Hypersensitivity...

[Moonliner]

It's running amok in our society..

The Seattle Airport puts up Christmas trees, and a Rabbi threatens to sue.

Rosie O'Donnell mimics Chinese (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=456&sid=1005990)and it's treated like she spit on Mao's grave.

A high school choir was asked to stop singing (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=456&sid=1005990)Christmas Carols during a performance at a local mall because there was one Jewish person present.

This type of knee jerk hypersensitivity cannot be good for the land of the free and the home of the brave. What's gotten into people?

There is so much real hatred and evil in the world. Why focus on all these innocuous issues? All it's going to do is create a boy who cried wolf mentality in regards to true bigotry and hate. If it keeps up pretty soon no one is going to pay any attention to real issues of hate and racism.

[Ghoulish Delight]

For My Democratic Friends:


"Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. And without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishes. By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher."


For My Republican (and Libertarian) Friends:


Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

[Moonliner]

Wow.

You are one helluva fast typist.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Wow.

You are one helluva fast typist.
ctrl-c, ctrl-v

[Disneyphile]

I'm sick of the oversensitivity these days. I also think that's why we nowhave school shootings, etc., because people are being bred to be overly sensitive, that once they're called a bad name, they can't handle it without gunning everyone down.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm sick of the oversensitivity these days. I also think that's why we nowhave school shootings, etc., because people are being bred to be overly sensitive, that once they're called a bad name, they can't handle it without gunning everyone down.I believe I mentioned a while ago about the game of musical chairs I witnessed at my company picnic where when a child didn't get a chair, they were told they were the "next winner" and sent back to mom and dad with a prize.

CP told this story to coworkers, who thought it was "adorable." :rolleyes: They said kids that young just can't understand losing, and they'll figure it out on their own when they're ready. When CP replied that her parents let her win or lose fairly, they told her, I believe quite literally, that she obviously had horrible parents that didn't care for her.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm offended by this thread.















:D

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I'm offended by this thread.

I'm offended that you are offended!
I demand an appology

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm offended that you are offended!
I demand an appology
I'm sorry that you're offended.











:D

[Moonliner]

I believe I mentioned a while ago about the game of musical chairs I witnessed at my company picnic where when a child didn't get a chair, they were told they were the "next winner" and sent back to mom and dad with a prize.

CP told this story to coworkers, who thought it was "adorable." :rolleyes: They said kids that young just can't understand losing, and they'll figure it out on their own when they're ready. When CP replied that her parents let her win or lose fairly, they told her, I believe quite literally, that she obviously had horrible parents that didn't care for her.


While the Co-workers in question are definitely outliers on the normal curve of parental behavior for their rudeness alone, it is not uncommon for parents of very young children to feel like they must protect their kids from all evil. Typically they get over it by the time the kids hit 9 or 10 but some persist and they really are horrible parents.

In our kids pre-school the big thing was to "build confidence". My point of view, which of course I stated loudly and often, was that building confidence is a buch of hooey. All you are doing is feeding kids fairy tails about how great they are. My point was (and still is) that the goal should be to build capability and out of capability you naturally get confidence.

For this radical viewpoint I was just about universally shunned by the other pre-school parents.

[SacTown Chronic]

I've had my baby girl literally crying on the basketball court. The frustration sets in, she's so desperate to beat me. And when she gets uber-frustrated, I crank it up a notch.


The day she beats me, she will have fvcking earned it.

[sleepyjeff]

I love this thread.

I hope that doesn't offend anyone;)

[Moonliner]

I've had my baby girl literally crying on the basketball court. The frustration sets in, she's so desperate to beat me. And when she gets uber-frustrated, I crank it up a notch.


The day she beats me, she will have fvcking earned it.

I know what you mean.

My Daughter has two coaches.

Coach #1: Hey good try girls! I really like that effort you made. Keep trying. That team went 0 for 8 last season.

Coach #2: What the hell was that play? Where's your head girl? Get in there and get it done . That team is undefeated for the last two seasons.

[Prudence]

And this is why we're considering home schooling, should we ever manage to spawn. I don't understand why it's totally okay for me to have to listen to other people's rap music, view other people's thongs, and endure screeching knee-high hellions careening around every corner, but the sight of a Christmas tree or sound of a carol might cause someone of a different (or no) religion to spontaneously combust.

[Alex]

I hope for the day when religious mysticism and other forms of magical thinking have evolved out of the human race.

But meanwhile, just because I don't have any interest in participating, I don't really care if other people do so. Even on public property, and to a certain extent even with public money.

So long as I'm not forced to participate, to believe, then go have fun. This is a predominately Christian nation and it will behave as one. When some prick decides to get all upset about "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance the courts don't really have any choice but to say "yeah, it doesn't really belong there." But the prick is still a prick for having complained.

Scott Adams had an interesting observation on his blog a couple weeks ago. He hardly ever gets letters of complaint from people who are offended. He gets letters of complaint from people who are offended on behalf of someone else. Then a few days later he gets letters from the theoretically aggrieved party asking for framed prints of the cartoon in question.

We've worked our way to a strange place in our society where the noblest thing you can do is feel on behalf of other people and the next logical step is acting on those feelings (and acting purely on feelings never leads anywhere good). But we haven't yet reached a place where we are very good at feeling correctly what others will feel.

Every time somebody starts talking by saying "I'm not offended, but..." they should be kicked in the hard before the next word can get out.

