Debates of all ilk

[Alex]

Yes, I know why she said it, just pointing out she didn't ever really use it (though I'm not 100% certain whether they knew they were on air at that point so it may have just been intended as a little power play between the two of them).

She was a sports journalist for a while so if there is anything I think she is more likely to know it would be the White Sox. If nothing else, she's probably seen Field of Dreams.

[Ruthie]

It is probably my age showing, but I would have had far more respect for Palin (of course, I would have to have some respect to have far more, I suppose) had she treated the older and more experienced Biden with a little respect.

My parents drilled it in my head that older people are referred to by their last name. I don't live strictly by that rule now but on the stage of a VP debate, in front of millions, her "Can I call you Joe?" just seemed out of place and too familiar to me. UGH!

I think alphabassettgrrl nailed the possible reasons for the question. Again, UGH!

[Ghoulish Delight]

Let's see, the dow dropped 500 more points today. Good luck to McCain tonight in his quest to change the subject from the economy.

[Strangler Lewis]

It is probably my age showing, but I would have had far more respect for Palin (of course, I would have to have some respect to have far more, I suppose) had she treated the older and more experienced Biden with a little respect.

My parents drilled it in my head that older people are referred to by their last name. I don't live strictly by that rule now but on the stage of a VP debate, in front of millions, her "Can I call you Joe?" just seemed out of place and too familiar to me. UGH!

I think alphabassettgrrl nailed the possible reasons for the question. Again, UGH!

For the same reason, I also find Obama's use of first names--Hillary, John--during debates to be a slightly off choice.

Of course, Biden blew the best possible answer to her question: "Honey, I'm a married man."

[Gemini Cricket]

For the same reason, I also find Obama's use of first names--Hillary, John--during debates to be a slightly off choice.

I don't. All three are Senators, equals. I like it, in fact.

[scaeagles]

Let's see, the dow dropped 500 more points today. Good luck to McCain tonight in his quest to change the subject from the economy.

I don't think he's going to at all. He's going to hammer on Fannie and Freddie, his early calls for reform when no one else listened, and Obama's contributions from the organization (one of the top in the Senate). Plus, he knows he can't. If he isn't well schooled on it by now with what's going on, he frankly doesn't deserve to be President (neither man does IMO).

Since Obama voted for the bill as well, I don't think Obama can hammer him on it. Frankly, they both deserve to be beaten over the head with the phone book size bill, but that's beside the point.

[BarTopDancer]

I'm watching because I want to see Brokaw moderate. This isn't going to change my mind.

[BarTopDancer]

Should Fannie and Freddie be added to the drinking game?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

To use one of my favorites iSm isms, Oh My Frelling Gawd. This debate is like a joke, with a two headed monster saying the same things over and over. It's like a goddamned echo chamber.

I'm sticking through it though...while multitasking.

[Alex]

As one person said this morning, because of the format it isn't a debate, it isn't a town hall, it is just two press conferences run in parallel.

[The Lovely Mrs. tod]

Is it me, or is Brokaw getting pissy?

[BarTopDancer]

I want to see Brokaw take them down.

[BarTopDancer]

WOW.

I had to turn it off after that. I want the last word. No me. NO ME. NO MEEEE I want the last word!!!!!!!!!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Few random notes....

Obama +1 for mentioning young people volunteerism

McCain -42 for condescending tone (his trademark, by now). It's so hard to watch him baby the country.

Obama -27 for being too vague and general.

Obama -18 for repetitiveness.

Obama +61 for not being John Kerry. He's as armed with comebacks as McCain is.

....

Oops, behind on posting this

[Cadaverous Pallor]

WOW.

I had to turn it off after that. I want the last word. No me. NO ME. NO MEEEE I want the last word!!!!!!!!!Yeah, that was painful

[BarTopDancer]

Few random notes....

Obama +1 for mentioning young people volunteerism

McCain -42 for condescending tone (his trademark, by now). It's so hard to watch him baby the country.

Obama -27 for being too vague and general.

Obama -18 for repetitiveness.

Obama +61 for not being John Kerry. He's as armed with comebacks as McCain is.

....

Oops, behind on posting this

McCain - 100 for sounding extremely meek in volume and tone.

[Morrigoon]

Of course, Biden blew the best possible answer to her question: "Honey, I'm a married man."

Apparently I have to spread some around first, so visible mojo for the ultimate comeback!

[scaeagles]

my biggest question - will there be outrage at the candidate who brought up 9/11? I mean, how dare he!

[mousepod]

my biggest question - will there be outrage at the candidate who brought up 9/11? I mean, how dare he!

I know you're kidding, but I think that bringing up 9/11 to conjure fear vs. bringing up the squandered unity post-9/11 is something altogether different.

[scaeagles]

It was most certainly said in jest, but no matter what context brought up by McCain it would be lambasted. As an example, in the last debate, McCain brought it up as an example of how the parties can come together in times of crisis, and in these parts he was slammed on big time.

[Gemini Cricket]

And McCain should be lambasted if he did mention it. It's been the theme song of the Republican Party since 9/12/01. Obama was smart to bring it up and take it away from McCain should he attempt to make the "with Republicans you're safer" argument.

I found the debate mostly boring.

Obama was clearly the "winner" of this debate. He came across as being more likable and like CP said he hit back when necessary and didn't let things go like Kerry did.

There were too many awkward moments coming from McCain. The hairplugs line, the nailing Jell-o to the wall comment, the weird pacing he did...

This may seem like a minor point but McCain's "that one" stuck with me. It was condescending and a failed attempt at a light-hearted moment. It hit me the wrong way and I think it will with other people too.

The Obamas stuck around after the debate was over and talked to people. That played very well for him. McCain and his Stepford Wife disappeared.

[JWBear]

It was most certainly said in jest, but no matter what context brought up by McCain it would be lambasted. As an example, in the last debate, McCain brought it up as an example of how the parties can come together in times of crisis, and in these parts he was slammed on big time.

Nope. Sorry Leo. I just scanned through the entire discussion of the last debate. Not one mention of 9/11 by anyone here.

[scaeagles]

Perhaps it was in the McCain discussion. I know it happened because I questioned it.

Edited to add:

My bad. It was predebate when McCain was talking about suspending his campaign.

It started here and went on. (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showpost.php?p=241639&postcount=882)

In fact, JW, you made your feelings pretty well known (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showpost.php?p=241683&postcount=893)....but I guess it was only when "they" bring up 9/11.

[mousepod]

You beat me to it, Leo.

I guess in the context that McCain put it, it is less offensive to me than to some of the others in that thread. In hindsight though, since McCain really didn't suspend anything and instead was playing a political game, I question everything he said in his little speech.

[scaeagles]

McCain and his Stepford Wife disappeared.

Yeah. I saw Obama and his America hating wife socializing. Oh, wait. My bad. We aren't supposed to use ad hominem attacks here.

[scaeagles]

I guess in the context that McCain put it, it is less offensive to me than to some of the others in that thread. In hindsight though, since McCain really didn't suspend anything and instead was playing a political game, I question everything he said in his little speech.

I agree. McCain was certainly playing a political game.

That reminds me of something that amused me in the debate. McCain said we'd tackle energy, health care, and entitlements at the same time. Obama said we had to prioritize. The reason I found this amusing was that Obama, when McCain suspended his campaign, said Presidents have to be able to multitask.

