Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegience?

[Betty]

Traipsing along the internet in a click on this and that sort of way, I came upon a youtube video about a girl that refused to stand for the pledge in school. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvS_7GioJgk)

She was physically forced to stand, suspended, sent to principal's office, etc.
She did this every day...

Checking out various other youtube video's on this guys page, I'm inclined to think we have differing viewpoints on many things. But this one I can't help but agree with.

On the one hand, it seems very disrespectful or unpatriotic to not recite the pledge. I've found that as an adult, especially in very large groups, saying the pledge can be a strangely emotional experience.

On the other hand, if she doesn't get up, others might not get up. What if they're just "lazy, dumb teenagers" and none of them get up and make a mockery of the pledge?

Does that matter?

I don't think they should have physically forced her to stand for the pledge. They made it into such a big deal that it really blew it way out of proportion and by doing so, made others sympathetic to her beliefs.

They could have have a learning experience by discussing the pledge, her viewpoints, it's history and had a great debate about it.

Back to the strangely emotional experience I've sometimes had when saying the pledge with others - It's interesting isn't it? You say it in school and don't give it much thought. At least I never did. Just recited the words. But as an adult, you pledge that your on this country's side, all together - indivisible - and then - with liberty and justice for ALL.

Is it true? Or is it just an altruistic view that's really nice but isn't the way our country actually works. I think what makes my heart swell like that is all those people hoping for the same as one voice. It's just wishful thinking though - I know that many if not most just recite it like I did in elementary school.

Things to ponder on a rainy Monday afternoon.

[€uroMeinke]

I like the experience of communal chanting - not much of a fan for the pledge though - especially for children who have little understanding for what it means.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I would have less of an issue with the Pledge without the "under god" in it - that is to say, as it was originally written. Which is its own huge debate.

It should have been a classroom discussion, about why to say the Pledge, its history, etc. Not just punishment.

Personally, I am required by an organization where I volunteer to say the Pledge at our meetings. I do omit the "under god" part, or say "under the gods" depending on my mood. I don't mind pledging allegiance to my country, as represented by the flag. I do mind pledging allegiance to a god in which I don't believe.

[lashbear]

Maybe she could say the Lemon Pledge instead.

...Although, If I were an American, I would be on the side of "Yes she should say the pledge"

Patriotism is one thing that the USA has aplenty that other countries (including my own) do not. It is one of the things that keeps your country great and powerful, do not lose it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Patriotism is one thing that the USA has aplenty that other countries (including my own) do not. It is one of the things that keeps your country great and powerful, do not lose it.Yeah, look at the great things it did for Germany. And Japan.

[scaeagles]

Patriotism is a wonderful thing. Forced patriotism isn't. I think that if a minor in school, with parental support (they are a minor after all), does not wish to say the pledge they should not have to.

Germany had a charismatic leader who was viewed as practically infallible and moved toward nationalization of everything, it wasn't just patriotism. Japan had an emporer viewed as a God. Patriotism in and of itself is not a bad thing.

I do stop short, though, at those who have attempted to stop others from saying the pledge because it then makes their baby who doesn't feel like an outcast. Well, to stand up for what you believe in when it isn't popular DOES often make you feel like an outcast. It's part of it and you have to live with it if you choose to stand up for something unpopular.

[Alex]

One of the great things the Jehovah's Witnesses did for this country was, I thought, settling this issue back in 1943 in an example of one of the Supreme Courts fastest reversals of itself and was part of the key bits of Supreme Court case law that have established the modern understanding of the First Amendment.

In 1940 they issued a ruling that creating just the communal civic pride was sufficient interest for state schools to require recitation of the pledge of allegiance.

That ruling was viewed by many as official sanction of the idea that Jehovah's Witnesses were un-American and traitorous. In the next two years thousands of children were expelled from schools and there were a couple thousand recorded cases of violence against Jehovah's Witnesses (in Kennebunkport, Maine, for example, the sheriff assisted in burning down a Kingdom Hall though he thoughtfully assisted in evacuating it first).

In 1943 the Court reversed itself and ruled that the state could not force recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance. And as someone who hasn't said it since I was 8 years old (for religious reasons then and now because I view it as one of the great piece of poppycock we've ever come up with as a nation) I'm quite glad for that.

From the video, though, I'm not clear on if she was simply forced to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance or forced to stand and say it. It is hard to believe that there is a school in the country that doesn't know about West Virginia SBE v. Barnette so I lean towards assuming it was just standing. I don't know if that has been settled completely yet but I believe all of the lower court rulings that have ever been handed down have ruled that Barnette would extend to any requirements of participation, even standing.

