Commodification of sex

[tracilicious]

I wanted to talk about this some more, but I would prefer to do it in a thread that doesn't involve my offspring.

Is the commodification of sex really that bad a thing? What about the people that can't get sex? Is prostitution really that bad a thing if it's regulated and all parties consent? It's going to happen anyways.

How about commercially? Is the fact that sex sells not due largely in part to the fact that humans are sexual beings and that's what we like seeing? When does it become a degradation of women? Can each woman choose whether or not it degrades her? I know that no add or strip club can make me feel degraded.

Thoughts?

[3894]

I know that no add or strip club can make me feel degraded.

Right but in what way is a strip club a reflection of female sexuality, meaning response to visual stimulation and depersonalization of sex? (Please don't tell anyone I just wrote that sentence. It's terrible but you get what I mean. Men respond much more directly to visual stimulation and so on.)

I'm okay with the commodification of sex for adults. But I'm not going to deform my female sexuality to conform to what men tell me is sexy.

[€uroMeinke]

Today we visited the Norton Simon Museum of Art. Among their collection is a stone temple carving of a couple (man and woman) in a pre-coital position. (Perhaps someone who took some pics of this one can post them here). I mention this as another model, where sex is part of a religious or spiritual experience - whether or not that existed in place of commodification, I don't know, but it is another point of reference.

I suppose one element of living in a capitalist society is that ultimately everything gets assigned a dollar value, that crassness one the one hand offends us and so we object to it's use for certain things, like sex or happiness. Nonetheless, it may well be this sublimation that makes it so effective as a marketing tool.

I'm curious to see where this discussion will lead. To answer directly for myself, a tend to be a moral relativist so I see no inherent right or wrong in the situation you describe, but I think it telling none-the-less of our own values and insecurities.

[€uroMeinke]

Right but in what way is a strip club a reflection of female sexuality, meaning response to visual stimulation and depersonalization of sex? (Please don't tell anyone I just wrote that sentence. It's terrible but you get what I mean. Men respond much more directly to visual stimulation and so on.)

Just a clarification as this is a generalization, I'm not so sure here is some universal "female sexuality." And while men may be more visual, it seems that at least some women enjoy being viewed and desired sexually. But I'm a guy and maybe I read too many letters to Penthouse growing up.

Any strippers (current or ex) that post here?

[bewitched]

Today we visited the Norton Simon Museum of Art. Among their collection is a stone temple carving of a couple (man and woman) in a pre-coital position.


Is this (http://www.nortonsimon.org/collections/browse_culture.asp?culture=Indian&page=1&resultnum=12) the one?

[3894]

I suppose one element of living in a capitalist society is that ultimately everything gets assigned a dollar value

Well said. :snap:

[innerSpaceman]

Is this (http://www.nortonsimon.org/collections/browse_culture.asp?culture=Indian&page=1&resultnum=12) the one?
Yep, that's it.

... but in what way is a strip club a reflection of female sexuality, meaning response to visual stimulation and depersonalization of sex?
I don't see what that has to do with it. To be "sexy," one has to appeal sexually to the object of one's desire/purpose. If that object is men, then you appeal to, among other things, their strong visual sense of sex.

To appeal to men is very much a natural part of (hetero) women's sexuality. And the use of sex appeal for money, favors, survival, revenge, and a host of other goals is hardly unnatural to the female species either, imo.



.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Yep, that's it.


I don't see what that has to do with it. To be "sexy," one has to appeal sexually to the object of one's desire/purpose. If that object is men, then you appeal to, among other things, their strong visual sense of sex.

To appeal to men is very much a natural part of (hetero) women's sexuality. And the use of sex appeal for money, favors, survival, revenge, and a host of other goals is hardly unnatural to the female species either, imo.



.What he said!