[scaeagles]

Obama was clearly the "winner" of this debate.

Even though I still won't be voting for him, I thought McCain won.

I thought that only one of them truly butchered an answer, which was near the end when Obama was talking about Russia and Putin.

[JWBear]

Perhaps it was in the McCain discussion. I know it happened because I questioned it.

Edited to add:

My bad. It was predebate when McCain was talking about suspending his campaign.

It started here and went on. (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showpost.php?p=241639&postcount=882)

In fact, JW, you made your feelings pretty well known (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showpost.php?p=241683&postcount=893)....but I guess it was only when "they" bring up 9/11.

As Mousepod stated above, it's all in the context.... and in the volume. I hear it over and over (and over and over) from Republicans. And when they do, it's all about fearmongering. All about distraction. Bush and Co couldn't give a rat's ass about the victims of 9/11 - only in the power the phrase holds over frightened people.

[€uroMeinke]

I heard some of it on the radio, I found McCain's use of the phrae "my friend" annoying - made me have flashbacks to the movie Barfly. Bukowski would have made an interesting president.

[flippyshark]

I agree. McCain was certainly playing a political game.

That reminds me of something that amused me in the debate. McCain said we'd tackle energy, health care, and entitlements at the same time. Obama said we had to prioritize. The reason I found this amusing was that Obama, when McCain suspended his campaign, said Presidents have to be able to multitask.

He didn't say we HAVE to prioritize. He was answering the question as posed, "how would you prioritize these?" (McCain got the more crowd pleasing answer out first - we can do it all - and Obama would have looked lame if he said the same thing.)

[flippyshark]

I heard some of it on the radio, I found McCain's use of the phrae "my friend" annoying - made me have flashbacks to the movie Barfly. Bukowski would have made an interesting president.

That would obviously have been the killer drinking game line for this evening. (Last week, of course, it was "maverick.")

[€uroMeinke]

I was amused how later in the debate both candidates kept talking about what the number one priority for this and that was. Of course when everything's a number one priority it means nothing is. I expect plenty of gridlock for years to come, whoever moves into the Whitehouse.

[BarTopDancer]

I agree. McCain was certainly playing a political game.

That reminds me of something that amused me in the debate. McCain said we'd tackle energy, health care, and entitlements at the same time. Obama said we had to prioritize. The reason I found this amusing was that Obama, when McCain suspended his campaign, said Presidents have to be able to multitask.

Huge difference. If you can't run a campaign and give feedback on a bill that you aren't authoring then maybe you shouldn't be President. How can you multi-task on 3 different areas that take funding when trying to fix the current economic crisis?

I didn't take Obama to mean that he was going to ignore the other 2 areas, just that they were going to be prioritized and focused on fixing one at a time.

[Alex]

I don't see how this debate could have been anything other than boring. At least in the first 60 minutes (all I saw before we had to go out) I don't think a single question touched on a topic that wasn't already discussed in the first one.

I know we're supposed to view town halls as somehow probing but the fact is that an audience of average voters just isn't likely to ask very probing questions and with everything pre-screened you aren't even going to get a periodic quack question.

[Gemini Cricket]

Thank goodness no one said "Maverick".
I lost track of how many times "my friends", "look" (mostly by Obama) and "fundamental" were used.

[Alex]

Also, while it may sound good and seem directed at helping Main Street, but the government simply buying all the mortgages and repegging them at current value is simply a horrible idea. For either end of the political spectrum.

I'm not sure what McCain is thinking with that.

[Ghoulish Delight]

To continue a bit of semantics, JWBear did specify "using 9/11 like they do" (emphasis mine).

Just sayin'.

I was going to put a detailed word in on the "use it for fear vs. use it for unity" question, but I mercifully had something better to do than watch the debate, so I only know the context of McCain's use. So whatever.

[JWBear]

Keith Olbermann said it far better than I could (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26649407#26649407)

[Not Afraid]

McCain on a bender. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z6uka7DoVI)

[BarTopDancer]

"My Friends" annoys me and highlights the informal tone of their campaign along with Palin's "may I call you Joe?".

It reminds me of a parent who is trying to hard to be a friend instead of a parent or leader.

[innerSpaceman]

McCain's not one to be counted for dead .... but assuming the conventional wisdom is right and this was his last chance to turn things around by having a major victory ... the fact that he didn't - - means he lost.


I have to wonder why John McCain was so clearly uncomfortable with the format he pushed and pushed for. He even got in a dig about Obama not wanting to participate in Town Hall debates. Yet Obama was poised, comfortable and ultimately presidential. McCain was nervous, testy, petulant and obviously ill-at ease.

And yeah, sorry, but walking around the stage looking like a frail, old, cripple did not do his image any good either.


"That one" did not go over well with many folks, Mr. Cricket. Between that and insinuating the black man who asked a question about the economy had never heard of Fannie May, McCain came off as something of a racist.


Then again, that's the constituancy he has to count on if he wants to win the election at this point.

[scaeagles]

As Mousepod stated above, it's all in the context.... and in the volume.


Right. Context. When you wrote what I linked to, the context of your post was in reference to what McCain said (at least it was only a few posts after when MBC pointed it out). YOu didn't seem to care about the context in which McCain used it....which was complimentary to both parties.

To be clear, I have no problem with what Obama said.

[scaeagles]

McCain's not one to be counted for dead .... but assuming the conventional wisdom is right and this was his last chance to turn things around by having a major victory ... the fact that he didn't - - means he lost.

I probably agree with that, but Zogby has shown a trend moving toward McCain in the last few days. The debate may provide a point in the polls for McCain, and one to two points isn't much in the last 4 weeks.

Certainly Zogby is only one poll, but I believe most have shown a bit of closing over the last week.

[Strangler Lewis]

If they can't put on a better show than that, they should cancel the third installment.

I get a kick out of McCain's selling of his commander-in-chief abilities:
"I have plans for every military contingency."
"What are they?"
"I can't tell you."

I do think Obama should try to craft a response to McCain's point that Obama has never reached across the aisle or defied his own party's leaders.

[3894]

McCain was nervous, testy, petulant and obviously ill-at ease.

And yeah, sorry, but walking around the stage looking like a frail, old, cripple did not do his image any good either.

Don't forget the shortness of breath at times. Some 72 year-olds have the stamina to be president. John McCain is too old.

[innerSpaceman]

"Steady hand at the tiller" is not a line he should have used, much less TWICE.


And I'm not referring to his physical unattributes. He has a reputation for impetuousness which he so publically demonstrated to America with his non-suspended Campain Suspension stunt.

His rep as the completely out of control quasi-crazy man was inflated for all to see ... and when comparing him to Mr. Freeze Obama .... well, "steady hand at the tiller" was not something to say over and over.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I probably agree with that, but Zogby has shown a trend moving toward McCain in the last few days. The debate may provide a point in the polls for McCain, and one to two points isn't much in the last 4 weeks.

Certainly Zogby is only one poll, but I believe most have shown a bit of closing over the last week.Zogby's pretty much alone in that. Every poll I've been watching has Obama holding or increasing his lead.

[Alex]

Per the RealClearPolitics average of national tracking polls, they tightened by about 1 point over the last week.