[bewitched]

All I have to say is that if any school or organization tried to (or actually did) force my child to stand or to stand and participate in the pledge, they'd have some splainin' to do.

And Alex, I'm sure there are many schools in the country that are unaware of West Virginia SBE v. Barnette. Hell, school districts across the country still try to ban books, Board of Education v. Pico notwithstanding.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'm very torn about the pledge. Betty likes it more as an adult, and I like it less. I've attended meetings at the City, both large and small, and they include the pledge. Seeing these adults make such a simplistic statement comes off as creepy to me. I can't promise absolute allegiance to anything, because things change. The last 8 years were enough to teach me that. IMHO, part of being an adult is understanding that precious little is black and white.

Even so - I do like the concept of patriotism, and I'm a loyal type of person. I had school spirit even though I was an outcast geek and had no reason to. I do think America as a concept is awesome and has done great things. When you're 10 years old, it's hard to understand the nuances of allegiance and loyalty. I am not opposed to using the pledge as a tool to instill this sort of "we are one group" concept, but somehow, I think as adults we need to have better ways to express it. Perhaps if the wording were changed? (Obviously the Under God part needs to go.)

Hmm, how would I write the pledge...

[blueerica]

One of the great things the Jehovah's Witnesses did for this country was...

Agree.

[wendybeth]

Here's something for the Quotes: I agree with Scaeagles. No one should be forced to say the Pledge, and no one should have to say it in school without at least a rudimentary understanding of what it is and means. At the same time, I don't think anyone should be forced to not participate. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but should my kid decide she does I would support her taking a stand, provided she knows it might be a lonely one.

[lashbear]

Here's something for the Quotes: I agree with Scaeagles.
Done ! (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/quotes.php?do=view&quoteid=1407)

[Betty]

I wouldn't say I like the pledge more as an adult - I would say it means something to me now instead of just reciting the words.

I liked E's description of "communal chanting" actually. That was a very interesting way to word it that really made sense to me.

I also agree on the "under god" part of the pledge. I doubt it will ever happen though for sort of the same reason it was put in there. "Those godless (insert whichever group you prefer) will be the death of us all" type of thought that would make it political suicide for any major policital party to get behind it.

[Alex]

Well, the Pledge of Allegiance was written specifically as something for children to say which is part of why I find it creepy for adults to puppet it. But yes, I generally find simple mindless displays of patriotism to be a distasteful thing (and so do most of us which is why when patriotism is expressed in other countries we generally refer to it with the more loaded term "nationalism").

It is too bad, though, that we switched to the hand over the heart instead of the original salute that went with it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pledge_salue.jpg

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Wait, really?? They really saluted like that??

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance), which led me to the Bellamy salute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute):

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.” At the words, “to my Flag,” the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.

Even without the Nazi connotation it still seems a little creepier...but only because I didn't grow up with it I guess.

ETA - the original pledge was written by a Socialist. Heh.

[Alex]

Wait, really?? They really saluted like that??

I know! Those stupid Nazis ruined everything!

[BarTopDancer]

Here's something for the Quotes: I agree with Scaeagles. No one should be forced to say the Pledge, and no one should have to say it in school without at least a rudimentary understanding of what it is and means. At the same time, I don't think anyone should be forced to not participate. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but should my kid decide she does I would support her taking a stand, provided she knows it might be a lonely one.

I agree.

Patriotism is a great thing; however forced, blind patriotism is extremely dangerous, and there is a fine line between the two.

The Pledge and National Anthem means more to me as an adult then they ever did as a kid.

[Kevy Baby]

Yes

[Betty]

Yes

Are you sure?

[Pirate Bill]

They could have have a learning experience by discussing the pledge, her viewpoints, it's history and had a great debate about it.

I totally agree.

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything. It sounds like the teachers involved panicked and didn't deal with it appropriately. By having an open class discussion the teacher would have had the opportunity to explore the meaning behind the pledge. Giving the student an opportunity to give her point of view is not something to be feared either. If she "converts" other students to her cause then they have made that decision with more information instead of just in rebellion to unjust authority.

[scaeagles]

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything.

As I prepare to do my taxes I couldn't agree more!

[Alex]

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything.

That's the difficultly. In compulsory education the opposite is true. Students are forced to participate in all kinds of things. And it isn't surprising that individual teachers lose track of the line (I stand by my assumption that there aren't many schools, at the administrative level, that aren't aware of the SC rulings on this) separating what can be forced from that which can't.

And that is what I assume happened here from what was described in the video. It wasn't made clear very well whether she was forced to recite or to simply stand while the other students did so (the stand question is much less settled). Then the school backed off and she was allowed to do what she wanted.

