Commodification of sex

[tracilicious]

I wanted to talk about this some more, but I would prefer to do it in a thread that doesn't involve my offspring.

Is the commodification of sex really that bad a thing? What about the people that can't get sex? Is prostitution really that bad a thing if it's regulated and all parties consent? It's going to happen anyways.

How about commercially? Is the fact that sex sells not due largely in part to the fact that humans are sexual beings and that's what we like seeing? When does it become a degradation of women? Can each woman choose whether or not it degrades her? I know that no add or strip club can make me feel degraded.

Thoughts?

[3894]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

I know that no add or strip club can make me feel degraded.

Right but in what way is a strip club a reflection of female sexuality, meaning response to visual stimulation and depersonalization of sex? (Please don't tell anyone I just wrote that sentence. It's terrible but you get what I mean. Men respond much more directly to visual stimulation and so on.)

I'm okay with the commodification of sex for adults. But I'm not going to deform my female sexuality to conform to what men tell me is sexy.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by 3894

Right but in what way is a strip club a reflection of female sexuality, meaning response to visual stimulation and depersonalization of sex? (Please don't tell anyone I just wrote that sentence. It's terrible but you get what I mean. Men respond much more directly to visual stimulation and so on.)

Just a clarification as this is a generalization, I'm not so sure here is some universal "female sexuality." And while men may be more visual, it seems that at least some women enjoy being viewed and desired sexually. But I'm a guy and maybe I read too many letters to Penthouse growing up.

Any strippers (current or ex) that post here?

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by bewitched

Is this the one?

Yep, that's it.

Originally Posted by 3894

... but in what way is a strip club a reflection of female sexuality, meaning response to visual stimulation and depersonalization of sex?

I don't see what that has to do with it. To be "sexy," one has to appeal sexually to the object of one's desire/purpose. If that object is men, then you appeal to, among other things, their strong visual sense of sex.

To appeal to men is very much a natural part of (hetero) women's sexuality. And the use of sex appeal for money, favors, survival, revenge, and a host of other goals is hardly unnatural to the female species either, imo.



.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Yep, that's it.


I don't see what that has to do with it. To be "sexy," one has to appeal sexually to the object of one's desire/purpose. If that object is men, then you appeal to, among other things, their strong visual sense of sex.

To appeal to men is very much a natural part of (hetero) women's sexuality. And the use of sex appeal for money, favors, survival, revenge, and a host of other goals is hardly unnatural to the female species either, imo.



.

What he said!

I have a friend who's an erotic model. Just to be clear - she gets naked, gets in outfits, gets tied up, often tortured to some degree, and photos are taken. No sex on camera, but still, obviously these pics are for men to get off on. She loves what she does. She's bookish, intelligent, funny, and completely down to earth about her job. Her husband is a set builder and they work together. She's also finishing up business school and has had plenty of "normal" jobs.

I have no problem with her occupation. There's a need to be filled. People love porn, especially men, and there's no possible future where this won't be so. To pretend that we can have porn and not have the "objectification of women" or men for that matter is ridiculous. There's plenty of porn that includes the worship of women and the torture of men, as well.

I'll say it - I like being objectified, and I like objectifying my husband. But that's just one aspect of a multi-faceted sexual relationship. Sometimes we make love, sometimes we fck.

[blueerica]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

What he said!

I have a friend who's an erotic model. Just to be clear - she gets naked, gets in outfits, gets tied up, often tortured to some degree, and photos are taken. No sex on camera, but still, obviously these pics are for men to get off on. She loves what she does. She's bookish, intelligent, funny, and completely down to earth about her job. Her husband is a set builder and they work together. She's also finishing up business school and has had plenty of "normal" jobs.

I have no problem with her occupation. There's a need to be filled. People love porn, especially men, and there's no possible future where this won't be so. To pretend that we can have porn and not have the "objectification of women" or men for that matter is ridiculous. There's plenty of porn that includes the worship of women and the torture of men, as well.

I'll say it - I like being objectified, and I like objectifying my husband. But that's just one aspect of a multi-faceted sexual relationship. Sometimes we make love, sometimes we fck.

Bless your soul, CP!

I have a friend that has done this in the past, and does so again, on occasion, and also does movies/videos. Just like your friend, there's no sex, but the sensuality is there for someone else down the road who purchases or downloads the picture. What I find most interesting about fetish is that it's all in the eye of the beholder, so it's safe to assume that our 'differences' if not mainstream, will still be attractive to someone.