Start with "I'm offended..." and you get to finish your sentence. Then everybody gets to call you an oversensitive hyperemotional sissy.

[Ghoulish Delight]

People need to learn, the definition of building self esteem is not, "You're so great that you can never lose!" All that does is set them up to feel worthless when they inevitably do lose at something.

[Moonliner]

People need to learn, the definition of building self esteem is not, "You're so great that you can never lose!" All that does is set them up to feel worthless when they inevitably do lose at something.

Better watch yourself mister. Talk like that will get you shunned by the pre-school parent crowd.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Better watch yourself mister. Talk like that will get you shunned by the pre-school parent crowd.
Is that a promise?

[Alex]

I had no idea that "ching chong" in reference to Chinese talking is as bad as saying the n-word (I would have typed out that word but since I'm sending this from work I don't need it setting off any triggers).

I'll have to tell my Chinese co-worker who said it this morning. (Making fun of an argument her mom had with a storeclerk.)

[Ghoulish Delight]

"I think by allowing Rosie O'Donnell's cheap jabs at Chinese Americans to go unchecked, then the network is essentially condoning racial and ethnic slurs," Lincoln Michel told the AP in a phone interview.

I didn't know that many Chinese Americans are employed as news readers in China.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

Chinese Americans.

I wonder in China if they call us American Chinese?

From now on I wish to be refered to as an Un-hypersensative American.:rolleyes:

[Disneyphile]

Another thing that disgusts me - giving a present to a sibling on their brother or sister's birthday!

We had a family friend who did this - she'd always take a present for the sibling(s) also, because "they shouldn't feel left out".

Um, people need to learn as kids that you don't get something for someone else's birthday. It's their chance for the spotlight, not yours. I think this causes some people to have the "it's all about me!" mentality.

[Alex]

I go the other way. To teach them that there is nothing special about the fact that they were born (so were the vast majority of everybody else) I don't give them anything for their birthday.

If they whine, I give their parents a commiseration present instead.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I have to point out (wet blanket that I am) that the Rabbi didn't threaten to sue because there were Christmas trees displayed, he threatened to sue to be allowed to display a menorah. The airport over reacted by taking down the trees because they were afraid they'd have to honor every culture's holiday observances. By the way, the trees are back (http://www.portseattle.org/news/press/2006/12_11_2006_49.shtml). The Rabbi was as dismayed as anyone that the airport took them down.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I have to point out (wet blanket that I am) that the Rabbi didn't threaten to sue because there were Christmas trees displayed, he threatened to sue to be allowed to display a menorah. The airport over reacted by taking down the trees because they were afraid they'd have to honor every culture's holiday observances. By the way, the trees are back (http://www.portseattle.org/news/press/2006/12_11_2006_49.shtml). The Rabbi was as dismayed as anyone that the airport took them down.
I don't blame the airport for taking the trees down. They did what they had to do to mitigate the threat of lawsuit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think the Rabbi was out of line. If I had my druthers, Christmas displays by publicly funded institutions would go away (but, like Alex's pledge example, I don't find it a big enough deal to take action on, just a "since the question was asked" stance). But the solution is NOT to go the other way and start suing to include menorahs in everything. 1989's County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union decision, which stops just short of calling a menorah a secular symbol right along with the Christmas tree, makes me shudder enough. I don't appreciate rabbis going around trying to finish the job.

[blueerica]

I agree with a lot of the sentiments in here. By the same token, remember that kid in the claw machine. Most of my friends said they should have given the boy a toy. I say no. Kids shouldn't get rewarded for behavior that needs to be ceased.

[Gn2Dlnd]

But the solution is NOT to go the other way and start suing to include menorahs in everything.

Point taken. It would just be nice if people who put up decorations in public places had a general sense of respect and acknowlegement for cultures other than their own. I think that's why I like Small World Holiday so much.

Oh, Chappy Chanukkah!

(and a Merry Hristmas, too!)

[Not Afraid]

I think diversity is a bunch of crap and we should all focus on fitting our selves into one clearly defined set of the same accepted behaviours, beliefs and appearances. All of our houses should be one of three colors in one of three styles, we should all wear the same styles and colors of clothing and only celebrate events that we all agree upen (the others should be ignored).

God, what a perfict world it would be. Beige and happy.

[JWBear]

I think diversity is a bunch of crap and we should all focus on fitting our selves into one clearly defined set of the same accepted behaviours, beliefs and appearances. All of our houses should be one of three colors in one of three styles, we should all wear the same styles and colors of clothing and only celebrate events that we all agree upen (the others should be ignored).

God, what a perfict world it would be. Beige and happy.
I think you got the beige part right...

[Not Afraid]

But, we need to keep Thai Food. Thai Food can be throwwn in just to proove that we still like diversity. See! We still have Thai Food!

[€uroMeinke]

Beige is Beautiful

[CoasterMatt]

I don't understand why it's totally okay for me to have to listen to other people's rap music, view other people's thongs, and endure screeching knee-high hellions careening around every corner, but the sight of a Christmas tree or sound of a carol might cause someone of a different (or no) religion to spontaneously combust.

Oh what fun it would be if it was that easy to make somebody spontaneously combust (not to mention how helpful to society as a whole)

[mousepod]

Well, tonight is the first night of Chanukah, so in the spirit of sharing and respecting others' traditions, I plan to light one Christmas tree tonight. I wonder what time the neighbors get home...

[SacTown Chronic]

Yes, let's all light tree in the spirit of brotherhood.