I would assume that the school administration (at the district level probably) eventually got enough wind of it all to say "knock it off" to the teacher/principal.

Plus, knowing how overly dramatic my fellow high school students behaved in the face of administrative slights (both perceived and real), I wouldn't be surprised that the events were significantly exaggerated in this student's telling of things.

[Not Afraid]

I should never have been forced to participate in PE.

[cirquelover]

I hated PE and trying to climb that stupid rope to the top of the gym. They might as well have asked me to climb MT Everest! I prefered High School PE, at least then I could do conditioning class, instead of the other dumb options.

[Alex]

Surprisingly, I loved PE (surprising because I avoided pretty much every non history, not science class I could). Though I've never in my life seen a school gym with a rope climb other than on TV or in movies. I suffered the semi-annual embarrassment of not being able to do a single pull-up but loved the rest of it.

[scaeagles]

Such is the problem with government run schools. In private schools, while there are certain educational requirements that must be meant in terms of math, history, language (all of which are fine), the compulsory stuff is decided by the board of directors (at least where my kids go), and if we don't like it, we can leave. There is a sort of customer satisfaction that comes into play.

And pullups are a scam, Alex. I doubt many NFL linemen can do a single pull up. That's all about body type. Bigger people can rarely do them. I can bench well over my weight but can't do pullups.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Though I've never in my life seen a school gym with a rope climb other than on TV or in movies. My jr. high did, but they were rarely used. 99% of the time they were tied up out of reach. We did, however, have metal climbing poles outside which served essentially the same purpose. I was always good at that, as well as pullups. And situps. The only thing I really hated in PE was the dreaded sit-and-reach. I've always been painfully inflexible.

[mousepod]

We had the rope. I don't think I ever made it more than a couple of feet. Horrible.

As far as the Pledge goes, it ranks a big "whatever" from me. We did it. Nobody ever explained what it meant. There was no other patriotic "must-dos". I think it was just a way for teachers to get our attention at the beginning of class.

As an adult, I understand the meaning. But I've probably been in less than a dozen situations as an adult where the Pledge was recited.

[Alex]

Yeah, I've been trying to think of the last time I was in a situation where it was done. The only time since college I can think of is when I attended the citizenship ceremony of a friend a few years ago.

Much more common, of course, would be the national anthem and growing up the general rule (as a JW) was that if everybody was singing to stand respectfully and remain silent (not putting hand over heart) and if everybody was just standing to remain seated and respectfully silent.

Now I stand because of peer pressure (and because while it is unlikely why risk a confrontation with some drunk asshole at a baseball game) but I do not put my hand over my heart and do not sing.

[BarTopDancer]

Yeah, I've been trying to think of the last time I was in a situation where it was done. The only time since college I can think of is when I attended the citizenship ceremony of a friend a few years ago.

Much more common, of course, would be the national anthem and growing up the general rule (as a JW) was that if everybody was singing to stand respectfully and remain silent (not putting hand over heart) and if everybody was just standing to remain seated and respectfully silent.

Now I stand because of peer pressure (and because while it is unlikely why risk a confrontation with some drunk asshole at a baseball game) but I do not put my hand over my heart and do not sing.

I was thinking about the last time I said the pledge, and I'm pretty sure it was at my mom's citizenship ceremony 12 years ago. Of course I hear the National Anthem several times a week. Sometimes I sing, sometimes I don't. It's never as powerful as when the entire venue is singing during the playoffs (which I doubt we'll be seeing this year). That includes when the Marines show up to present colors and sing.

[innerSpaceman]

Hmm, I can't bench anywhere near my own weight, but I could always do pull-ups. And, back in those PE days, I could always climb the rope all the way to the top.

But I hated PE and ditched it all the time. It was rarely about rope climing, pull-ups or other feats of pure physical fitness, but instead was all about competitive sports ... which I sucked at and loathed.

Did I loathe sports because I sucked at them, or suck at them because I loathed them? Chicken or egg ... or just plain fag who sucked at sports because I had different sucking preferences??


Oh, anyway, if I would have thought for two seconds about pledging my allegiance to the flag, I would have quit reciting the progaganda pledge in the first grade. I think we did it through 5th or 6th. My political awakening came right around that time anyway.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm cool with a certain amount of patriotic indoctrination in as much as it leds to civic pride and shared ethos. However it can be, and usually is, taken too far, given too much weight. And the pledge particularly grates on me due to its near-idolatry. As if it weren't bad enough to be brainwashed into thinking that the US is absolutely perfectly right and the greatest of all possible nations, we've also got to bow to a piece of cloth? No thanks.