I have a friend who's an erotic model. Just to be clear - she gets naked, gets in outfits, gets tied up, often tortured to some degree, and photos are taken. No sex on camera, but still, obviously these pics are for men to get off on. She loves what she does. She's bookish, intelligent, funny, and completely down to earth about her job. Her husband is a set builder and they work together. She's also finishing up business school and has had plenty of "normal" jobs.

I have no problem with her occupation. There's a need to be filled. People love porn, especially men, and there's no possible future where this won't be so. To pretend that we can have porn and not have the "objectification of women" or men for that matter is ridiculous. There's plenty of porn that includes the worship of women and the torture of men, as well.

I'll say it - I like being objectified, and I like objectifying my husband. But that's just one aspect of a multi-faceted sexual relationship. Sometimes we make love, sometimes we fck.

[Ghoulish Delight]

But I'm not going to deform my female sexuality to conform to what men tell me is sexy.And yet many of the same women who insist on this kind of personal credo would have men "deform their male sexuality" (setting aside for a moment €'s astute point that that assumes some sort of uniform gender sexuality) and forgo their desire for visual stimulation.

I'm with iSm on this one, while there's certainly something to be said for ones own internal model of sexuality, ultimately the goal is to appeal to someone else. Like any other aspect of ones personality you will continually be faced with the choice of sticking to your guns vs. making a compromise to please someone else.

There's got to be a balance and considering that appealing to the opposite sex is what has gotten our species this far, I'm in favor of that practice continuing.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

To be "sexy," one has to appeal sexually to the object of one's desire/purpose.

I would disagree with that statement. Feeling "sexy" sometimes has nothing to do with an object of desire-- tangible or intangible. For instance, I used to own a little blue dress. It was cute and draped perfectly around my cleavage. I remember vividly the feeling of sexiness in that dress, not because I cared if the robots at the insurance company noticed, but because I was attracted to myself when I wore it. Single women wear lingerie to bed sometimes, or wear racy panties, and it isn't always for an audience. Sexiness for sexiness' sake is allowed.

As far as the commodification of sexuality-- my concern with prostitution, porn, and stripping is for the women who feel as though they have no other choice. There's also an unusually high rate of survivors of sexual abuse within the strip industry, and my experience at a strip club once sort of dripped of sadness-- they certainly didn't seem to be enjoying their job. (And while I admit I'm really not visually stimulated, sexually speaking, I don't think that observation was colored by my concern-- in fact, it was the basis of it.) If it makes them happy, that's great. But I am not naive enough to believe that all of them are.

That said, Chris is right that there isn't one homogenous "female sexuality." Though I'm not visually stimulated, it doesn't mean that there are no women who are. And though I've come to desire a deeper, spiritual connection sexually, it doesn't mean that we all do. Desires differ.

I was shocked to listen to a woman in my life describe her desire to limit her son's MTV watching, because she didn't want her son to get a skewed idea of women and sex. "Women don't want sex," she said, "they don't just chase you down the hall." Well, here in my home they do. That conversation proved to me that women's sexuality isn't just one set of rules or one checklist of what's necessary for the feeling of desire.

[bewitched]

And the use of sex appeal for money, favors, survival, revenge, and a host of other goals is hardly unnatural to the female species either, imo.

It's hardly unnatural to the female of many species.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

And yet many of the same women who insist on this kind of personal credo would have men "deform their male sexuality" (setting aside for a moment €'s astute point that that assumes some sort of uniform gender sexuality) and forgo their desire for visual stimulation.

No, that's certainly not necessary. Because there ISN'T some sort of uniform gender sexuality. All that's necessary for a woman who chooses to look different than the "typical" is to find a partner who finds her more attractive than the "typical." And surely you have seen that there's not just one color, shape, or size in porn. Different things float different people's boats. (So. That's what the kids are calling it these days.)

[3894]

while there's certainly something to be said for ones own internal model of sexuality, ultimately the goal is to appeal to someone else. Like any other aspect of ones personality you will continually be faced with the choice of sticking to your guns vs. making a compromise to please someone else.