But that is moot, the electoral map has only continued to swing towards Obama.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

That reminds me of something that amused me in the debate. McCain said we'd tackle energy, health care, and entitlements at the same time. Obama said we had to prioritize. The reason I found this amusing was that Obama, when McCain suspended his campaign, said Presidents have to be able to multitask.As Flippy said, that was the question. "Prioritize these." McCain did not. Obama did. The concept that we can do everything at once because "we're Americans, we can do anything, that's what we do in America, etc" was totally ridiculous.....and again, not an answer to the question.

That said, I was disappointed that Obama stepped on the format so much. I think he did it about twice as much as McCain did. At least, when he demanded to respond, it was for a good response....but it still irked me. Answer the questions, show respect for the moderator, the format, and your opponent.

[Snowflake]

That said, I was disappointed that Obama stepped on the format so much. I think he did it about twice as much as McCain did. At least, when he demanded to respond, it was for a good response....but it still irked me. Answer the questions, show respect for the moderator, the format, and your opponent.

CP, I agree with you. I found, to my eyes, neither candidate "won" neither one played the game as the rules were set out. I found that surprising since this is McCain's preferred mode, he looked far more uncomfortable than Obama did. But I was really irked that Obama took a long way around to answering the questions, when he did, since he is my candidate of choice. What part of answer the direct question do you not understand?

As well, Flippy, you read my mind, if I had been playing a drinking game, every time I heard "my friends" I would have been on the floor and gone within the first 45 minutes.

[scaeagles]

Zogby's pretty much alone in that. Every poll I've been watching has Obama holding or increasing his lead.

I think CBS showed it shrinking a bit after the VP debate.

But as Alex stated, the electoral map is HUGE for Obama right now. That's all that matters.

[Betty]

I wanted them to have a buzzer sound when their time up and have thier mikes cut out. That would have encouraged them to keep within their time limits. :argghh:

[Snowflake]

I wanted them to have a buzzer sound when their time up and have thier mikes cut out. That would have encouraged them to keep within their time limits. :argghh:

Well, for the next one, then. The light bulbs on the podium, right in front of the both of them, red, yellow, green. ;)

[Strangler Lewis]

Electric shock. Although McCain would probably keep talking through the shocks to prove how tough he was.

Maybe for every extra ten seconds a candidate keeps talking, the moderator drowns a puppy.

[mousepod]

I feel dumb. I had to look up "tiller".

[Snowflake]

I feel dumb. I had to look up "tiller".

Take away your pirate card! ;)

[Strangler Lewis]

I know he's used that phrase to show he's an old navy man, but I couldn't help thinking of the Moby Dick chapter "Hand on the Tiller," which in school we discussed as indicative of the somewhat homoerotic leanings of the enterprise.

[The Lovely Mrs. tod]

Well, for the next one, then. The light bulbs on the podium, right in front of the both of them, red, yellow, green. ;)
Maybe they can get a sound guy to bring a previously agreed upon theme song gradually up ...

[Alex]

I blame Tom Brokaw for the time violations. He should have interrupted them and moved them on when their time was up. Rather than whining afterwards about how they weren't following the rules.

Of course, I'm not sure why anybody would agree to moderate such an event in the first place. His only job was to read note cards out loud.

[Strangler Lewis]

I know he's used that phrase to show he's an old navy man, but I couldn't help thinking of the Moby Dick chapter "Hand on the Tiller," which in school we discussed as indicative of the somewhat homoerotic leanings of the enterprise.

Hmm. Looks like I was wrong about that chapter heading. Turns out there's nothing gay about "Moby Dick."

Well, maybe this:

"Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers' hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding, affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget; that at last I was continually squeezing their hands, and looking up into their eyes sentimentally; as much as to say, � Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness.


Would that I could keep squeezing that sperm for ever! For now, since by many prolonged, repeated experiences, I have perceived that in all cases man must eventually lower, or at least shift, his conceit of attainable felicity; not placing it anywhere in the intellect or the fancy; but in the wife, the heart, the bed, the table, the saddle, the fireside, the country; now that I have perceived all this, I am ready to squeeze case eternally. In thoughts of the visions of the night, I saw long rows of angels in paradise, each with his hands in a jar of spermaceti."

[JWBear]

Right. Context. When you wrote what I linked to, the context of your post was in reference to what McCain said (at least it was only a few posts after when MBC pointed it out). YOu didn't seem to care about the context in which McCain used it....which was complimentary to both parties.

To be clear, I have no problem with what Obama said.

I wasn't talking about the context of my quote. But.... Whatever.

Watch the Olbermann video I linked to. He states my stand on the use of 9/11 by Republicans perfectly.

[Tenigma]

Thank goodness no one said "Maverick".
I lost track of how many times "my friends", "look" (mostly by Obama) and "fundamental" were used.I completely agree, "maverick" would've had me doing the ol' :rolleyes:

If nothing else, the debate to me didn't seem to have any clear winner on answers. They both did OK, but for the most part it was a snoozer. There were a couple of interesting moments, though, including:

McCain trying to (I *think*) say jokingly, "That one." Except as with most of the rest f his "jokes" during the debates, it fell flat. Worse, because of his general body posture and his odd whisper-speak tone of voice, it actually gave the phrase a kind of cruel tone. I can just see the Penguin referring to Batman and saying, "And you know who tried to save the burning building? That one! Nyuck nyuck nyuck." I don't think that's what he wanted to convey.

...and the bloggers are all over that one. "How dare McCain use such a phrase! He can't even bring himself to say Obama's name!"

Whatever. I think it's blown out of proportion. I thought it was an attempt a humor that fell flat. Although I REALLY don't think McCain meant it in an insulting manner, unfortunately for McCain, I think it came off that way.

When asked by Brokaw whom they would consider appointing as Secretary of the Treasury, McCain's first answer was, "Not you, Tom." HUH?

Yet again, McCain was trying to be funny. And it didn't work. I think part of the problem was that he didn't say anything else in that sentence, and it came out kind of brusque, so whatever disarming quality a joke may have provided there, completely missed. Brokaw was kind of taken aback by it initially too, I think.

When Obama mentioned that McCain said accused him of being green behind the ears and just spouting off, and how McCain is somber and responsible, McCain laughs in the background and says thank you.

Unfortunately for McCain, I think Obama had that whole line memorized... including that pregnant pause (and there was NO way to know that McCain would say anything, although it was almost like McCain fell right into the trap), because in his next breath, Obama said McCain was the guy who sang "bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran," called for the annihilation of North Korea, and said "next up, Baghdad."

Kind of shut McCain up real fast, that line did. I thought that was Obama's big zinger (especially since McCain took the bait).

However, Sen. Obama, the line is NOT "bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran." You left off a few bombs there. Would've been better if you'd said it right.

[And while I'm at it, McCain may have mentioned that as some sort of inside joke or attempt at humor, but I heard Rachel Maddow later say that the McCain camp started using the Beach Boys' BarbaraAnn song in his stumpings afterwards, so it may have been a joke but they did run with it.]
Also, while it may sound good and seem directed at helping Main Street, but the government simply buying all the mortgages and repegging them at current value is simply a horrible idea. For either end of the political spectrum.