To that extent, I also agree that sex and relationships are multi-faceted and are fulfilled by complexities, as you briefly described above. IMO, it's important and natural.

Now the commodification of sex... Hmm....

[Alex]

Is the commodification of sex really that bad a thing?

I don't think so. But then I think we commodify just about everything (though not always in directly fiscal terms). As with everything else we commodify: stealing is bad.

What about the people that can't get sex?

What about it? If the commodification of sex is bad then the charitization of sex doesn't seem any better.

Is prostitution really that bad a thing if it's regulated and all parties consent?

I don't think so. Though I don't think it should be regulated either. Anybody should be able to hang out a shingle, so to speak, without seeking state permission.

Is the fact that sex sells not due largely in part to the fact that humans are sexual beings and that's what we like seeing?

I think that is obvious. If we didn't like seeing it, sex wouldn't sell. The more probing question is whether the such commodification, particularly in presenting the easier forms of sexuality (nudity, casual sex) rather than the more complex (but equally satisfying, if not more so) forms of sexuality, skews the ways in which we express our sexuality and whether this is for good or bad.

When does it become a degradation of women?

There is an important distinction. Can something be degrading to women in general without being degrading to the specific woman in charge? For example, I could argue that rape fantasy porn that suggests all women want is to be forced would not necessarily be degrading to the specific women involved (assuming they are consensual participants) but is degrading to women in general.

Can each woman choose whether or not it degrades her?

Yes, each individual woman will determine what they feels degrades them individually. But each individual woman (and man) will also make a determination as to what they feel degrades women generally. The two may not be identical (a woman may see no problem with anal sex but personally wouldn't do it; she may enjoy acting out rape fantasies but doesn't think public exhibition of them is ok).

All of this applies to men as well, as far as I'm concerned.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

To be "sexy," one has to appeal sexually to the object of one's desire/purpose.

I would disagree with that statement. Feeling "sexy" sometimes has nothing to do with an object of desire-- tangible or intangible. For instance, I used to own a little blue dress. It was cute and draped perfectly around my cleavage. I remember vividly the feeling of sexiness in that dress, not because I cared if the robots at the insurance company noticed, but because I was attracted to myself when I wore it. Single women wear lingerie to bed sometimes, or wear racy panties, and it isn't always for an audience. Sexiness for sexiness' sake is allowed.

As far as the commodification of sexuality-- my concern with prostitution, porn, and stripping is for the women who feel as though they have no other choice. There's also an unusually high rate of survivors of sexual abuse within the strip industry, and my experience at a strip club once sort of dripped of sadness-- they certainly didn't seem to be enjoying their job. (And while I admit I'm really not visually stimulated, sexually speaking, I don't think that observation was colored by my concern-- in fact, it was the basis of it.) If it makes them happy, that's great. But I am not naive enough to believe that all of them are.

That said, Chris is right that there isn't one homogenous "female sexuality." Though I'm not visually stimulated, it doesn't mean that there are no women who are. And though I've come to desire a deeper, spiritual connection sexually, it doesn't mean that we all do. Desires differ.

I was shocked to listen to a woman in my life describe her desire to limit her son's MTV watching, because she didn't want her son to get a skewed idea of women and sex. "Women don't want sex," she said, "they don't just chase you down the hall." Well, here in my home they do. That conversation proved to me that women's sexuality isn't just one set of rules or one checklist of what's necessary for the feeling of desire.

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

And the use of sex appeal for money, favors, survival, revenge, and a host of other goals is hardly unnatural to the female species either, imo.

It's hardly unnatural to the female of many species.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by 3894

But I'm not going to deform my female sexuality to conform to what men tell me is sexy.

And yet many of the same women who insist on this kind of personal credo would have men "deform their male sexuality" (setting aside for a moment €'s astute point that that assumes some sort of uniform gender sexuality) and forgo their desire for visual stimulation.

I'm with iSm on this one, while there's certainly something to be said for ones own internal model of sexuality, ultimately the goal is to appeal to someone else. Like any other aspect of ones personality you will continually be faced with the choice of sticking to your guns vs. making a compromise to please someone else.

There's got to be a balance and considering that appealing to the opposite sex is what has gotten our species this far, I'm in favor of that practice continuing.