Much of the commodification of sex in our culture caters to men. Women, especially young ones, feel pressure to conform to what the patriarchy says is sexy.

None of this means that I don't want to appeal to my husband and please him. Of course I do. Our relationship is outside the sphere of commodification, even though as a married couple we are an economic unit.

[Strangler Lewis]

I certainly agree that everything doesn't have to be hearts and flowers. However, it depresses me to a degree that the cultural models for so much of our youth today are, respectively, wrestling and porn. In terms of what's degrading, foot binding and female genital mutilation, both of which are shepherded by women are degrading. As far as modern American sex goes, anything that makes you look like a f****** idiot for jumping through that hoop is degrading. That goes for any situation in life. Like Potter Stewart, I know it when I see it. And, of course, we will disagree.

[bewitched]

None of this means that I don't want to appeal to my husband and please him. Of course I do. Our relationship is outside the sphere of commodification, even though as a married couple we are an economic unit.

Not all aspects of commodification are tangible.

[3894]

Not all aspects of commodification are tangible.

Can you explain?

[bewitched]

Can you explain?

Sure.

I know this discussion started as money (or value) for sex. But when you move it into the realm of relationships, commodification encompasses a quid pro quo which only sometimes involves sex (although I would be the first to admit that sex will many times get you bigger, better gifts from a spouse or SO :D ).

For instance, you want to appeal to your husband...there is a commodity there...whether it's because you want to remain sexually attractive to him or simply because pleasing him gratifies you, you are receiving something you desire and/or is of (emotional) benefit to you, but not something tangible.

[blueerica]

What he said!

I have a friend who's an erotic model. Just to be clear - she gets naked, gets in outfits, gets tied up, often tortured to some degree, and photos are taken. No sex on camera, but still, obviously these pics are for men to get off on. She loves what she does. She's bookish, intelligent, funny, and completely down to earth about her job. Her husband is a set builder and they work together. She's also finishing up business school and has had plenty of "normal" jobs.

I have no problem with her occupation. There's a need to be filled. People love porn, especially men, and there's no possible future where this won't be so. To pretend that we can have porn and not have the "objectification of women" or men for that matter is ridiculous. There's plenty of porn that includes the worship of women and the torture of men, as well.

I'll say it - I like being objectified, and I like objectifying my husband. But that's just one aspect of a multi-faceted sexual relationship. Sometimes we make love, sometimes we fck.

Bless your soul, CP!

I have a friend that has done this in the past, and does so again, on occasion, and also does movies/videos. Just like your friend, there's no sex, but the sensuality is there for someone else down the road who purchases or downloads the picture. What I find most interesting about fetish is that it's all in the eye of the beholder, so it's safe to assume that our 'differences' if not mainstream, will still be attractive to someone.

To that extent, I also agree that sex and relationships are multi-faceted and are fulfilled by complexities, as you briefly described above. IMO, it's important and natural.

Now the commodification of sex... Hmm....

[Ghoulish Delight]

For instance, you want to appeal to your husband...there is a commodity there...whether it's because you want to remain sexually attractive to him or simply because pleasing him gratifies you, you are receiving something you desire and/or is of (emotional) benefit to you, but not something tangible.
Which is what I was getting at earlier when I mentioned compromise.

Every social interaction involves the decision whether to be completely self-serving or to do what someone else would like to gain approval, or to find somewhere in between. If you go with the former every time, you're going to be a very lonely person. If you go with the second choice all the time, you're going to be a pretty uninteresting person with no personality. To be successful, both models have their place, whether we're talking about sexuality, doing the dishes, or hanging out at Disneyland.

[blueerica]

Sure.

I know this discussion started as money (or value) for sex. But when you move it into the realm of relationships, commodification encompasses a quid pro quo which only sometimes involves sex (although I would be the first to admit that sex will many times get you bigger, better gifts from a spouse or SO :D ).