I'm not sure what McCain is thinking with that.I think McCain wanted to come out with something new and shiny, that he could offer to the audience as a take-away from the debate. I agree that just buying them up is terrible; it will simply encourage everyone who feels even remotely financially challenged to throw up their hands and ask for government assistance. It would be far easier to have government help these folks renegotiate their mortgages to get a better interest rate or help them get off of their adjustable-rate mortgages so it's not fluctuating so much.
I have to wonder why John McCain was so clearly uncomfortable with the format he pushed and pushed for. He even got in a dig about Obama not wanting to participate in Town Hall debates. Yet Obama was poised, comfortable and ultimately presidential. McCain was nervous, testy, petulant and obviously ill-at ease.
That's because the debate format from last night was unlike any town hall format McCain's ever had. That wasn't a town hall. Like Alex said, it was two parallel press conferences.

The town halls McCain does is much more free-wheeling. The moderator barely moderates at all. The audience last night were required to read off the question they had submitted; the regular ones don't have such restrictions. And most of all, in town halls the candidate gets to take more time answering the question, and then have a back-and-forth exchange with the person asking the question. The audience member can ask for clarification, disagree with the candidate, whatever. It has the potential to be a very interesting exchange.

This town hall didn't resemble anything like that. It was terrible.
"Steady hand at the tiller" is not a line he should have used, much less TWICE.Very ineffective for me because I didn't know what a tiller was. Since it's a rudder on a small boat, it makes sense since McCain is an old Navy guy, but I think it would've been far more effective for him to use the imagery of navigating a large carrier through dangerous waters or something. Instead, "tiller" made me think of a till plowing through a little vegetable garden. So I got this image in my head of an old man holding the till in an old garden. Plodding and old. Not good.
Of course, I'm not sure why anybody would agree to moderate such an event in the first place. [Brokaw's] only job was to read note cards out loud.
I thought it was amusing at the end when the two senators went to stand together to face the audience, and in so doing, blocked Brokaw's view of the teleprompter... and Brokaw had to ask them to move so he could read the monitor. lol.

[innerSpaceman]

Time Limits - -this was the first time i can recall that the "stop lights" were clearly visible on screen, since they were set up on the floor of a theater-in-the-round.

And Brokaw did not wait until the answers were over, he was constantly making noises and motions to the candidates to indicate that time was up ... but he did not go so far as to be rude enough to directly interrupt United States Senators. Sheesh.

Brokaw was easily the best moderator of the current batch so far. While he didn't chide the candidates for failing to answer the questions, he repeatedly did so for failing to follow the agreed rules of format, but did that without being completely improper and rude. He is not a man with a hook on vaudeville night.


It bugged me insanely when Obama refused to even remotely answer the question on one or two occassions. Just as Swiftboating is a now verb, Palining has quickly become one, too. He Palined more than once, and it was shameful.



That said, he kicked McCain's sorry old asz.

[innerSpaceman]

Turns out there's nothing gay about "Moby Dick."

I'll say. Yccck. We don't like it that much. ;)

[innerSpaceman]

And thanks, Tenigma, for that explanation of real town hall vs. faux town hall.

And so, the error still goes to McCain for approving faux town hall ... when it's just going to look to the TV viewer seeing their first McCain town hall wonder why he looks so unbelievably uncomfortable in his preferred format.

[tracilicious]

I felt it was appropriate for Obama to focus on correcting McCain's misstatements before he addressed the question at hand. If he had just let some of those comments sit and moved on, he'd have looked like a complete arsehole. I'm glad that he focused more on saying what he needed to than he did on flashing lights.

I thought Brokaw kicked a$$ as a moderator. McCains, "Not you, Tom," comment irked me to no end. Completely out of place and just totally rude.

McCain looked sooooo old!

I think in general Obama answered questions more specifically than McCain. Though his complete non-answering of the last question was beyond annoying. He could have pulled off something inspiring and smooth and he totally failed.

What were the bracelets they were wearing?

[Alex]

Watch the first debate tapes for explanation of the bracelets.

They are bracelets naming a soldier killed in Iraq. For McCain his was given by someone asking that he make sure the soldier not die in vain and this means keeping the war going to "victory." For Obama, his came from a mother asking that no other mother be put through what she was and this means getting out of the distraction that is Iraq and being more restrictive in the use of force and with much better defined targets.

[Barry Egan]

It looks like Brokaw had some work done.

[Tenigma]

What were the bracelets they were wearing?

They're memory bracelets for fallen soldiers from Iraq. You can find YouTube videos from the first presidential debate the other week where they talk about it. McCain's was given to him by a mom who asked that McCain "don't give up the cause" while Obama's was given to him by a mom who asked that "other moms don't have to experience the pain" of losing a child to soldiering.

[innerSpaceman]

Hahaha, is anybody besides me amused at Tenigma and Alex parroting each other?




Poor John. He tried to lighten things up with humor, and it failed every time. In fact, backfired badly ... even though I think it was clear his intent was to be funny, not mean. But he should have stopped after the second or third failed attempt at levity.


"Not you, Tom" was a really messed up thing to say out of the blue.

"That one" was so tone deaf, especially after insulting the intelligence of that other black guy who asked you a question. Net result: Racism, asshole.


There were about half a dozen other jokes that fell flat.

Don't quit your day job, John.


That, plus your attitude, plus your infirmaties on display, plus the sinister way you smile. Maybe those last two aren't your fault. And I don't doubt your attempts at humor were just that. But appearances are everything, personality is what matters to the voters.

Nixon won the debate against JFK for those listening on radio. Nowadays, John, everyone watches on TV.


You were Nixon.



BuBye.

[Moonliner]

You were Nixon.



BuBye.

Rather a pity nobody was watching....

[Tenigma]

Hahaha, is anybody besides me amused at Tenigma and Alex parroting each other?
Well you know what they say about crotchety old married couples.

I was doing a vanity spellcheck on my long post and by the time I posted the reply, I saw that he'd beat me to it. I was too lazy to go back and revise my post.

[Gemini Cricket]

I also saw more shots of Obama listening to McCain as he spoke. (Yeah, maybe he wasn't really listening but it gave the the appearance that he was.) McCain seemed distracted, sometimes didn't look at him.

The pacing back and forth kinda bugged me.

ETA: And I'd also like to add that I would be terrible in a debate like this. Much less it being televised and the whole world is watching... So I guess kudos are in order to all of them.

[innerSpaceman]

The pacing back and forth kinda bugged me.

I think this was intentional ... McCain kept walking into Obama's television shot while Obama was answering, forcing the cameramen to hastily switch to a far less flattering shot of Obama that didn't have McCain in it.

Once, twice - yeah, a mistake. No less than 12 times? Sorry, on purpose to get in the shot with your opponent and gain more air time or, maybe giving McCain too much smarts credit, forcing less flattering shots of your opponent.


Sorry, John. There can be no less flattering shots than you limping all over the place, cradling your useless limb of an arm, smiling like you're going to blow up the planet for the mad scientific fun of it, and wheezing all the while from the effort.


UGH. :mad:

[Ghoulish Delight]

A good point made (at fivethirtyeight.com) regarding McCain's slight gains in some polls over the last week:

Obama is showing somewhere around 6, 7, or 8% leads (11% on Gallup!). Over the last 20 years, the largest spread in a general election has been 8.5%. So Obama's pushing the bounds of how far he can swing the electorate. With that big of a lead, there's pretty much nowhere for him to go BUT down. There are certainly fewer and fewer undecideds to gain. So a point or two back in McCain's direction is not surprising, nor particularly significant.

[3894]

Popcorn for tonight's debate - check!
Water balloons - no need

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'll have to once again catch the highlights after the fact as I've got other plans for tonight. For my own blood pressure, that's probably a good thing.

