Let's Do Something about that DCA Problem

[innerSpaceman]

Wow, according to Al’s latest Update (http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al112806a.htm), famed Imagineer Tony Baxter is pushing for a radical plan to roll DCA into Downtown Disney and give up on calling it a theme park and charging for admission to the failed project.


Zoiks ... I can’t imagine the suits at Disney going for this, although I think it is the only proposal that faces reality. Steve Lassiter’s plans call for millions in upgrades and new attractions ... but Baxter’s camp feels the park is inherently flawed and no amount of money will ever make it a worthwhile companion park to Disneyland. I have to agree.

This reminds me of the failed and similarly named "Grand Adventures" Park in Las Vegas. It was a lame theme park behind the MGM Grand hotel. Originally, admission was charged for entry and all attractions were included. It wasn’t long, though, before the admission charge was scrapped and everyone was free to wander around, paying separately for any rides. Um, that didn’t work either. No one wanted to even wander around the place. Granted, it was an outdoor park in the hot Las Vegas desert ... but MGM eventually bowed to the inevitable, and the place was bulldozed.

I don’t see much better a fate for DCA. Isn’t everyone pretty much wandering around there for free right now? No one’s paying admission, right? It’s 99% APs at all times, if I’m not mistaken.

Baxter’s plan calls for a hotel on Harbor, with new entrances there, on Katella, and perhaps a one or two from the existing DTD. New restaurants and shops would go in, and Vacation Club villas would be sprinkled throughout (that last part reportedly being the only thing that Lassiter is sparking to).

While I certainly wouldn’t mind some new restaurants at the Resort, I just don’t see any real difference coming from the plan to make DCA more officially an extension of Downtown Disney. Oh, I certainly think Baxter’s plan is far more feasible than Lassiter’s pipe(smokin’)-dream of turning DCA into a successful theme park. But frankly I think the MGM plan is best of all: Bring in the bulldozers.

[Alex]

No, it's not 99% AP holders. Not nearly.

It is 99% park hoppers. Hardly anybody ever buys single park admission for DCA and most park admissions (to either park) are park hoppers which cost more than they would if it were a single park admission. So most people pay something for DCA, even if they never go into the park.

[tracilicious]

I don't ever ever see that happening. Never.

I don't think DCA is all that bad. Granted, we go a few times a year, but it always earns 75% of a day off our hoppers. Soarin is great, Screamin is fun if there's not much of a line, Indi loves the Playhouse Disney show, Alladin, Tower, and Muppets all garner a visit from us. It would never be our sole reason for going, but since we're there we'll go. Oh, and the best soft serve ice cream on earth.

I wish they would improve the food. We almost never eat there.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I'd like to see them both combined into a place called Disneyland. Loose DCA name and create new names for the "lands." Have a underground tunnel under the esplanade connecting the two. Keep the uniquness of DCA, but transfuse some of the magic that the original has and DCA is greatly lacking.

Just a thought.

[CoasterMatt]

Can we start by removing my least favorite Intamin coaster (California Screamin')?

[Prudence]

I don't think the Tony Baxter plan will work. I don't see people buying a ride ticket for any of those rides. I think they'd just be used by people who bought passes to DL. And if those are the people already using it, that's not much change.

And I think that plan might do more harm. It's seems very Pressler-esque to pump the area full of hotels, shops, and restaurants. I think that will lead to less motivation to keep up the existing rides, which will lead to the bulldozer.

And I'm not convinced that the bulldozer is the way to go, because I don't trust them to do better starting from scratch. I think the motivation to get away with spending less would resurface, because it would be "new" cheap stuff and maybe it would work this time.

On the other hand, an existing problem is there, in your face, obviously needing a fix. And more retail/restaurants/hotels isn't the fix needed - it needs more/better attractions and a theme with a point. I could get behind the historical California theme. Vintage Hollywood? Cool! Disney-fied national park? Yay!

Will it be another equal to DL? No. But I don't think a replacement would be either. I think an inspired reimagining would give a better end product than giving up.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I vote for the complete bulldozer treatment. Yes, I have a few rides that I enjoy there, but once you start down that road you have each fan asking that something remain. That place is bad voodoo and needs to be wiped clean before it can be made into a true themed Disney park.

No offence, Traci. I know there are plenty of people that enjoy it there, but I've been to DLP and I know what a real modern budget can do when creating a theme park experience.