For instance, you want to appeal to your husband...there is a commodity there...whether it's because you want to remain sexually attractive to him or simply because pleasing him gratifies you, you are receiving something you desire and/or is of (emotional) benefit to you, but not something tangible.

Heh - this brings me back to my belief that we are all 'selfish' even when we are being giving, and that's definitely a good thing - it's how we survive. Even if you receive no payment, satisfaction and appreciation are 'payments' of their own. No one would volunteer if it made them feel bad about themselves, or in some way was a detractor to good in their life. The same goes for how we behave in relationships.

Good call, Bewitched!

[Alex]

Is the commodification of sex really that bad a thing?

I don't think so. But then I think we commodify just about everything (though not always in directly fiscal terms). As with everything else we commodify: stealing is bad.

What about the people that can't get sex?

What about it? If the commodification of sex is bad then the charitization of sex doesn't seem any better.

Is prostitution really that bad a thing if it's regulated and all parties consent?

I don't think so. Though I don't think it should be regulated either. Anybody should be able to hang out a shingle, so to speak, without seeking state permission.

Is the fact that sex sells not due largely in part to the fact that humans are sexual beings and that's what we like seeing?

I think that is obvious. If we didn't like seeing it, sex wouldn't sell. The more probing question is whether the such commodification, particularly in presenting the easier forms of sexuality (nudity, casual sex) rather than the more complex (but equally satisfying, if not more so) forms of sexuality, skews the ways in which we express our sexuality and whether this is for good or bad.

When does it become a degradation of women?

There is an important distinction. Can something be degrading to women in general without being degrading to the specific woman in charge? For example, I could argue that rape fantasy porn that suggests all women want is to be forced would not necessarily be degrading to the specific women involved (assuming they are consensual participants) but is degrading to women in general.

Can each woman choose whether or not it degrades her?

Yes, each individual woman will determine what they feels degrades them individually. But each individual woman (and man) will also make a determination as to what they feel degrades women generally. The two may not be identical (a woman may see no problem with anal sex but personally wouldn't do it; she may enjoy acting out rape fantasies but doesn't think public exhibition of them is ok).

All of this applies to men as well, as far as I'm concerned.

[Alex]

Heh - this brings me back to my belief that we are all 'selfish' even when we are being giving...

A man named Adam Smith once wrote a book (two actually) about this. He gained some fame for it.

[Strangler Lewis]

No one would volunteer if it made them feel bad about themselves, or in some way was a detractor to good in their life. The same goes for how we behave in relationships.


If that were remotely true, then entire shelves of the bookstore would disappear as would most afternoon TV.

As far as the legitimacy of stripping or fetish-videos-that-are-not-quite-screwing-on-film goes, I haven't seen any of these people on Higglytown Heroes, notwithstanding their apparent necessity. I think the test for how we feel about any job is to ask whether you'd be proud if your child came home and told you he or she was doing it. If you can say "That's wonderful, honey," because your daughter will have an easier time helping pay for college by getting gangbanged at bachelor parties rather than slinging pizza, then you have a true appreciation for the dignity of all work.

[bewitched]

I think the test for how we feel about any job is to ask whether you'd be proud if your child came home and told you he or she was doing it.

I disagree. I see nothing wrong with being a stripper. Does that mean I would be proud of my daughter if she did it? No.

As Alex pointed out, many people distinguish between what is acceptable (or degrading) to the public at large and what is acceptable (or degrading) to each of us individually.

After all, I wouldn't be very proud if my daughter came home and told me that she was a Republican either.

[Alex]

I wouldn't be happy if my son* came home and told me he was going to work at McDonald's but that doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with adults working at McDonald's.

There are reasons I wouldn't be pleased to have a child working in most areas of the sex industry but none of them have to do with objection to the sex itself. And in some areas I wouldn't be much bothered at all (except to the degree that we don't like to think about our close relatives having sex).