[BarTopDancer]

I think diversity is a bunch of crap and we should all focus on fitting our selves into one clearly defined set of the same accepted behaviours, beliefs and appearances. All of our houses should be one of three colors in one of three styles, we should all wear the same styles and colors of clothing and only celebrate events that we all agree upen (the others should be ignored).

God, what a perfict world it would be. Beige and happy.

Um. That's called South County :p


someone save me. please.

[Alex]

Out of curiosity (I really have no idea what the answer is), in Israel where Jews get to enjoy the dominant cultural power, what do they do in the way of public displays for Hannukah?

Do they do anything or is it only an issue here because someone feels left out?

[JWBear]

Um. That's called South County :p


someone save me. please.
Hee! :snap:

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Out of curiosity (I really have no idea what the answer is), in Israel where Jews get to enjoy the dominant cultural power, what do they do in the way of public displays for Hannukah?

Do they do anything or is it only an issue here because someone feels left out?I would assume they do not do much. Hanukkah is a minor holiday only made large in America to compete with Christmas. It is not biblical - the events take place when the Romans were the dominant world power. It's Roman-controlled Syria that takes over Israel and eventually gets their asses handed to them by the Jews.

If they do have public displays/parties/TV specials then they would have to have at least 5 other such times of the year.

I'll ask my brother.

[Strangler Lewis]

I spent part of my afternoon lending de facto backup to the first and third grade Brownie troops who went caroling at the bin. During rehearsal at school, as the kids faded on Silent Night I implored them to speak up so that the Jewish guy wasn't the only voice heard on this gas.

Frankly, to get through Silent Night in a quasi-public forum, I do have to tell myself that I'm an actor playing a part. On the other hand, it is a beautiful song as many of the spiritual carols are. If I had to shyt can a song from the kids' repertoire, it would definitely be Holly Jolly Christmas. It's just bouncy piffle that's unsingable, especially for kids.

We then went back to school for a party and a laborious Secret Santa exchange. This would have been less torturous if I did not have to get home to start grating potatoes. Nobody seemed to know that it was the first night of Chanukah. I'm not especially put out by that, but I have gotten more than my share of "Oh, I have a friend who's Jewish" comments lately.

[Strangler Lewis]

I would assume they do not do much. Hanukkah is a minor holiday only made large in America to compete with Christmas. It is not biblical . . . .

Unless you're Catholic.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I spent part of my afternoon lending de facto backup to the first and third grade Brownie troops who went caroling at the bin.
The Girl Scouts are technically a Christian organization (though they let all faiths in) so I'm not surprised they went with Silent Night.

When I was a kid we sang all the Jesus songs in a Winter chorus thingy. My parents weren't happy about it but they didn't throw a fit. They explained to me our deal regarding Jesus and allowed me to continue singing, thank goodness. I didn't want to be the odd kid out, and I loved chorus.

The majority celebrates Christmas and there's no way anyone can deny that. If I decided to have a problem with it I'd be a very unhappy person. I do get frustrated by some aspects (mostly the Xmasization of Hanukkah) but I have learned to let it go. I do want to be included in parties and hand out my own gifts at the end of the year to remind others that I'm thinking of them. I understand fully that I'm manipulating labels of things in order to suit my own purposes, and that in the end I AM Xmas shopping. I live here, and I choose to participate in the fun aspects that have nothing to do with Jesus.

That said - I will never again participate in Secret Santas, no matter what. I always got supposedly secular things like angels and stars and green and red junk, the sad sack who picked me has a hell of a time shopping, and I sincerely don't want to buy actual Xmas junk for someone else, so it's in everyone's best interest if I just back the fvck out.

I say Merry Christmas to everyone that comes in to the library.

And that concludes my entire stance on being Jewish in December :D

[Strangler Lewis]

In our kids pre-school the big thing was to "build confidence". My point of view, which of course I stated loudly and often, was that building confidence is a buch of hooey. All you are doing is feeding kids fairy tails about how great they are. My point was (and still is) that the goal should be to build capability and out of capability you naturally get confidence.


Within the given limitations. Nothing is gained by setting unreasonable goals and making little kids feel like failures.

I coached my daughter's soccer team of five and six year-olds this fall, and we had one boy who just was not ready to listen or comfortable with competing physically with kids he did not know. His parents should have pulled the plug on that early on, but they paid their money and there wasn't much I could say or do. (Soccer does not have a right field.)

Not that it's relevant to this topic, but I did have one dad pull his kid on advice of counsel because his ex and his girlfriend would curse each other out and threaten to kick each other's ass while the kid was on the field.

[Strangler Lewis]

The Girl Scouts are technically a Christian organization (though they let all faiths in) so I'm not surprised they went with Silent Night.

I don't think the Girl Scouts at the core are as Christian, hard-assed and God-centered as the Boy Scouts are. From what I know about the Boy Scouts, there's also a hard-assed Jew scout program. Indeed, my brief tenure in Cub Scouts was through my temple.

God in the Girl Scout promise has an asterisk. One of my friends spent a summer during college doing odd jobs at a Girl Scout camp. I don't know if he thought he'd be starring in his own porn flick, but he came back reporting that the counselors were mostly man-hating lesbians.

But it doesn't matter what the Girl Scouts believe or believed at their founding. If these women led the girls' knitting club and took them caroling, they would have included Silent Night (and Holly Jolly Christmas). It is just, as you say, an oblivious majority thing.