[innerSpaceman]

I wish they would improve the food. We almost never eat there.
Heheh, and I remember when the only reason we went there was for the food. Now, there's not even that. They can add all the "life-saving" attractions they want ... if anything, the park has (on the whole) gone downhill since it opened.


Keeping the example of Vegas' "Grand Adventures" in my mind ... I find that DCA is not even a particularly pleasant place to wander about. Most of it is UGLY. Here and there you'll find a pretty spot or a well-themed walkway. But that's not enough to even make it a nice place to "be."

Neither is Downtown Disney ... though it's not unpleasant. The key is the stores and restaurants that make DTD lively. A few dozen more restaurants might do the same for DCA. And the major rides will still be there if anyone wants to, say, ride Tower of Terror after a big meal.

I vote for the Baxter plan. Lassiter is all wet. He just wants his PixarRides to have a home. Can't say as I blame him, but he's all wrong about DCA.

It's doomed.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Great, your thread made me go read Al's report, and he always depresses me. Even after I started to feel good about the Pirate Island concept, the rest of it just makes me mad and sad. Lame.

[Gemini Cricket]

How about we just follow Joni Mitchell's advice?
"Pave Paradise (Pier) and put up a parking lot."

Ha ha. :D

[RStar]

I don't think Disney will ever remove a gate. So I feel the opening of it to DTD is not ever going to happen. There was, however, talk about the option of conecting it to Disneyland. That would also mean removing a seperate ticketed gate, something the suits won't redaliy let go of, and the bean counters at DL would have to absorb the costs of DCA. So that too is an uphill battle. Although opening it up to free entrance will allow the shops and resturants to do much more buisness.

So, as I see it, the concept with the best chance is to do one of two options.

1) Raze and rebuild

2) Massive overhaul

The rebuild could be like the overhaul on fastract closing the park for a year and using most of the infrustructer and buildings, but with heavy re-theeming and additions. Or it could be dozed to the earth and start all over again. It would be nice to get a burm!! Not to mention better CM facilities, extra restrooms, ect.

But the costs to raze and rebuild are so high, and NO income from the area dictate to the slow overhaul one area at a time with the costs spread out over many years looks like the best option for Disney.

[Prudence]

I don't know why so many of y'all think that razing and rebuilding will be an improvement. I have zero faith that they'd do it "right" a second time around. More likely, they'd just cut different corners.

[CoasterMatt]

Yeah, Disney Imagineering and Walt Disney Company need a cultural raze and rebuild...

[Not Afraid]

The sad thing is that, I don't CARE about DCA and I've lost hope that Disney can make anything good out of the mess they've created with DCA. DLP was a long time ago and TDS had OLC money. Disney on it's own has lost the ability to be great (probably because they've fired their most talented creatives).

[Moonliner]

I don't think either the bulldoze or free entry plans are going to work. So let's focus on the real issue (as I see it anyway)

DCA has some cool stuff:

Tower-of-terror
Soaring
Grizzly Rapids
Hyperion Theater
Screaming
Mailiboomer
Sun Wheel
Monsters, Inc.

and possibly others I've never visited like the adventure trail, or flicks play area, etc....

If DCA was a Six flags in Kansas I think we'd all be holding it out as a shining example of a cool park. DCA's real problem is location, location, location. Sitting snack dab next to the "one and only" is a tuff place to be.

Let's face it MGM studios ain't no great shakes either, in fact I'd take DCA over MGM any day of the week. However it gets great attendance because WDW is a destination resort. If you are there for four or five days and you have a park hopper you go to MGM. At DLR you still have too high a percentage of AP'ers and day trippers so DCA is a tuff sale.

So what can be done? Clearly the issue is theme. As has been discussed to death, DCA falls flat on it's face in the theming department. It's just not Disney. Attractions at Disneyland are "Disney" simply because they are at Disneyland. The Matterhorn, Space Mtn, Autopia, they don't need movie tie-ins because they are the very fabric of Disney. DCA is not so lucky. I think the only way to infuse some Disney magic into DCA is to blatantly steal it. Rework soaring , Grizzly, and the others to fit a Disney theme. PixarLand if you like or perhaps some of the animation classics. How hard would it be to give grizzly a brother bear theme, or Soaring an Incredibles makeover?