But I agree that a lot of people do things that make no actual sense. That doesn't mean a process of commodification isn't happening but people make bad deals all of the time ("I thought he would change," "when he isn't drunk he is really a wonderful person," "if I'm easy, he'll like me" are still examples of performing commodification, just with stupid valuations).

* I wouldn't be happy if my son came home (because I wouldn't be happy about having a son), but that is a different pathology.

[Strangler Lewis]

I disagree. I see nothing wrong with being a stripper. Does that mean I would be proud of my daughter if she did it? No.

As Alex pointed out, many people distinguish between what is acceptable (or degrading) to the public at large and what is acceptable (or degrading) to each of us individually.

After all, I wouldn't be very proud if my daughter came home and told me that she was a Republican either.

Yes, as my mother used to say when she thought I was being exceedingly egalitarian, "Somebody has to take away the garbage; that doesn't mean it has to be you." (There was even a Seinfeld episode to that effect.) So God bless the dead animal guy, and the Mexican kid he had to do the really tough jobs in the high heat, but . . .

It's a documented fact that the naked girls pretending to be lesbians at spring break and in Girls Gone Wild videos are all Republicans.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

There are plenty of people that do supposedly degrading things for money, many of which have nothing to do with sex. Working a low-paid office job where you take irrational orders all day from a jerk of a boss with no hope of advancement is just as self-destructive as working as a prostitute because you're completely desperate for cash, IMHO. All of the various underlings of working society are comparable.

If my child came home and said they got a good job in any industry, and I could tell it was a good position with good people, where they feel good about themselves doing something they enjoy, and they seemed happy and healthy in mind and body, then I'd be all for it. I'd say that's hard to come by in any world of work.

[Strangler Lewis]

Bad jobs and bad treatment are bad. However, you can't seriously tell me that when you see an unhappy office worker, you feel as bad for him/her as for some tackily dressed hooker yelling at cars on a street corner in a bad neighborhood in the rain or for some drug addict on a web site blowing a horse.

[Alex]

No, but the reasons don't have to do with the sex.

I also don't assume that the woman blowing a horse on a web site is a drug addict. I know enough people to know that isn't the only reason someone would do such a thing.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

wow, another subject I know nothing about.


I think I'll go post in the Political thread.

[Alex]

No, but the reasons don't have to do with the sex.

To expand a bit. I don't equate doing something for bad reasons to the thing itself being bad.

Now, the bad reasons that lead people to prostitution and the sex trade are frequently more pitiable (to my view) than the bad reasons people end up living in a cube farm, even if in the end result both are equally miserable (how do you measure misery? five hundred twenty-five thousand six hundred minutes...).

Then there is the fact that because society as an average has decided that being a sex worker is distasteful, it is sad that a person who feels it is their only avenue (or simply because they like it) is burdened with the extra baggage that has nothing to do with the actual sex but rather the reaction of others.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Bad jobs and bad treatment are bad. However, you can't seriously tell me that when you see an unhappy office worker, you feel as bad for him/her as for some tackily dressed hooker yelling at cars on a street corner in a bad neighborhood in the rain or for some drug addict on a web site blowing a horse.An unhappy office worker can be far worse than unhappy. There are plenty of suicidal, lonely people stuck in jobs that drain their personality, energy, and self-esteem dry. That's why they call it "going postal".

There are also plenty of self-destructive people living in wealthy situations. It's not always about money. I personally think that people that let cameras into their actual lives for the entertainment of others (like Jessica Simpson or Danny Bonaduce) are the worst kind of whores there are. Game show-style reality series are a different beast than these my-awful-existence-is-on-display type freak shows. If my child came home saying they were doing THAT, I'd definitely be disappointed. That's where I start using words like "exploitation" and "degrading".