[€uroMeinke]

The Girl Scouts are technically a Christian organization

Interesting - as a cub scout I was in a Jewish troop. We met weekly at Temple Beth Shalom on Tustin Avenue. With the friends I made there I learned about Passover, Hanukkah, and Purim, honoring and celebrating with them. I thought it was cool. Certainly much more fun than the Sunday School my sister dropped me off at - though I did meet Lizzibith's bother there for the very first time. He was similarly dumped there and we bonded poking holes in the coloring Jesus - talk about hypersensitive. At least my sister never did anything like that again.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'll ask my brother.Yeah, Chanukah doesn’t warrant any real attention in Israel with the small exception here and there. In a building that shares a back wall with the western wall they have a torch like menorah that marks each day. In more Americanized parts of Jerusalem there are a few menorahs here and there. The other holidays are different than America. It seemed to me that in business fronts that had ways of showing and honoring the season were more for the owners benefit than those coming in to shop. Here, people need trees and decorations in local malls to feel "Christmassy". So the retailers know to put up decorations to draw crowds. In Israel there are sukkot* in the back of the store and what have you because the owner uses it on lunch breaks and will welcome other merchants. Rosh Ha Shanna does have nice sayings in the window that bless the crowds with a good year and a wish to be written in the book and what have you. Anyway thats my take.....*Sukkot are huts built on a holiday also called Sukkot that represent the harvest in Israel. Every family is encouraged to build one and eat all their meals in it for a week. My family does this - we invite friends over, it's a good time.

[3894]

It's running amok in our society..

The Seattle Airport puts up Christmas trees, and a Rabbi threatens to sue.



It's getting a little tired, no?

And no to public expenditures for religious promotion. Yes to both sides of the issue shutting the hell up and just fading away.

[tracilicious]

Within the given limitations. Nothing is gained by setting unreasonable goals and making little kids feel like failures.


I agree, but I'm not sure that that is what Moonliner was saying. I'm anti good jobbing, as well, but because it is just another way thing that grown ups to do get kids to do what they want. I'd much rather a have a preschool that teaches kids, and helps them to find their internal motivation, rather than turning them into praise junkies whose sense of self hangs on stickers and verbal doggie biscuits. Neither punishment nor rewarding is appropriate in a such a setting. It's funny that so many don't realize that teaching can happen absent of those two control techniques.

I'm amused that in threads like these, where so many are so quick to bash parents that annoy them, I find myself disagreeing with both the poster and the person they disagree with. It doesn't need to be either give in to kids and spoil them or teach them the hard ways of the cruel world. There is a whole other train of thought that can be followed should one simply jump on.

[Strangler Lewis]

Be careful what you say. Mrs. Grossman's Sticker Factory is one of Petaluma's leading industries now that the Jewish chicken ranchers have died out.

I am curious what kind of preschool Moonliner is hooked up with and when he has these conversations. I've never had more than a "How's it going" with other parents at pick up/drop off. I drop my kid off, he goes to the mat to listen to a story and he comes back with an arm full of paintings, news of what Billy Bird had to say today and who he pushed or yelled at because they pushed him.

[Alex]

Neither punishment nor rewarding is appropriate in a such a setting.


I once asked why I didn't get a cash reward from my mom for good grades (which I didn't get often since then, like now, I think homework is generally a stupid waste of time designed to make teachers feel like their accomplishing sometihng) like many of my friends did. Her answer was "why would I pay you for what you're supposed to do anyway? Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."

[Moonliner]

I agree, but I'm not sure that that is what Moonliner was saying.....

What Moonliner is saying is that he does not believe in puffing kids up. If they play well then they get lots of positive feedback. If they screw up they get told, hey! you screwed up.

Please note that "play well" is not synonymous with "win" in this context. They can get crushed on the field and still have played their best, alternatively in some cases they can slack off, play poorly and still win. I praise or criticize performance and attitude not the score.

[Moonliner]

Be careful what you say. Mrs. Grossman's Sticker Factory is one of Petaluma's leading industries now that the Jewish chicken ranchers have died out.

I am curious what kind of preschool Moonliner is hooked up with...

There were monthly teas held at the school. The principal would attend and give a short talk on some aspect of the school curriculum followed by an open discussion with the parents. At the time I had a very flexible schedule (it's good to be the boss) so I was one of the few dad's that attended the morning meetings.

[tracilicious]

...Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."


Except that the entire grading system is ridiculous and not really an indication of what's been learned anyways. (But yeah, money for grades sort of undermines a natural desire to learn, I think. So do grades.)

Moonliner, that is exactly my point. The mentallity is that either kids are praised for nothing or they are praised only for specific things. What if we take praise out of the equation? What if we simply guide kids and allow their natural desire to learn and succeed take over, helping them when they need us (and no I don't consider praise and criticism help), backing off when they don't? What if we replace, "Good job studying for that test!" with, "What did you find most challenging? Are you happy with your results?" Our judgements need not enter into the conversation.

[Moonliner]

I once asked why I didn't get a cash reward from my mom for good grades (which I didn't get often since then, like now, I think homework is generally a stupid waste of time designed to make teachers feel like their accomplishing sometihng) like many of my friends did. Her answer was "why would I pay you for what you're supposed to do anyway? Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."

While we don't have a fixed pay scale, we do reward good grades. We tend to treat school like a job. It is their job to go to school just like mom and dad go off to work. Sometimes the job requires you to work late or miss some fun event, sometimes not. If you do a good job you get "paid". For the kids that's the everyday extras in life. Cable TV, Computers, PS2's etc... If you don't do your job you lose those extras (a pay cut). If you do extra work (overtime) you get a bonus. Perhaps a nice lobster dinner, or a new Ferrari.