[Morrigoon]

Dude, I forgot that was tonight. Good thing I turned down going to the movies!

Am I old now, because I'd rather see the debate than go see Jurassic Park in the theater?

[Strangler Lewis]

I'm assuming that you've seen Jurassic Park in the theater.

On the other hand, tonight's debate will be fresh and new.

[Moonliner]

I'll have to once again catch the highlights after the fact as I've got other plans for tonight. For my own blood pressure, that's probably a good thing.

Baseball or politics. It's a tough choice. Although the game tonight might not be much better for your blood pressure.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Actually I'll be playing pool (and watching the game)

[Morrigoon]

I'm assuming that you've seen Jurassic Park in the theater.

On the other hand, tonight's debate will be fresh and new.

That too. Jurassic Park was great, don't get me wrong, but I'm perfectly content to watch it on DVD in the future (at some point if I felt like Netflixing it)

And I haven't caught an ENTIRE debate live yet this election. Keep coming home late and stuff.

[Morrigoon]

Question: is this the last debate now?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yes, this is the last scheduled debate.

[BarTopDancer]

I'll have to once again catch the highlights after the fact as I've got other plans for tonight. For my own blood pressure, that's probably a good thing.

I fear my other plans may raise my blood pressure more than watching the debate.

[3894]

Am I old now, because I'd rather see the debate than go see Jurassic Park in the theater?

Not unless you also do the following: the phone rings on a Saturday night and you hope it's not for you.

[Gemini Cricket]

I read this thread as "Debates of all elk". On purpose. Just for fun.

[scaeagles]

In Northern AZ there are signs all over I-10 and I-17 to watch out for elk. I say we take the down. Damn the elk and the drivers that hit them! Are they worthy of our tax dollars to put signs up warning us of stupid elk that wander into traffic? I say we let them die and strengthen the elk gene pool.

That's about as much elk debating as I can think of.

[BarTopDancer]

In Northern AZ there are signs all over I-10 and I-17 to watch out for elk. I say we take the down. Damn the elk and the drivers that hit them! Are they worthy of our tax dollars to put signs up warning us of stupid elk that wander into traffic? I say we let them die and strengthen the elk gene pool.

That's about as much elk debating as I can think of.

On the 5 freeway near Camp Pendelton that says caution, possible dust clouds the next 11 miles. I've never seen a dust cloud and I want to know how they remain in the signs.

There are also signs that say no running across the freeway with flying children behind you.

[Gemini Cricket]

I've tried ground elk before and it's rather tasty.

Leo, I say tax the elk to pay for the signs.

:D

[Scrooge McSam]

I say tax the elk to pay for the signs.

Damn liberal

You're welcome, Leo

[Gemini Cricket]

"my friends"
"look..."
"fundamental"

[mousepod]

"ok? OK!?"

[Cadaverous Pallor]

McCain's been watching YouTube. Joe the Plumber, heh.

"I am not President Bush."

So far, it's pretty even, but I'd give McCain the edge so far. When he's not wandering around he looks less ancient.

[CoasterMatt]

I think John McCain's seen the "Sarah Palin is a *unt" t-shirt.

[CoasterMatt]

What a maroon - Does Madman McCain not understand how many years the design/licensing of a nuclear power plant takes?

[CoasterMatt]

I'd never be a good president, if some asshole talked to me like that across a table, I don't care if he's some kind of respected cripple, I'd make sure he couldn't use his mouth, either. :mad:

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'd never be a good president, if some asshole talked to me like that across a table, I don't care if he's some kind of respected cripple, I'd make sure he couldn't use his mouth, either. :mad:Agreed, he has not hit his mark, where he claimed that he was going to change his tone and be respectful. He's still condescending, he can't help it.

I think they're going to say McCain won....not that it can help him now.

[innerSpaceman]

Just because McCain wasn't the total failure he was in the first two debates does not mean he won. But if he wins by lowering the bar so much by his prior poor performances that, in the words of Queen Ifil, not throwing up is considered a win ... then, um, congratulations, Mr. McCain.

[Strangler Lewis]

I think Obama wiped the floor with him. Every potentially reasonable thing McCain said was undermined by stupid crap that his campaign fed him: redistribution of wealth, Joe the Plumber, ACORN, Ayers and that Ralph Kramden nervousness.

Hey, Joe, Senator Obama thinks your kid should spend less of his family time playing video games.

[scaeagles]

What a maroon - Does Madman McCain not understand how many years the design/licensing of a nuclear power plant takes?

On this specific point, I think this is the biggest part of McCain's plan....speeding up the process. Right now it is nearly impossible to build one and fast tracking is what McCain is pushing for.

It does not require a different design for each power plant. Of course, there will be variations, but the technology does not have to be reengineered.

For the debate overall....eh, I thought McCain made better points, but he made the points that would more appeal to me. Likewise for Obama supporters and points he made.

Regardless, though, I don't think McCain did anything to change the current circumstances his campaign is in. The polling companies that make their money having accurate result, being Zogby and Rasmussen, have it at 3.8 and 5 respectively. I think there may be a half point move for McCain simply because he did better than he had and perhaps gave a bit more confidence to his doubters. And, yeah, ISM, that's the beauty of lowered expectations I suppose.

I will still not be voting for either.

The only thing left is to see which side has the biggest October surprise come out from some source that they can each distance themselves from having been involved in putting out. I would suspect that since McCain has been around in the public spotlight so much longer that one about Obama has trhe potential to be far more damaging. You know each side has something they are holding until after this last debate.

[Gemini Cricket]

For the first part of the debate, McCain was solid. But then he just kinda went downhill. He sounded condescending at times to Obama. It didn't play well for him.

I liked the way Obama stayed cool all the way through.

I also think that Obama's answer on Roe v Wade was great.

McCain's sighing and some of his looks to Obama were annoying. To put up the mirror, it was annoying with Gore as well.

[scaeagles]

And I remember the first Bush - Kerrey debate when I felt like vomiting because of how aweful Bush was making faces at Kerrey. I mean, good lord, dude, you're the POTUS.

GC, I respect so much that you are using the "mirror" thing....I think the thing that bugs me most is the my party and/or candidate is always right and infallible attitude that seems to be so pervasive in politics.

[Gemini Cricket]

"look" - 11
"my friends" - 1
"fundamental" - 4

[Gemini Cricket]

GC, I respect so much that you are using the "mirror" thing....I think the thing that bugs me most is the my party and/or candidate is always right and infallible attitude that seems to be so pervasive in politics.
I'm going to call it Leo's Mirror.
:D
No, honestly, I'm all for being in someone else's shoes. I try to do it when my temper doesn't get in the way.

But at the same time, I must admit that I get confused when you use it some of the time. When someone brings up an instance where person A messed up and you point out that person B messed up too it doesn't diminish what person A did in the first place.
I don't know if I explained that well. And rereading it, I'm still not sure.

[scaeagles]

"look" - 11
"my friends" - 1
"fundamental" - 4


Pretty low counts, really. no one would have passed out during their drinking game at least.

[katiesue]

I just want to see what exactly McCain was busily scribbling on his notepad while giving Obama the one eyebrow raise.

[Gemini Cricket]

Pretty low counts, really. no one would have passed out during their drinking game at least.
Yes. I guess they caught on.
:D

Another thing I forgot to mention was that neither nailed their closing speech. It left me feeling kinda empty concerning both of them.