Then all you need to do is fill in the spaces in between these attractions with some good food and a few magical touches. Oh, and keep the booze of course.

[Prudence]

Moonliner has reminded me of other thing I wanted to say -- Maybe I'm misremembering, but it seems to me that when DCA opened they wanted to emphasize it's non-Disneyness. One way they did this was by not having the Disney characters there. And so forth and so on.

And that didn't work. As Moonliner points out, what makes Disneyland Disneyland is that it's Disneyland. If you make DCA non-Disney, it's never going to have that magical spark that makes Disneyland special.

I thought much of the giant re-do proposal, as described in Al's column, sounded great. It kept the bits I liked most and ix-nayed the bits I hated most.

[mousepod]

Moonliner has a point - but the counterpoint will always be TDS. It's hardly "Disney", it's not truly a resort, and it's butted up against TDL, which is clearly the more familiar park - yet it's incredibly popular and a marvel to behold. For me, it's all about the execution...

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It's hardly "Disney", it's not truly a resort, and it's butted up against TDL, which is clearly the more familiar park...TDL - Teh Disney Land!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

The sad thing is that, I don't CARE about DCA and I've lost hope that Disney can make anything good out of the mess they've created with DCA. DLP was a long time ago and TDS had OLC money. Disney on it's own has lost the ability to be great (probably because they've fired their most talented creatives).They need to give the Oriental Land Company a call.

[Moonliner]

Moonliner has a point - but the counterpoint will always be TDS. It's hardly "Disney", it's not truly a resort, and it's butted up against TDL, which is clearly the more familiar park - yet it's incredibly popular and a marvel to behold. For me, it's all about the execution...

Ahh, I was also assuming a budget in the low $100's of millions not billions. However if you can talk the suits into it, then that works for me. :)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Moonliner has a point - but the counterpoint will always be TDS. It's hardly "Disney", it's not truly a resort, and it's butted up against TDL, which is clearly the more familiar park - yet it's incredibly popular and a marvel to behold. For me, it's all about the execution... Bingo.

I always like to point out that my 4 top favorite attractions (HM, Space Mountain, PotC, Matterhorn) at Disneyland are NOT movie based attractions (well, Pirates used to not be...). And, it's no coincidence, that those 4 consistently rank among the top in the general population, so I'm not alone.
The only "Disney" element those attractions had was execution, to use Moonliner's terminology. They were the best attractions built in the world when they opened.

DCA simply doesn't have that, and no amount of rethemining, repackaging, repurposing, etc is going to change that. To me, the ONLY thing that will ever turn that place around is a comitment to true innovation. I don't think it needs a full, immediate* bulldoze. I think what it needs to get things rolling is a single, wholly original attraction, executed in true Disney fashion with style and quality. Restore some faith in the company that one can expect the best.





* However, I would expect/hope that if and when they ever get their act together and start taking the creative risks that made Disney what it is, or used to be, that someone does take a critical look at what's there now and start to bulldoze pieces in the name of progress

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I'm with you folks on the idea of theme and exicution both with DCA lack. Even my 84 year old Grandmother dislikes DCA because of that. Its not Disney. It's like buying Plushes and Mouse Ears at the gas staion around the corner.

If anything needs to be 'Dozed is everything in the back end of the park, from It's Tough to be A bug to Paradise Pier to Golden Dreams. Hollywood backlot has much imporved since Monsters Inc. Condor Fatts is fine and GrizzlyPeak is the best themed area in the park. IMHO.

[Alex]

Moonliner has a point - but the counterpoint will always be TDS. It's hardly "Disney", it's not truly a resort, and it's butted up against TDL, which is clearly the more familiar park - yet it's incredibly popular and a marvel to behold. For me, it's all about the execution...

It is booted up against Tokyo Disneyland like MGM Studios is booted up against Epcot.

The relationship in attendance between Disneyland and DCA is about the same as between Magic Kingom and MGM/AK. The lessers hover around 50% of the greater.

Personally, I like DCA. I don't think it is the greatest thing since sliced milk (mmm....cheese) but it, in my opinion, better than any of the other Los Angeles theme parks (I think SeaWorld is better but it is also fundamentally different).

In my view, Tokyo DisneySeas or Epcot could have been build in DCA's spot and it would still have underperformed in my opinion. I think it is almost entirely a product of the different nature of the attendance at Disneyland than at any of the other Disney theme parks.