[Moonliner]

Except that the entire grading system is ridiculous and not really an indication of what's been learned anyways. (But yeah, money for grades sort of undermines a natural desire to learn, I think. So do grades.)

Moonliner, that is exactly my point. The mentallity is that either kids are praised for nothing or they are praised only for specific things. What if we take praise out of the equation? What if we simply guide kids and allow their natural desire to learn and succeed take over, helping them when they need us (and no I don't consider praise and criticism help), backing off when they don't? What if we replace, "Good job studying for that test!" with, "What did you find most challenging? Are you happy with your results?" Our judgements need not enter into the conversation.

Except that young kids (pre-teen and younger) crave the praise. Withholding that in favor of responses like "What did you find most challenging" equates in their mind to rejection. I still argue praise for effort. At age two a scribbled crayon mess is cause for praise, age four not so much.

[Nephythys]

What if they do not have a natual desire to learn and succeed?

There is not one formula for every kids- no "one size fits all" course of action.

[Stan4dSteph]

I thought this was about the war on Christmas.

[Moonliner]

I thought this was about the war on Christmas.

No, at least not for me. This was never about Christmas exactly. It was about people overreacting to other people. I think Alex summed it up nicely, it's about people getting offended on behalf of other people. The examples I gave were taken from current headlines and given the time of year 2/3 happened to have a holiday bent.

Of course thread have a life of their own so they go where they will, but I can state that the original post was not about "The war on Christmas"

[Ghoulish Delight]

I was paid for grades. But, as mentioned before, it wasn't "get good grades for a reward", it was more like a salary. "You want money? Earn it." Same went for allowance. I didn't just get an allowance, I got an allowance if I mowed the lawn and took out the trash.

And praising kids is about more than just encouraging good behavior through praise. It's about instilling a sense of empathy, letting them know that other people actually care about their success. Like Moonliner, I'm not advocating a, "You lost, what a loser!" attitude. It's about effort. I'm just against the "You're a winner no matter what!" mantra.

Challenging them, asking the questions that make them think about what they've learned is also important, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. There was plenty of both in my house.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

All I know about grades is - my parents didn't pay attention to my schooling, didn't push me when I slacked off, and didn't notice when I didn't give them report cards. I plan on doing the opposite with my kids. I hope GD has some good ideas on methodology.

[SacTown Chronic]

Speaking of hypersensitivity (http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/93477.html)...


Issue:

Recently, my newspaper staff at Oak Ridge High in El Dorado Hills published a humorous article underscoring how teens view MySpace, Chipotle and the cinema. For teenagers, frequenting these places is like a ritual, the staff wrote. The headline for the article, which included logos for these three popular places: "The Holy Trinity."

One parent's response:

One parent fired off a letter to the principal.

"How dare the staff supervisor, allow what is such poor taste ... I am so in pain over this, and can't imagine our Lord's tears ...

"We certainly were impressed with Oak Ridge's academic portfolio, but assmed with such a conservative network of families, we would not be subject to religious persecution ... I would pray that an apology be submitted to all Catholics and Christians ... "Lord's tears? Religious persecution?

[Ghoulish Delight]

The cinema?

[3894]

Lord's tears?

I am totally in love with that phrase. :cool:

Me to my neighbor when I find yet another of his golf balls in my woods: "I am so in pain over this, and can't imagine our Lord's tears ..."

[tracilicious]

Except that young kids (pre-teen and younger) crave the praise. Withholding that in favor of responses like "What did you find most challenging" equates in their mind to rejection. I still argue praise for effort. At age two a scribbled crayon mess is cause for praise, age four not so much.

No, kids crave their parents acceptance. When that acceptance has been translated into pleasure or disapproval over individual actions, then that is when kids begin to crave the praise.

What if they do not have a natual desire to learn and succeed?


Everyone is born with a natural desire to learn and succeed. It is often driven out of them by the conditional acceptance of those around them. With support and unconditional love, I believe every child will do their best in everything they want to do.

I'm just against the "You're a winner no matter what!" mantra.


Why does it have to be about winning or losing? My question is not, should one person win musical chairs or should everyone, my question is why musical chairs? Wouldn't it be a more fun game, if instead of everyone trying to snatch a chair and one person being sent away, all the kids try to fit into the remaining chairs? Then in the end you have a whole group of giggling kids and not five sad kids and one happy kid (or five kids that know they got a booby prize and one kid that resents not being the real winner).

The lesson between the two games is different as well. In the fun version kids work as a team to solve a problem and reach a goal. In the standard version kids focus on defeating their opponent. I stipulate that the former is a more valuable skill to learn. I don't know anyone that needs to defeat people on a regular basis. Almost everyone I know has to work with others to reach common goals. Why are we drilling competition and the need to "win" into kids at such a young age? What's the point of that? I don't see it as anything but destructive.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I consider competition as valuable because I consider losing a valuable lesson to learn. Not everything in this world can be cooperative. There are points in everyone's life, no matter how hard you try, where someone will "win" and someone will "lose". By starting the lessons early, with trivial things like musical chairs, that losing an individual competition is NOT important, then they are prepared for the inevitable situations in life when someone else is rewarded and they are not.

