that, asking me if the world really was flat and the center of the universe when everybody believed that to be true. I couldn't answer that, though my initial thought is that yes, somehow, it had to be flat.

For me this raises a question. I'm curious how you would answer (though, of course, you don't need to):

What about the, at least, 2,000 years when all educated people knew the earth is round (the ancient Greeks had competing calculations of the circumference, some of which were amazingly accurate) and the uneducated believed it to be flat?

Is the reality creating require a shared belief or an individual one?

[innerSpaceman]

I could throttle you. :p

Woke up @ 3:33 am this morning...saw it, thought of your post and started laughing....rendering me even more awake.

The night following my 5:55 experience, I awoke at 3:21. It was like seeing a countdown, but a countdown to what? As used to I am to the clock experience, and as much as I can rely on it not to be a one-night-only thing, it never ceases to startle me into awakeness ... and the 3,2,1 countdown got to me more than most.

It did not repeat the third night. Unusual, but not unprecedented. They mostly come in threes (hmmm, maybe it's a Wicca thing), but one time happened for 7 straight days. A few times, it's just a pairing - which is what this latest bout seems to have been.


It never feels creepy (like what waking up at precisely 3:00 meant in 'The Exorcism of Audrey Rose), but it never fails to bring sudden and unwanted wakefulness.



Besides demonstrating (I think) that there are no coincidences, WHAT IN HELL DOES IT MEAN????!?!

[Ghoulish Delight]

... but it never fails to bring sudden and unwanted wakefulness.
Hmm, so you're saying you reach a certain bare minimal level of consciousness, enough to turn your head and look at the clock, and then once you see the mysterious numbers, you are then jolted into a more conscious state? Ever consider the possibility that you reach that first state several times a night and failing to see a time that matches your coincidence, just roll over and go back to sleep, never reaching a high enough state of consciousness to remember it?

[Kevy Baby]

...WHAT IN HELL DOES IT MEAN????!?!It could your subconcious attempting to communicate with your concious self and relay some important truism about your life and destiny.

Or it could just be that you are having trouble sleeping through the night.

It's a mystery.

[Capt Jack]

Besides demonstrating (I think) that there are no coincidences, WHAT IN HELL DOES IT MEAN????!?!

kinda like being trapped in some sorta freaky 'Lost' episode, isnt it?

this mornings was 5:55 am

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Hmm, so you're saying you reach a certain bare minimal level of consciousness, enough to turn your head and look at the clock, and then once you see the mysterious numbers, you are then jolted into a more conscious state? Ever consider the possibility that you reach that first state several times a night and failing to see a time that matches your coincidence, just roll over and go back to sleep, never reaching a high enough state of consciousness to remember it?Mystery solved

[Ponine]

It is hard to provide a detailed elaboration to such a basic concept (I say this not to be condescending, but because the question has me a little stumped). In searching for an answer online which would (hopefully) help me better express the thought, I ran across this: Witches have a very strict belief in the Law of Three which states that whatever we send out into our world shall return to us three fold either good or bane. With this in mind, a "True Witch" would hesitate in doing magick to harm or manipulate another because that boomerang we throw will eventually come back to us much larger and harder then when we threw it.

Oh Kevy, I have agonized over this for days…. For hours at a time, and occasionally, mere moments.
I’ve always been referred to as a fatalist. I always thought it was because I always expect the worst case scenario.
I see now, that in fact, that is not what the word means.
I am far too solicitous for any one persons well being. And I think in a great many ways that has a lot to do with how I see the ideas of fate and destiny.

I’ve seen too many different religions at my young age to take one and just run with it and accept what it has to say as gospel truth.
I was accused of witchcraft as a teenager, and made an example of to my school… this clouds my perceptions of the Wicca faith. (Not that it is in any way wrong, I have just never delved because of my previous experiences.)

Also, there are variations of the "Wiccan Reed" (or "Rede"), …snip… This I was unable to view, it was blocked.

Nevertheless…
I’ve read things that I agree with this and that, and never quite agree with all….
I believe that we, as people, are set into this life with a reason to be here, but that reason is different for each of us.
We are able to “create” the better part of our lives by our actions, and how we interact with our world.
I believe we are connected to other people, or souls repeatedly over time, and possibly in different ways.
My best friend now, may be my brother in the next life, he may be my father. The boyfriend that touched me so deeply before his untimely death, may reoccur in a similar role, never to fufill, but always to affect.

There’s a reason for the people we encounter, we just don’t know what it is at the time.
Do I believe in the idea of the three fold … interesting. I like it, and I can see its merit. I am a very firm believer in the golden rule. Those of you who know me have prob seen it demonstrated in less than ideal situations.
I don’t want to wrong anyone, and I obsess over it when I think I have. Sometimes to an extreme point of figuring out what I can do to make it up to them.

Do I think some of it is pre-ordained? Absolutely. I agree with ISM,


Does that answer your question? It does and it doesn’t , but I suspect you guessed that. I am unsure what an “simple, earth-based Pagan belief system” is, but in this scenario I think that’s okay.

I’m rambling… at its core… I suppose I believe in fate, more than destiny. The ties that bind, the yarns in the tapestry of life…
My soul is bound to yours, who we are to each other this lifetime is not at stake, but I will always be bound.