Making issues like exploitation supposedly gender and career specific is entirely off-point, IMHO. I truly believe that whatever makes people happy, honestly happy, is what they're supposed to do, regardless of designation.

[blueerica]

If that were remotely true, then entire shelves of the bookstore would disappear as would most afternoon TV.


I view this as a probably inherent mental pathology that requires help, likely from a professional who can deal with the often long-standing emotional issues that develop in people, myself included. Often, when I have done something that results (often repeatedly) in unhappiness or some other unwanted outcome, I did so in the belief that a positive outcome would happen, logic be damned.

My mother for example:
She has gone from bad relationship to bad relationship of varying degrees. She remains in these 'bad' relationships often because she thinks her actions will give her love (or her definition of love), or the opportunity to 'change' or 'help' someone (something she believes will make her, and the other person happy - gaining their gratitude for a 'better life'). Despite the often abusive (mental and/or physical) that come as a result of staying, the brief moments of feeling something she craves (and often feels like she can't get elsewhere) are enough of a reward to keep her there. I find that this is often the case.

There is also the flipside. Those who 'avoid.' I have a friend who is fairly shy. Painfully, at times. She would like to be more confident and wonders why she doesn't have more friends (negative outcome of her shyness), yet she remains quiet, away, and sometimes aloof because inside she hopes to avoid a potentially painful moment or rejection. By my definition of selfish, I'm not trying to qualify it beyond doing something or avoiding something because a person percieves it to benefit them, even if they're not directly thinking of the benefits. There are countless books on confidence, and simply because they're there doesn't discount my view on humanity. The people buying it are, again, hoping that doing so will result in a positive outcome.

But back to the topic at hand, the commodification of sex. I don't really hold a view on it, in terms of other people. I would not do it myself, at least currently, though I try to not pass judgement on those who do.

My cousin is a former stripper, who also is a recovering drug addict. Interestingly enough, her three stints swinging around the pole did not co-incide with the times she was using drugs. For her, a part of her liked the attention, but even more of her loved the pay. With the limited education she had at the time, plus her ballet and jazz dance background, there were few opportunities to make that kind of money. She sold her 'sex' for money and for the feeling of being desired.

[blueerica]

Oh, and Adam Smith. I've heard of that guy. :)

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

.

My mother for example:

The tale you tell is all too true. I've seen it so many times and it's just so upsetting to see this type of self-distruction. You could almost liken it to a full-blown disorder - who knows it might actually be one. (not that I would know- No PhD here)


I guess my point is, gather 100 people and they will have 100 different reasons, feelings, ideas and beliefs about everything. About the subject of Erica's story and the topic of sexuality - there will also be 100 different ideas and reasoning. Mostly because these choices are made within the confinds of the human mind and no matter how we can justify or try to reason what they are, being sexual or whatever, we as another mind will never fully understand. Just as we know people can't understand everything about what we do and who we really are.

.02:coffee:

[€uroMeinke]

I have to wonder if the stigma of being a sex-worker is changing with the coming of the porn generation. Porn Stars have already become celebrities as the industry has become more mainstream. Los Angeles Magazine even did a cover story on one girl's dream to be a porn star - sure that was there to sell magazines.

Not having kids, I can't really answer how I'd react if my son or daughter decided to enter the sex-industry, but if I look the other direction, I somehow think it would be kinda cool if one of my parents one did a stint as burlesque act somewhere in Wiemar Germany.

[Prudence]

In theory, I don't have an issue with the commodifying sex. In practice, I worry (of course) about the bleed over into other areas. I have never, to my knowledge, been a guy, so I can't say for certain what it's like being a guy. But my experience being on hiring committees is that there is sometimes an association of "sexy" with "competent" that is applied to women, but not men. I'm sure that for some people the opposite is true, and "sexy" equals "slightly less intelligent than toast."