[Ghoulish Delight]

One further thought. I played competitive sports growing up. Not at a particularly high level, but I was always involved. Mostly soccer, and I played basketball and baseball for a few seasons. I wasn't very good at any of them, but I was motivated and always had fun.

My parents didn't laud me extravagantly when I won. They didn't chastise me when I lost. Most importantly, they didn't prevent me from doing either. I went out there, and I played a game. They'd ask if I had fun, they congratulate me if I won or if I scored a goal, they'd ask if I learned something and what I might do differently given the opportunity. And in the end, I learned that losing is not a big deal. It's part of the experience. It's what makes winning so great. And I'm better for it. It allows me to try things without fearing loss, because I've been there and know that life goes on.

[Stan4dSteph]

Of course thread have a life of their own so they go where they will, but I can state that the original post was not about "The war on Christmas"Perhaps I have been watching too much Colbert Report.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Perhaps I have been watching too much Colbert Report.
Or maybe Moonliner's just a little hypersensitive about the term "War on Christmas".

[Strangler Lewis]

When I coached soccer or just taught stuff to my kids, my message was that you're going to have more fun trying to do something the right way than just screwing around. It's more fun running around and trying to kick the ball than standing around and letting your teammates take a beating. It's more fun trying to do the puzzle than throwing the pieces across the room. Etc.

I think you can have both versions of musical chairs (though I'm a Duck, Duck, Goose man myself). The "competitive" version is valuable because little kids--and a lot of big kids--lack a well developed sense that there is such a thing as the future, that you get to try again. These disappointments, whether it's losing at a game or letting the ice cream truck pass by, are good ways to instill the lesson that you can't have it your way all the time and that tomorrow is another day.

[Nephythys]

Everyone is born with a natural desire to learn and succeed. It is often driven out of them by the conditional acceptance of those around them. With support and unconditional love, I believe every child will do their best in everything they want to do.



I see- well, I disagree and take some exception to your generality- but it's not worth getting any further into it.

[Moonliner]

I see- well, I disagree and take some exception to your generality- but it's not worth getting any further into it.


Ohh, nice use of the passive aggressive debate technique!

I get to make my point but you don't get a chance to respond because I have already deemed it not worth getting any further into.

Well done :snap:

[Nephythys]

Ohh, nice use of the passive aggressive debate technique!

I get to make my point but you don't get a chance to respond because I have already deemed it not worth getting any further into.

Well done :snap:

*sigh*

If I had chosen to respond as I initially wanted to I would have been upset and emotional- so I stepped back- and I still get grief.

I support and love my son deeply- I encourage him all the time- he hates school. He has NO desire to succeed and learn. I struggle constantly and the idea that a kid will simply bloom into that kind of self motivated person with the right amount of love and support is insulting to me. As if somehow I am just not supporting and loving him unconditionally enough- so instead of getting into that mess I simply said I disagree and take exception to some of her theories.

The hassle is not worth the effort.

On edit- I know her comment was not a personal barb directed at me- hence my decision to refrain from reacting to it. That is not passive agressive- it was being prudent in my response.

[Alex]

Everyone is born with a natural desire to learn and succeed. It is often driven out of them by the conditional acceptance of those around them. With support and unconditional love, I believe every child will do their best in everything they want to do.

I disagree pretty strongly with this.

Why does it have to be about winning or losing? My question is not, should one person win musical chairs or should everyone, my question is why musical chairs? Wouldn't it be a more fun game, if instead of everyone trying to snatch a chair and one person being sent away, all the kids try to fit into the remaining chairs?

No, I don't think that would be a more fun game. Not that musical chairs is all that fun. But why does it have to be one or the other?

Why are we drilling competition and the need to "win" into kids at such a young age? What's the point of that? I don't see it as anything but destructive.

I'd say it is because competition is a biological imperitive of our species and we might as well teach people to do it well, to do it with dignity, to do with within certain confines of "honor" or "good sportsmanship." To handle it appropriately when you don't win, and more importantly when you do. How not to let disappointment put you into a spiral of despair, how to persevere despite it.

I spend almost every single day being paid to "defeat" other people. I do it by working cooperatively with many people. They are complimentary, not contradictory skills.

[Not Afraid]

I'm glad I don't have kids.


I dislike greatly people who are competitive only for the sake of winning. There's just so much more to appreciate in life other than "winning". Winning has always seems so empty and unfulfilling on an event for me 90% or the time. Playing, however, is usually VERY satisfying.

[tracilicious]

I support and love my son deeply- I encourage him all the time- he hates school. He has NO desire to succeed and learn.


I'm glad that you realize that I wasn't trying to insult you. Hating school, and having no desire to succeed and learn are two very different things. School is a destructive environment for many kids. There is no such thing as an ideal situation, or a perfect way to parent, so perhaps we should leave this particular area of discussion.

As for the rest of the competition comments, I'm not against competition. I do find it unnecessary for small kids. If a kid is of an age where they can understand winning and losing and choose to participate in a sport then I think that is great. Sports are lots of fun. I'm not sure why a four year old should be pushed to compete though. It seems odd that competition plays such a small part of adult life (personal competition, not business competition) yet we try and put our kids in front of it constantly.

Life throws so many disappointments at us constantly. I find it pointless to set kids up for those sorts of things. They happen naturally. You may as well say, "Kids at school are going to make fun of your big nose anyways. I'm going to start making fun of it myself now so that it isn't a big deal when the other kids do it."