[scaeagles]

I think he was drawing a picture of a pony.

[Gemini Cricket]

I think he was drawing a picture of a pony.
Maybe a donkey?

:D

[mousepod]

from fivethirtyeight.com

SurveyUSA California debate-watchers: Obama 56, McCain 28.
Among California independents: Obama 55, McCain 29.
MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30.
CNN poll from the tee-vee: Obama 58, McCain 31.
CBS undecideds: Obama 53, McCain 22.

[scaeagles]

With Obama riding into Jerusalem on it.

RELAX!!!!! It's a joke.

[Gemini Cricket]

With Obama riding into Jerusalem on it.

RELAX!!!!! It's a joke.
Well, not to further the lovefest, but I found it funny.


mousepod - I seriously thought it was more even than that. I didn't feel like Obama had it in the bag... Dunno. Just my gut feeling at the time.

[innerSpaceman]

"Health" in finger quotes. What an azshat. I think that's gonna cost him. De womenz ain't gonna like that.

[JWBear]

I think he was drawing a picture of a pony.

Would it disturb you if I said that I love you for that remark. :D

[Gemini Cricket]

McCain said "Freddie Mae". I know that drag queen. She's fabulous.
:D

[wendybeth]

Pretty low counts, really. no one would have passed out during their drinking game at least.


I hope no one was playing the 'Drink a shot every time McCain blinks' game. :eek:


I was totally distracted by all that blinking, and then I read at the Huffington post that the count was over 3000 in a 90 minute period. Annoying as all hell.

[scaeagles]

Would it disturb you if I said that I love you for that remark. :D

No, but you, ISM , and MBC might have to have some sort of slap fight over me. :)

[scaeagles]

I was totally distracted by all that blinking, and then I read at the Huffington post that the count was over 3000 in a 90 minute period. Annoying as all hell.

While it may be annoying, anyone who feels the need to count them has issues.

[scaeagles]

Joe the plumber (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/joe-the-plumber.html) has made his thoughts on the Obama tax plan known in no uncertain terms.

[innerSpaceman]

The reason the polls always tilt toward Obama even when, as happened last night, McCain does reasonably well ... is that more people just plain like Obama's demeanor and what he has to say better.

A debate is won or lost on more than just "points."


McCain got angrier and testier as the debate wore on. He may have been more controlled this time, but his 'tude is obnoxious and viewers don't like it.

The section about their respective campaigns did McCain no good. His protestations to the contrary, public perception is that his campaign is far more negative than Obama's. And perception is everything.

Obama pwnzored him about Bill Ayers and ACORN, and McCain looked like a fool when he just wouldn't let it go.


But, yeah, most damaging (imo) was his belittling of women's health concerns when it comes to abortion. Can you see him putting men's health concerns in litlte finger quotes and dismissing that as some far left radical agenda? (And John, that "agenda" happens to be the agenda of the United States Supreme Court and the Law of the Land ... not some far left radical plot. You, Sir, are a DickWad and, may I add, a FvckTard to boot.)

[Strangler Lewis]

In fairness to McCain, his shorthand comment about women's health was reasonably legitimate and speaks to the attempts to expand the health exception to include mental health, emotional health, etc. The format did not permit an extended discussion, but he could have done a far better job of flagging the issue than he did.

So maybe Obama didn't wipe the floor with McCain. McCain did. He certainly kept sticking mop handles up his butt and handing them to Obama.

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm sorry, but f*ck Joe the Plumber.

Re: Obama
"And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance... Almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr," he said. Speaking to Fox News, Mr Wurzelbacher said Mr Obama's plan to raise taxes to redistribute money was "kind of a socialist viewpoint".
"Robin Hood stole from greedy rich people and redistributed it to the peasants, so to speak, so if he's calling us peasants, I kind of resent that," he said.
Uh, did Obama compare himself to Robin Hood? Or is this Joe's analogy? It sounds to me that Joe is calling himself a peasant and blaming Barack for it.
Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7673170.stm)

Not to mention that Joe isn't even in the income bracket Obama is talking about.
COURIC: Well, he supposedly will raise taxes only on people who make over $250,000 a year. Would you be in that category?

WURZELBACHER: Not right now at presently, but, you know, question, so he's going to do that now for people who make $250,000 a year. When's he going to decide that $100,000 is too much, you know? I mean, you're on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you're rich? And $100,000 and you're rich? I mean, where does it end? You know, that's - people got to ask that question. Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml)

[scaeagles]

I wish he'd put out some "men's" health concerns.

One reason helth care is so much more expensive is stuff that never used to be possible to treat. Now we have viagara being covered but no one wants their premiums to go up as more and more things are covered. That's but one example, but you get the idea.

[scaeagles]

GC, Joe the Plumber understands, as the WSJ pointed out in great detail, the Obama is LIEING about his tax cuts for the middle class. Also, the whoel Robin Hood thing is exactly what's going on. Obama is going to tax the wealthy more to give money to those who don't even pay federal income taxes. This is not even in question. You may not like the analogy, but it is certainly accurate. He wants to take more from the wealthy and give it to those who pay any federal income taxes.

[Gemini Cricket]

GC, Joe the Plumber understands, as the WSJ pointed out in great detail, the Obama is LIEING about his tax cuts for the middle class.
I'm sorry, Joe is sounding racist to me. And Joe is making up stuff and saying that Obama is calling him a peasant.

Joe's not making $250,000. So how does his situation apply to Obama's proposal? He's bringing up a hypothetical and then blasting Obama for it. "Well, he may lower that." We don't know if that's the course he's going to take on a tax cut that hasn't been implemented yet. At this point, you could say Obama will do a thousand things.

Joe is one man with one opinion whose head has been inflated for the world to see like a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon by McCain.

And if we want to talk about the WSJ, uh, which way does that paper lean? They say Obama is lying. Well I have to do is find one publication that says the opposite to counter your WSJ argument, Leo.

[scaeagles]

The WSJ link I posted lays out exactly what his plan entails. Either it does or it doesn't. If you dispute what it says, fine.

He sounds racist? Because he doesn't trust Obama when Obama is redefining what a tax cut even is? A tax cut means you pay less taxes. Obama now defines it as giving money to people who have paid no fdederal income taxes.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I thought Joe's concerns were about the business he wants to buy that makes more than $250,000 and would bump him into a new tax bracket.

I hate when Robin Hood is misconstrued. In the RH scenario, the taxes levied against the people are unfair and are not used to serve the people, but only pad the pockets of the royalty. Robin Hood doesn't steal from the rich - he takes back the poor's money from the rich and returns it to its rightful owners.

If Joe wanted to use RH as an analogy, he should have said that Obama was taxing unfairly.

[3894]

I thought Joe's concerns were about the business he wants to buy that makes more than $250,000 and would bump him into a new tax bracket.

That's my understanding, too. "Joe the Plumbing Contractor" would be a more accurate name but it sounds less everyman.

[Gemini Cricket]

He sounds racist? Because he doesn't trust Obama when Obama is redefining what a tax cut even is?
Oy. You missed my point.
See above.
Again. This is Joe the Plummer on Obama:
"And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance... Almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr," he said. I find that to be a underhanded, insulting comment directed at Obama.
If he didn't mean it that way, he needed to think about what it would sound like.
----------------------

On the lighter side of the debate: (SFW)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/1220631450981.jpg

[innerSpaceman]

Didn't finish reading, but have to ask ... scaeagles, just how is it that Obama's Fiat-passed tax plan (um, the president has no power to order any such thing) going to give money to people who pay no federal income taxes? Are they going to be sent checks? Or will cash payments come via secret service agents at their doors?