I've known my share of strippers and former strippers and porno chicks (video and magazine), and most of them were sharp, up-and-coming (har) women using what they were given to make a buck or two on the way to their latest PhD. Actually, I don't think I've ever known one that wasn't pursuing a regular, reputable degree. They were comfortable with themselves and whatever. But the customers? Very few customers were well adjusted. Most of them were delusional, desperate men.

This would probably be clearer if I were more coherent at the moment. It's like so many other things -- it's perfectly rational on paper, selling sex, but somehow when put into practice it gets all warped. Nothing really to be done about it - it's just another example of how humanity sucks.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Aside from abuses within the industry, I have take no moral stance against the sex industry, whether it's prostitution or pornography. Sex as commodity is nothing new under the sun. Erotic art is nothing new, it's just evolved to reflect new media.

I have some concerns that pornography can have an adverse effect on the inexperienced in that it may overly influence their tastes/expectations. But so do a lot of things.

When it comes to sexual partnerships, it's probably best if both people share similar interests/curiosities, etc. I have seen a few couples wrecked by their diverging sexual interests. In one case, a woman I know had to deal with her long-term boyfriend's escalating interest in pornography. He wanted to watch it with her almost every time they had sex, which wasn't previously the case. She had a pretty liberal attitude about pornography until it seemed to overwhelm her relationship - became the basis of their sex life. It made her feel like the sex was all about him.

I wouldn't blame him, necessarily. Frankly, he turned into a jerk. But in that instance, pornography had a negative influence on a relationship. Or maybe it was just their shifting interests. Maybe they were simply falling out of love.

You just have to like what you like and go with your instinct and find partners with similar desires or an open-mindedness about how one individually seeks his or her own pleasure, and how as a couple pleasure is mutually achieved. When it comes to porn, it's often to each her own. I can't claim to watch a lot of it (though I have watched some and enjoyed it too) and pornographic still images almost never do anything for me. But erotic art and writing very often strike a chord, because both are connected to the act of making or thinking about something erotic. Part of the stimulation is the thought behind what I'm reading or looking at.

[innerSpaceman]

My only problem with the commodification of sex is that it's too expensive.

[€uroMeinke]

My only problem with the commodification of sex is that it's too expensive.

That's what third world counties are for

[scaeagles]

And toasters.

[bewitched]

And toasters.

Ow!




;)

[Strangler Lewis]

That's what third world counties are for

Alpine? Tehama? Plumas?

[Morrigoon]

On the whole I suppose I don't have an issue with the existence of porn or prostitution, however, I do have some concern regarding the unrealistic expectations it tends to create in men, especially men who need all the help they can get when it comes to women, and further damages their ability to enter into anything resembling a meaningful relationship.

What I'm referring to is porn's tendency to portray women as vacuous automatons with no greater desire in life than to shove her partner's member into her various orifices. I think in the lonely young man (think your typical Mountain Dew-chugging, World of Warcraft-playing, greasy-haired mancub), who, almost by definition, is exposed to a great deal of porn and almost no real women, receives an unreal impression of how to attract and appreciate women.

Sadly, the deadly combination of those portrayals, and the not terribly improved ones in regular media, leads many men to value women solely for their sexual appeal, and not for their abilities, which ends up hurting women in the workplace.

Okay, it's a stretch, but I think it's there. There really are men who only value women in sexual terms, and as a result will always have a more favorable impression of men at work than women, no matter how hard those women work.

But regardless, I'm not against the existence of porn or prostitution. I do wish there was a way women could appear both sexy and self-sufficient, but I know many men are hard-wired to need to feel like providers, so women as equals tend to emasculate them and therefore wouldn't turn them on sexually. Well, except the men who get off on that sort of thing ;)

[Alex]

What I'm referring to is porn's tendency to portray women as vacuous automatons with no greater desire in life than to shove her partner's member into her various orifices.

What about the equally dehumanizing presentation of men as vacuous automatons just looking to stick it in the the nearest orifice presented.

Neither one much matches my personal experience.