There WILL be times when the ice cream truck passes by before you can get your money out, or when another kid has something that they don't, it just happens. Kids don't have to be taught how to handle disappointment by us setting it up for them. They'll have more than enough opportunities by just growing up.

I probably should have learned by now not to get involved in discussions on kids with people whose thoughts are so entrenched in mainstream thinking. (I don't mean that as an insult, but none of you seem to be willing to think outside the box.) In my particular circle of parenting friends, none of us punish or reward or engage our kids in competition (they're all only three or four) and they are all excellent kids that are faced with disappointment and handle it pretty gracefully.

I've known many teens and adults who are sore losers yet they've been competing all their lives.

[Ghoulish Delight]

(I don't mean that as an insult, but none of you seem to be willing to think outside the box.) The way I think is shaped in majority by the way I was raised. And seeing as I grew up never having been shielded from competition and possess what I consider to be a healthy attitude toward competition, winning, and losing, I am forced to conclude that exposure to competition isn't what produces sore losers and arrogant winners. Rather, it's attitude toward competition that shapes it. Therefore, I simply can't agree with you that pointedly avoiding competition is a necessary component in raising an adjusted child. I'm not arguing that it's detremental to do so, but based on my experience, I see no compelling reason to take that step.

As I've said in other dicussions, I don't put much stock in whether something is mainstream or not mainstream. If you consider my conclusions "not outside the box", I couldn't care less. I strive to come to my conclusions independent of the box. Sometimes they fall within it, sometimes they don't. Oh well.

[tracilicious]

Yeah, I grew up with competition as well. I enjoy board games and various other forms of competition, but I still remember how much musical chairs sucked. The competition of our youths and the competition of today seems completely different, though. Parents push their kids to be the best from an insanely young age. I just don't get it. I won't shield my kids from competition, but I see no reason to push them into it either.

I disagree pretty much completely with everything my parents did. I'm ok in spite of being raised by them, not because of it. I see this as a benefit in some ways, as it's a fresh start on thinking about ways I want to raise my kids. In general, I think you can make loads of mistakes and still have productive adults. I still have ideals though. There is an entire body of research to back up that competition has the opposite effect of what we desire in kids. I'll see if it's available online when I have more time tonight.

[Not Afraid]

I was always placed in competitive situations as a child. It seems EVERYTHING I was involved with in some way was competitive - dance competitions, piano competitions, beauty pagents, casting calls, etc. I think one of the reasons I had such low self esteme when I was in my late teens up until about my early 30's was due to the "banging my head against the wall" competitions I was thrust into. It all seemed a losing battle for me and all it taught me was to hate the activity I was involved in.

I'm sure this is not the case of all children, but it sure did a hoot of damage to me as a child and took many years to un-do. I think it would've been different if I learned to love te activity first and the competitive part was secondary. It is something I had to learn for myself much later in life. I'm just glad I was able to learn it.

[Strangler Lewis]

In my particular circle of parenting friends, none of us punish or reward or engage our kids in competition (they're all only three or four) and they are all excellent kids that are faced with disappointment and handle it pretty gracefully.



Let's get down to cases here. Are we talking JW? Waldorf? Single mothers in housing projects? I assume not the latter, though when I did live among the projects during law school, I saw a lot of well-adjusted looking little kids of whom little was expected and who seemed to be handling their lot well. Then they grew up.

If Waldorf, the Waldorf parents I know obsess, worry and fetishize their child's development more than any other parents I've met.

I can't really say whether I agree with you without a sense of what kind of disappointments you expect your kids to be able to endure. Knowing a little something of your background, I am suspecting that they are fairly minimal. The sense I get from your post is not that the kids are learning to handle disappointment well; it's that they are learning that there is not much in this worldy world worth aspiring to or being excited about. (In the Enneagram, that's a type 5--the unenlightened Buddha. It's what I test as.)

I will agree that competition and performances for three and four year-olds are to be avoided. They don't get it, and it's an f*****' bore for the adults. A photo op to be sure, but not worth the weekly shlep.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Parents push their kids to be the best from an insanely young age. I just don't get it. But that's what I'm talking about. It's not the competition, it's the parental attitude. And that's where this all started. Yes, I agree that pushing competition, and specifically pushing a "win, win, win!" attitude is bad. But I just don't believe that the remedy to that is to remove competition, or redefine competition to "everyone's a winner". I believe the remedy is to encourage personal accomplishment within the framwork of competition with winning and losing being merely part of a set of factors to guage progress and success. I don't suppose our ideal are as far apart as this discussion is making it seem. I don't plan on signing my proginy up for AYSO as soon as they squirt out. I just don't feel a need to put as much stock in actively avoiding competition as you appear to.

And for the record, I hated musical chairs growing up. It's a stupid game. But I think that's mostly because no one seemed to ever be able to agree on a decent set of rules (oh yeah, learning how rules can make order out of chaos, another good lesson to be learned from competition).

[tracilicious]

Let's get down to cases here. Are we talking JW? Waldorf? Single mothers in housing projects?

If Waldorf, the Waldorf parents I know obsess, worry and fetishize their child's development more than any other parents I've met.

Lol. None of the above. I'd rather put my kids in soccer when they are six months old than hang out with JW parents, and I have a whole other set of issues with Waldorf philosophy (that probably only you and I would be interested in discussing, so I'll shut up about it).