BTW, like it or not, wealth redistribution is a very popular idea. And cries of socialism of any kind ring rather hollow right now. It's clear to America we roll over and become a socialist nation when it suits the very rich who gamble recklessly with everybody else's money ... and now those same "everybody" want a little socialism of their own.

[Snowflake]

The WSJ link I posted lays out exactly what his plan entails. Either it does or it doesn't. If you dispute what it says, fine.

He sounds racist? Because he doesn't trust Obama when Obama is redefining what a tax cut even is? A tax cut means you pay less taxes. Obama now defines it as giving money to people who have paid no fdederal income taxes.

Jeez read the comments, yikes, Americans at their finest. :mad:

[Snowflake]

"And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance... Almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr," he said.




SFW and kinda disturbing, too.
753

[innerSpaceman]

He sounds racist? Because he doesn't trust Obama when Obama is redefining what a tax cut even is?

GC already pointed out what you apparently missed, but I'm repeating it because I'm astounded by what a tin ear you seem to have. Apparently, Joe the Plumber's ears are equally tin (or perhaps copper would be more appropriate). In any event, he clearly wasn't ready for the prime time suddenly foisted upon him, and did not take careful consideration to how his words would sound .... or, alternatively, he's an unabashed racist.

But, um, comparing Obama to a tap-dancing Sammy Davis, Jr. is a fracking racist remark.


Joe's an azshat for saying it ... and I'm rather shocked you simply glossed over it, scaeagles, and professed not to understand what was racist about Joe's remarks.

[Moonliner]

But, um, comparing Obama to a tap-dancing Sammy Davis, Jr. is a fracking racist remark.



How many famous tap dancers can you name off the top of your head?

Who comes to mind first?

How in the hell is that racist?

[innerSpaceman]

Joe's not making $250,000. So how does his situation apply to Obama's proposal? He's bringing up a hypothetical and then blasting Obama for it.

But don't forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor ... and that is why they will follow us, to the right, ever to the right, never to the left, forever to the right.


In other words, most people are fracking idiots ... and hence the unfathomable popularity of conservativism.

[innerSpaceman]

How many famous tap dancers can you name off the top of your head?

Who comes to mind first?

Yeah, whatdya know? -- all the ones I think of are black. Maybe I betta shut the fvck up so's I don't come off like a RACIST when making personal comparisons to the first black presidential candidate.

[JWBear]

Fred Astaire, Ginger Rodgers...

[Moonliner]

Yeah, whatdya know? -- all the ones I think of are black. Maybe I betta shut the fvck up so's I don't come off like a RACIST when making personal comparisons to the first black presidential candidate.

You are letting color dictate your speech. Because Sammy was black you think he cannot be compared to Obama. Joe was color blind and just compaired a tap dancing politician to a real tap dancer. So who's the racist here?

[Snowflake]

How many famous tap dancers can you name off the top of your head?

Who comes to mind first?

How in the hell is that racist?

Gents
Fred Astaire
Gene Kelly
The Nicholas Brothers

Ladies
Ann Miller
Ruby Keeler
Ginger Rogers

[3894]

You are letting color dictate your speech. Because Sammy was black you think he cannot be compared to Obama. Joe was color blind and just compaired a tap dancing politician to a real tap dancer. So who's the racist here?

Joe the Plumbing Contractor. The implication was that Sen. Obama shucks and jives.

Re: the distraction called Joe the Plumbing Contractor. Joe's income over $250,000 would be taxed at 39%, rather than the current 36%. So if Joe the Plumber makes $300,000, his tax bill goes up $1,500. That's $125 a month.

My cell phone bill is more than that. Joe is a Kool-Aid-drinking Republican plant. Old-style Karl Rove politics and so terribly, terribly tired.

[JWBear]

How could I have forgotten gene Kelly?!

[3894]

Shoot, I was right about Joe the Plumbing Contractor being a Republican plant.

Source (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/02217/845/591/632001)

[Moonliner]

Joe the Plumbing Contractor. The implication was that Sen. Obama shucks and jives.

Re: the distraction called Joe the Plumbing Contractor. Joe's income over $250,000 would be taxed at 39%, rather than the current 36%. So if Joe the Plumber makes $300,000, his tax bill goes up $1,500. That's $125 a month.

My cell phone bill is more than that. Joe is a Kool-Aid-drinking Republican plant. Old-style Karl Rove politics and so terribly, terribly tired.

A plant? Oh good grief. He's a real American with real views and real concerns. Extra taxes on any group is going to cause concern within that group or in this case, someone who is working hard to be in that group.

Is it really necessary to vilify anyone that opposes your master plans?

[Moonliner]

Shoot, I was right about Joe the Plumbing Contractor being a Republican plant.

Source (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/02217/845/591/632001)



Is it really necessary to vilify anyone that opposes your master plans?

Scratch that last line of mine. You answered the question before I could even pose it.

[3894]

Is it really necessary to vilify anyone that opposes your master plans?

That's pretty much the basic question we're all asking the McCain campaign.

[Moonliner]

That's pretty much the basic question we're all asking the McCain campaign.

Great, so because Bush and McCain both play the game that way, it's OK for Obama?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Frankly I was hoping for better. I guess I should look into getting a seeing eye dog soon.

[Strangler Lewis]

How many famous tap dancers can you name off the top of your head?

Who comes to mind first?

How in the hell is that racist?

First? Obviously the white Australians from "Tap Dogs." Cagney, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire.

Actually, probably Savion Glover, Gregory Hines and the Nicholas Brothers.

The problem with the Sammy Davis, Jr. comment is that when I think of him tap dancing I think of him as a child performer dancing frantically to please white people. Perhaps not what Joe the Plumber had in mind, but . . . perhaps it is.

[Gemini Cricket]

Like I said, whether he meant for it to sound racist or not, it definitely played that way. I think that's poor judgment on Mr. Wurzelbacher's part. You're talking to Katie Couric, millions of people just heard your name 26 times in a presidential debate... I'm thinking I'd be watching what I say.
I'm sorry, Moonie, but I believe his comment sounded completely racist.

[Moonliner]

Like I said, whether he meant for it to sound racist or not, it definitely played that way. I think that's poor judgment on Mr. Wurzelbacher's part. You're talking to Katie Couric, millions of people just heard your name 26 times in a presidential debate... I'm thinking I'd be watching what I say.
I'm sorry, Moonie, but I believe his comment sounded completely racist.

Sorry, all I see here is fear.

You all have an agenda you want to achieve, and "Joe" is seen as a threat to that agenda. Therefore he must be destroyed. His motives questioned, his character trashed. The ends justify the means. Truth is, well truth is just not that important. Perception is king.


Note you can replace "Joe" with: "Charles H. Keating", "William Ayers", "Rev. Wright", "Cindy Hensley", "AIG" or a dozen other names. Some bad some not but all being used as pawns to gain an advantage. The game remains the same.

[Gemini Cricket]

Joe is no victim here. Joe has been stumping for McCain by saying things like "Oh, I won't say who I'm voting for, but I'm against Socialism". Joe is being used by both sides. Agendas all around...
In the end, the publicity will help his business. You can't have a better ad than what happened last night and all day today.