I don't think the performance problem of DCA will be fixed by any plan because I don't think it can be fixed. Disney will never have a monopoly on the attention of travelers and most locals don't make multiple day visits, they come a few times a year at most and at that pace people will almost always pick the known (definitely and perpetually) superior quantity over the unknown and therefore stick to Disneyland.

If Disneyland didn't already exist, I'm confident it couldn't be built. It would simply be too expensive and time consuming and it would be declared a failure out of the gate.

Personally, I find what is there to be better than the parking lot that was. I use it to the ability that it interests me and ignore the rest (just as I do with Disneyland, only going into Fantasyland and Toontown to work on MouseAdventure).

If I were to make a fundamental change, it would be Baxter's plan. I'd push the entry gates out to security checks put a giant food complex in the esplanade and make the whole thing one big park with DCA simply another new land for Disneyland.

[Disneyphile]

Honestly, I just wish they would have gone ahead with the ol' Westcot plan.

[Snowflake]

Honestly, I just wish they would have gone ahead with the ol' Westcot plan.

Which was? (Honest, I don't know)

[Strangler Lewis]

Disney will never have a monopoly on the attention of travelers and most locals don't make multiple day visits, they come a few times a year at most and at that pace people will almost always pick the known (definitely and perpetually) superior quantity over the unknown and therefore stick to Disneyland.



Though we never will, we know a lot of people who spend entire three-day weekends at Disneyland or who do nothing else in the LA/Orange County area before heading down to San Diego for the zoo, etc. We're good for about opening to 2:00, so no California Adventure for us. Woody and Buzz vs. Winnie and Piglet? Not even close.

I'm no expert, but it strikes me that all the expansion, California Adventure included, was implemented to con people into thinking they needed to stay at one of the Disney hotels and for at least several days.

[CoasterMatt]

DCA's construction has done wonders for Universal Studios attendance - many people buy into 3+ day vacation packages at the Disneyland Resort, and get "restless" for lack of a better term - heading north for something different.

[Disneyphile]

Which was? (Honest, I don't know)It was EPCOT, redesigned to take up the area where DCA currently resides.

It's best explained in here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WestCOT

It would have been seriously cool, considering some of the concepts were installed at Tokyo DisneySeas.

And Westcot could still work. Soarin' is already there for a part of Future World. The rest of the areas could be re-themed into various continents.

[Ghoulish Delight]

And Westcot could still work. Soarin' is already there for a part of Future World. The rest of the areas could be re-themed into various continents.Which brings up a third concept that was kicked around...Disney Seas in Long Beach. Awesome in theory, but had they attempted it with the Pressler/DCA mindset, it would have been a goat.

[CoasterMatt]

They're just gonna build a giant Mickey arm and wand on the side of CA Screamin' = Instant Disney Magic! :p

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

They're just gonna build a giant Mickey arm and wand on the side of CA Screamin' = Instant Disney Magic! :p

:( I miss the giant blow up Chicken Little...... NOT!

[Disneyphile]

:( I miss the giant blow up Chicken Little...... NOT!I'll never forget the horror of that StayPuft Chicken Man. :eek:

[lashbear]

Every time I read this thread and threads like it, I get sad, and think the same thing I do every time.

....At least you guys HAVE a theme park in your city. :(

Send DCA to Sydney, we'll look after it for you.

[innerSpaceman]

All the talk from the likes of Lassiter to Moonliner about revamped attractions neglects the fact that the park is UGLY.

The Farm area? Anyone's idea of attractive? How 'bout Cannery Row? They didn't even have the wisdom to downsize it into cuteness. Paradise Pier? Pretty? Pretty gross, if you ask me.

Condor Flats? Is that anyone's idea of attractive? How 'bout that beautiful entrance and the gorgeous Sun Plaza?


The only areas of beauty in the park are the small Hollywood street and the Grizzly Mountain areas (incl. Redwood land). Oh, Bugs Land is kinda cute, too.


That's simply not enough pleasant place. Which is why I don't care how many rides they put in. Bulldozer use is the only viable option, because so much of the park has to be completely rethought in concept and re-imagineered in beauty.

[Alex]

I find Hollywood to be the least attractive part of the park.

So apparently tastes differ.

[innerSpaceman]

Oh certainly. And I'd rather like to hear what parts of DCA people find attractive.