I guess if I have to categorize my parenting friends the best I can do is this: Most of us have read a book called Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, that stresses working with kids rather than doing to kids, and we practice it to the best of our ability. We are all committed to gentle discipline (which means teaching, not punishing) and in general we avoid praising (which probably sounds more hands off than it is - we'll say, "you did it!" rather than, "good job!"). Some of us will homeschool/unschool. I doubt any of our kids has ever had a pop tart. I guess you can just call it crunchy. Though I'm not sure how that is relevant to this discussion.

I can't really say whether I agree with you without a sense of what kind of disappointments you expect your kids to be able to endure. Knowing a little something of your background, I am suspecting that they are fairly minimal. The sense I get from your post is not that the kids are learning to handle disappointment well; it's that they are learning that there is not much in this worldy world worth aspiring to or being excited about. (In the Enneagram, that's a type 5--the unenlightened Buddha. It's what I test as.)


I'm not sure how you would get that sense from my post. I expect my kids to be able to handle any disappointment that comes their way. Some will be small some will be large, but I also expect them to succeed in just about everything they do.

I find it ridiculous that you think they wouldn't get excited about anything. That's the whole point of this whole parenting system is so that kids retain their zeal for learning and their excitement about life. My three year old can tell you things about dinosaurs that I didn't even know. He drew the insides of his intestines yesterday. His penchant for geeking out about things is almost scary. I imagine that one day he will like something enough to want to compete. I just don't see the point of stinking musical chairs and setting kids up for disappointment. I'd rather give them the tools they need for success.

But that's what I'm talking about. It's not the competition, it's the parental attitude. And that's where this all started. Yes, I agree that pushing competition, and specifically pushing a "win, win, win!" attitude is bad. But I just don't believe that the remedy to that is to remove competition, or redefine competition to "everyone's a winner". I believe the remedy is to encourage personal accomplishment within the framwork of competition with winning and losing being merely part of a set of factors to guage progress and success. I don't suppose our ideal are as far apart as this discussion is making it seem. I don't plan on signing my proginy up for AYSO as soon as they squirt out. I just don't feel a need to put as much stock in actively avoiding competition as you appear to.


If a game is going on that he wants to participate in, then he's more than welcome to. I just don't see the point of setting them up for competition so early. But yes, having everyone win a game that clearly isn't designed for that is dumb. I think that kids are smart enough to know that. There are plenty of games where there is no need for everyone to be a winner or a loser. They are just games you play for fun.

[wendybeth]

I have a good friend who was raising her three kids in much the manner and philosophy that Traci is. It hasn't worked out as well as she thought. I'm not saying it won't for Traci- truth be told, it's very early in the game for her and her family. There are, as with any sort of parenting philosophy, so many variables that could upset the apple cart. I don't even pretend to have a plan, other than teaching my kid to treat people as she'd like to be treated, realise that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and just because one is better at something does not mean that they are superior beings. We engage in mild forms of competition, such as video or board games, but don't really play any sports except dance, which is not at all competitive at this point.

I despise overenthused sports parents but if they want to mess up their own kids so be it. I also don't think completely nixing competition is a good idea- just how the hell are the kids going to function in the real world? It's naive to expect the entire human race to just stop doing something so basic to our nature. Learning to temper it is fine, but isn't that what most people do as they grow? Anyway, I think all this non-competition stuff with kids older than pre-school age is asinine.

[Strangler Lewis]

My kids have never had a pop tart either. The only Barbie things that my daughter has received have come from others. Her favorite toy is her Anne Frank playhouse.* Watch Anne put her finger to her lips and go "Ssh."

More later. Back to work.



*Bergen Belsen and typhus sold separately.

[tracilicious]

I have a good friend who was raising her three kids in much the manner and philosophy that Traci is. It hasn't worked out as well as she thought. I'm not saying it won't for Traci- truth be told, it's very early in the game for her and her family. There are, as with any sort of parenting philosophy, so many variables that could upset the apple cart. I don't even pretend to have a plan, other than teaching my kid to treat people as she'd like to be treated, realise that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and just because one is better at something does not mean that they are superior beings. We engage in mild forms of competition, such as video or board games, but don't really play any sports except dance, which is not at all competitive at this point.


I could say the same about so many mainstream parents. I think the variables thing is the key. I really don't want to come off as sounding like I think I know everything about parenting. All I know is that as often as humanly possible I will work with my kids instead of doing something to them, and instead of punishing and rewarding I will teach. I'm not sure how that can go wrong.

[wendybeth]

You're raising your kids to the best of your ability and in a manner that you have reasoned will produce positive results, Traci. I personally think it's great, but no matter what we all do our kids will still think we sucked as parents and vow to do better when they raise theirs.

Then we, as grandparents, get to sit back, relax and just have fun with the little ones- let the parents worry about all that formative stuff.:D

[Alex]

My view is that over the millennia many, many different methods of child rearing have been tried and they all seem to result in roughly the same distribution of adult personalities.

How you choose do it, so long as it isn't extremely abusive/manipulative, doesn't really seem to make much difference. So do it how you want.

What I care about is when one person decides that a "method" should be enforced on all the others. And this happens in schools a lot where kids are forced to come together. It is an understandable impulse but I don't like it any more.

But then, I am still caught up on the extremely foreign concept of people acquiring kids intentionally. What form of mental illness is that?

[BarTopDancer]

Then we, as grandparents, get to sit back, relax and just have fun with the little ones- let the parents worry about all that formative stuff.:D

Is there an announcement you'd like to share with the class?

[wendybeth]

God, no. Just maybe someday...in the very distant future.