[innerSpaceman]

Unfortunately we don't have any black swankers here to comment. In fact, this whole place is suspiciously lacking in members of color.

So just go ahead and compare the next black person you speak with to Sammy Davis, Jr. and tap-dancing, and see if it's taken kindly.




Hmm, seems like the only minorities represented on the LoT are queers and jews ... and I'm both. So I can tell you outright that any comparison to a famous fag and things gays used to have to do to get in good with straights, or to a famous jew and things jews used to have to do to get in good with gentiles, and I would sure as shuck and jive take offense at it.



But don't take my word for it, Moonliner ... go and make that Sammy Davis tap-dancing crack to the next black man you encounter. ;)

[scaeagles]

Joe's an azshat for saying it ... and I'm rather shocked you simply glossed over it, scaeagles, and professed not to understand what was racist about Joe's remarks.

I completely missed that. My bad....I would agree that is certainly racist in the overtones.

[Moonliner]

Unfortunately we don't have any black swankers here to comment. In fact, this whole place is suspiciously lacking in members of color.

So just go ahead and compare the next black person you speak with to Sammy Davis, Jr. and tap-dancing, and see if it's taken kindly.




Hmm, seems like the only minorities represented on the LoT are queers and jews ... and I'm both. So I can tell you outright that any comparison to a famous fag and things gays used to have to do to get in good with straights, or to a famous jew and things jews used to have to do to get in good with gentiles, and I would sure as shuck and jive take offense at it.



But don't take my word for it, Moonliner ... go and make that Sammy Davis tap-dancing crack to the next black man you encounter. ;)

No, I see your point of view.

I see a tap dancing politician (in Joe's opinion) compared to a world class tap dancer.

What you see is a comment about race, oppression and hatred.

I guess we all bring our preconceived notions to the world we see around us.

[innerSpaceman]

I guess so. And I can see the harmlessness and true point of Joe's statement that has nothing to do with racism.

But since I can also see how it can be also be taken poorly as a racist remark, I might think twice before I said it on national TV.

I appreciate Joe had only 1 night's warning of glory-filled dream sleep before being thrust onto the national stage. But if he had a clue about recent history and Katie Couric (cough*Palin*cough) he might have still been a tad more carful about his words.

[Gemini Cricket]

Hmm, seems like the only minorities represented on the LoT are queers and jews ... and I'm both.

There are Asian Americans on this board. According to my family I could be anywhere from a 1/4 to 1/2 Chinese.
And there's a Hawaiian on this board. That's me. I have 1/4 Hawaiian.
:)

[scaeagles]

I am a republican. Around here, certainly a minority!

[Morrigoon]

I thought Joe's concerns were about the business he wants to buy that makes more than $250,000 and would bump him into a new tax bracket.

And all this because Joe's too stupid to incorporate his business.

[Morrigoon]

Oooh, here's a gem from this interview with Joe the Plumbing Contractor (http://familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1465/pub_detail.asp):

PM: Do you fear this is the possibility of America turning more down the socialist road if Obama does become elected and if he is able to implement these policies?

JW: Very much so. You start giving people stuff, and then they start expecting it – and that scares me. A lot of people expect it now. They get upset when their check’s late, they get upset when they don’t get as many benefits as they used to, or when different government agencies are cut or spending is cut here and there for whatever reason – people get upset at that. And that’s because they’re used to getting it and they want more.

Okay, so there are parts of that I agree with, but OMFG call the authorities, the populace gets upset when their checks are late! Oh the horror! The arrogance! They feel "entitled" to the money they earned through their labor, can you imagine?

*snark*

[scaeagles]

He was talking about the government giving people money, not about money they've made through working. Unless I'm reading that completely wrong.

You start giving people stuff, and then they start expecting it

[Betty]

Okay, so there are parts of that I agree with, but OMFG call the authorities, the populace gets upset when their checks are late! Oh the horror! The arrogance! They feel "entitled" to the money they earned through their labor, can you imagine?

*snark*

Must be an indication of how he runs his business I'm thinking. *also snarky*

[Strangler Lewis]

I think he's talking about welfare checks.

[BarTopDancer]

I agree with Leo. People were flipping out when the "tax rebate" checks didn't come exactly as scheduled.

[Morrigoon]

Ah, I thought he meant his employees, because his next comment was about benefits.

[tracilicious]

Even if it is welfare, I'm guessing those people really need that money, and thus it being late could be a really big deal to them.

[Morrigoon]

Of course it is. Landlords and utilities like to be paid on time too.

[JWBear]

Sorry, all I see here is fear.

You all have an agenda you want to achieve, and "Joe" is seen as a threat to that agenda. Therefore he must be destroyed. His motives questioned, his character trashed. The ends justify the means. Truth is, well truth is just not that important. Perception is king.


Note you can replace "Joe" with: "Charles H. Keating", "William Ayers", "Rev. Wright", "Cindy Hensley", "AIG" or a dozen other names. Some bad some not but all being used as pawns to gain an advantage. The game remains the same.

The Republicans were the ones who used him for their own agenda. We're just exposing it for what it is.

Even if it is welfare, I'm guessing those people really need that money, and thus it being late could be a really big deal to them.

It is... Trust me on that one.

[Tom]

Sorry to join the Joe the Plumber pile-on, but I found these amusing. Apparently Joe is not actually licensed as a plumber (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJsPHiQlgYvAsrHz9mvHJlezQJLwD93RONUO0) and doesn't like paying old taxes any more than he does new ones - Ohio filed a lien (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs&refer=home) against him last year for unpaid taxes.

[Strangler Lewis]

Sorry to join the Joe the Plumber pile-on, but I found these amusing. Apparently Joe is not actually licensed as a plumber (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJsPHiQlgYvAsrHz9mvHJlezQJLwD93RONUO0) and doesn't like paying old taxes any more than he does new ones - Ohio filed a lien (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs&refer=home) against him last year for unpaid taxes.

There's only one place for a guy like that.

The vice presidency.

[innerSpaceman]

I just hope I'm not making too much of a fool of myself.
Not as much as your'e making one of John McCain.


Heheh, Joe the Unlicensed Plumber. Has a nice ring!



In all fairness, the tax lien is on a Samuel Wurzelbacher, not Joe. Seems there's a lot of Wurzelbachers in that neck of the woods, some of them related to McCain's old buddy, Charles Keating. What a small world. :)

[Scrooge McSam]

There's only one place for a guy like that.

The vice presidency.

Why not? He's given more interviews than Palin already.

[Gemini Cricket]

In all fairness, the tax lien is on a Samuel Wurzelbacher, not Joe. Seems there's a lot of Wurzelbachers in that neck of the woods, some of them related to McCain's old buddy, Charles Keating. What a small world. :)
I thought his full name was Samuel J. Wurzelbacher?

[innerSpaceman]

Could be.


I hope so. Because it would demonstrate how continually poor McCain's vetting process has been. First Palin, whom the rightwing loves despite her daughter's teenage pregnancy that the McCain folks somehow missed (for starters) ... now Joe the Plumber with tax complaints who's not a licensed plumber and who doesn't pay his taxes.


The perfect guy to mention 26 times!

[Strangler Lewis]

Could be.

Joe the Plumber with tax complaints who's not a licensed plumber and who doesn't pay his taxes.


Life happens.