And if anything, my "influence" from porn wasn't thinking that all women behaved that way wondering where the women who behaved like that exist.

[€uroMeinke]

For my Birthday I received a book of Redheads - Photos from the Playboy Archives from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The racy porn of their day, they seem mostly sweet and innocent compared to their contemporaries. Gals with tan lines reposed on a rug, a woman quickly fetching a bottle of milk from the porch - I have to expect they are off living some suburban dreamlife. I don't know how that fits here other than these images are actually quite charming in their way.

[Morrigoon]

Oh Alex, you disappoint me.. I would have counted on you to point out romance novels' tendency to create unrealistic expectations in women of men who actually care about the things women want them to care about!

Romance novels = chick porn

[€uroMeinke]

Eh, Ann Rice books seem to give people unrealistic expectations that they can be Vampires.

Much of the commodity of sex is really trading in fantasies about sex, which has it's role - even in experiencing real sex.

[Boss Radio]

To quote George Harrison in Yellow Submarine:
"It's all in the mind, you know."

[Prudence]

I think the problem with the unrealistic portrayals of women is that it recalls the not-to-distant past when sex was, essentially, the main job description for women. Well, sex and dusting.

For example, for my mom, college was considered a place for her to look and behave fetching enough to get her Mrs. degree. Her function was to land a husband with a good job and start pumping out babies. Yes, things have improved a great deal since then, but it's recent enough that it's a bad habit into which society slips fairly easily. The time where men were judged on their ability to kill some hairy animal with large fangs is sufficiently distant that I don't think the sexy = competent equation affects men to the same degree that it does women.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I think the problem with the unrealistic portrayals of women is that it recalls the not-to-distant past when sex was, essentially, the main job description for women. Well, sex and dusting.


An older family member recently told me that when she explained to her husband that she wasn't in the mood, his only response was that it was her duty as his wife to perform. And though she said, when I asked, that he didn't force her, I honestly don't think she felt she had another choice because it's somewhat ingrained in her that he's right.

Holy. ****ing. Crap.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

The time where men were judged on their ability to kill some hairy animal with large fangs is sufficiently distant that I don't think the sexy = competent equation affects men to the same degree that it does women.

I agree with what you say about women and slipping back into the rut of "women make babies and dust," but i would dissagree with the above statement that its "easy" for guys. Trust me, it's not. Its not a big heart or kindness that is required - only a bank statement and credit report.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I agree with what you say about women and slipping back into the rut of "women make babies and dust," but i would dissagree with the above statement that its "easy" for guys. Trust me, it's not. Its not a big heart or kindness that is required - only a bank statement and credit report.

Oy, and I would disagree with this statement. Not that it isn't easy for guys, but the kind of women who are only concerned with a bank statement or a credit report are the shallow ones. And if someone is only pursuing the shallow ones, that's one's own funeral.

[Prudence]

I agree with what you say about women and slipping back into the rut of "women make babies and dust," but i would dissagree with the above statement that its "easy" for guys. Trust me, it's not. Its not a big heart or kindness that is required - only a bank statement and credit report.

I didn't say that it was easy for guys. I said that I didn't think that sexy = competent affected guys to the same degree that it did women, referring to general going about one's business (such as in the workplace).

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

Oy, and I would disagree with this statement. Not that it isn't easy for guys, but the kind of women who are only concerned with a bank statement or a credit report are the shallow ones. And if someone is only pursuing the shallow ones, that's one's own funeral.

Oy, then there are alot of shallow ones out there! :rolleyes:

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I didn't say that it was easy for guys. I said that I didn't think that sexy = competent affected guys to the same degree that it did women, referring to general going about one's business (such as in the workplace).

Ok, that's fair. Understood. But I think that would depend on who was in charge. I've had plenty of female bosses that would gladly pass me up for a cute guy anyday and they have. From a historical POV, the same goes for women in the "chased around the desk" department.