Grizzy Peak and its environs are usually cited. The view across to Paradise Pier at night is very popular.


But what else? Let's hear it, swankers. What's ugly, what's not? What has to go, and what can stay for the eventual freebie that I predict Baxter will prevail with (probably after Lassiter's half billion fails to do the trick)?

[€uroMeinke]

I think they just need to retheme the paradise pier in a Carnival of Souls overlay

[Alex]

The only part I find visually bad are Hollywood and Sunshine Plaza.

Everything else I find reasonably pleasing from purely visual perspective. Sunshine Plaza, Condor Flats, and the Bountiful Valley Farm area can all be discarded for being completely pointless.

But if Fantasyland or Adventureland (the walkway areas, there's a worhty ride in Adventureland) were rebuilt in DCA I think most people would find them lame as well. The patina of nostalgia is powerful stuff.

[eighteenth street]

Honestly... I don't think DCA is that bad. No, it's not Disneyland, but to be fair ANYTHING in the space across from Disneyland would be a disappointment. I admit that there were (quite a few) design choices made in the park's construction, but it's nothing that can't be fixed. I don't think "tear it all down" is even partially an option, so the Imagineers have to work with what's there, either by removing small parts (e.g. Midway Madness' location) or overlaying and changing existing parts of the park.

I'm kind of biased because I've been an AP holder since DCA has been open, and as such I use it as a way to get out of DL's crowds during the middle of the day. There are a number of things I really like about DCA. TOT, Soarin', California Screamin', Aladdin, the Ferris Wheel, and Grizzly River Run are all amazing attractions, and with Midway Madness opening eventually that list will most likely be +1. Grizzly River area is beautiful, and I kind of like Paradise Pier as well. Hollywood is well-themed (though small) and so is A Bug's Land. There are definitely theme problems, though, but it's nothing that couldn't be fixed.

A big problem is the lack of dark rides. Monster's Inc. was severely disappointing, and it's still the park's only traditional dark ride. I still haven't been on a few of the rides at Paradise Pier because they're not interesting in the least, and a Bug's Land, while pretty, is almost entirely for little kids. A good start would be a ride like Pirates or the Haunted Mansion, a slow E-ticket with maybe a drop or two, but an emphasis on story. California's history would make a covered wagon cowboy type ride possible, but I'm afraid they've all but given up on the California theme at this point.

Really, I don't know where DCA is headed. I don't believe they'll ever make it "free," but it certainly does need more than an E-ticket every 3 years to get up to speed. A complete re-theme seems, unfortunately, like the best chance the park has, but I feel like cheaper and less effective alternatives will be tried over and over without much result.

Just don't close the tortilla factory.

[Not Afraid]

The ONLY area I find appealing in DCA is the area around Grizzly and the GC. Paradise Pier is cheap and nasty and Hollywood seems really barren and dead. I actually find Bugs Land to be cute if I only visit there once a year.

[Prudence]

I thought hollywood and GRR were the only areas they were really going to keep under the huge re-do proposal? Those are the areas I really like. I LOVE the GRR area. I like the potential in the Hollywood area, but it needs bustle to really work. If they could increase the bustle factor, it would be cool.

[wendybeth]

I've never been to WDW, but it just makes sense to me to turn the area into a Pleasure Island of sorts. (They already allow alcohol in there, so why not?) I'd also get rid of Condor Flats, the whole farming/agri/tortilla area, and either really spruce up and add to Hollywood or dump that as well. If Lasseter wants to make it home for Pixar stuff, then keep that over in the Bugs Land area, which will have lots of room for growth after the removal of the aforementioned Flats and Farms. So, restaraunts, bars and all sorts of illicit activity potential in the Boardwalk area, and nice wholesome Pixarland nearby.

[tracilicious]

I like the GRR area, and the wharf. When they used to have food over there it was quite pleasant to sit next to the water and eat. Bug's Land has terrific theming. Too bad the rides suck (except for Flick's Fliers, which is kinda fun in a Dumbo way) and there's no food there. Hollywood is ugly. The Pier looks ok from far away, but sucks once you are on it. Plus it's too far to walk. DCA seems so spread out, I just don't want to walk all the way across the pier, yet there isn't a way to bypass the middle unless you want to walk all the way around the GRR area. I kinda like Condor Flats.

Also, GRR is a sucky water ride. They could have done a lot more with it.