I don't know how I'd approach it with my own kid if and when the time comes. Seeing as they wouldn't be able to understand either side of the argument, I'd probably just pretty much let things be. I don't think it did me any irreparable harm to recite it, so whatever. When they kid is aware enough to start asking their own questions about it, that's when I'll address it.

[Kevy Baby]

Are you sure?
No

[Promo-Man]

Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance?

No, no one should be forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance should someone stand when others are saying the Pledge, I think they should out of respect but should not be forced to do so.

When I was in the second grade back in the 50’s we had a classmate who did not say the Pledge of Allegiance on religious grounds, she did stand to show respect and at the start of the school year our teacher made a brief statement that because we celebrated religious freedom in the United States some religions did not believe in the pledges of allegiance.
I do believe that if my classmate had chosen not to stand that no one would have complained.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't know how I'd approach it with my own kid if and when the time comes. Seeing as they wouldn't be able to understand either side of the argument, I'd probably just pretty much let things be. I don't think it did me any irreparable harm to recite it, so whatever. When they kid is aware enough to start asking their own questions about it, that's when I'll address it.
Which, btw, segues into the "under God" issue. I rather detested the dirtbag attention grabber who used their kid as a pawn that eventually lead to the issue appearing in courts in the most recent volley. However, once in the courts, I am absolutely an unwaveringly of the opinion that the phrase should be removed. I'm not going to make a stink about it, I'm not going to deman restitution and cry religious subjugation over it being there. But if the issue is raised and it gets to the point of a Constitutional decision, I cannot fathom any rational argument that doesn't have it constituting violation of establishment.

[bewitched]

I don't know how I'd approach it with my own kid if and when the time comes. Seeing as they wouldn't be able to understand either side of the argument, I'd probably just pretty much let things be. I don't think it did me any irreparable harm to recite it, so whatever. When they kid is aware enough to start asking their own questions about it, that's when I'll address it.

This is the approach I take with Olivia. If and when she understands it enough to want to rebel against it, I'll support her in her decision. Interestingly, she knows I'm agnostic and considers herself one for all intents and purposes (i.e. doesn't believe in "God" insomuch as what she understands "God" to be). She chose, on her own, to pause rather than say "under God" when she recites the pledge each morning. (She does the same thing during the mention of "God" in the Girl Scout pledge* and the YMCA pledge-- where she plays basketball.)


*Unlike the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts are okay with this omission.

[Strangler Lewis]

Yes, there is much to rebel against in the pledge. One can imagine disaffected southerners chafing against the "one nation" and "liberty and justice for all" parts.

We would do well to replace the pledge with scouting oaths, since they tend to focus on service and not merely loyalty. However, it shouldn't be too hard to teach kids that the pledge is aspirational and not merely a statement of entitlement.

[Kevy Baby]

No

[Betty]

No

Are you sure?

[Pirate Bill]

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything.

As I prepare to do my taxes I couldn't agree more!

In compulsory education the opposite is true. Students are forced to participate in all kinds of things.

And I now realize that in my rush I made an overly general statement.

[Kevy Baby]

Are you sure?Maybe

[Chernabog]

Your manager says that children should SHUT UP!

[bewitched]

Yes, there is much to rebel against in the pledge. One can imagine disaffected southerners chafing against the "one nation" and "liberty and justice for all" parts.


Hmmm, there is the whole "God" thing; especially distasteful when you don't believe in God and your pledge to a nation "under God" is all but compulsory. And that whole pledging an oath of allegiance. We find oaths of allegiances and citizenship papers to be distasteful in many other nations and yet we don't recognize the distastefulness of our own "oath" because ours is not strictly compulsory. I will grant you that the Pledge is not required by our government but schools have often made it compulsory. And even in schools where it is not compulsory, peer pressure (and approval/disapproval from adults) is a strong force in compelling conformity.


We would do well to replace the pledge with scouting oaths, since they tend to focus on service and not merely loyalty. However, it shouldn't be too hard to teach kids that the pledge is aspirational and not merely a statement of entitlement.

I agree that a focus on service might be less distasteful (depending upon what is meant by service) than loyalty. Nonetheless, even the GS oath pledges service to God and country. The BS oath requires one to pledge to do their "duty towards God" and the YMCA oath requires you to state that you "pledge before God...." I would not be thrilled with any one of these being substituted as a national oath.

In any case, if dd decides at any point that she doesn't want to recite the Pledge, for whatever reason, I will support that. I would rather her respectfully protest a status quo with which she doesn't agree than to continue to engage in a recitation of an oath because peer pressure and her elders deem it a requirement.

Personally, "under God" aside, I remember the Pledge making me feel proud as a child...but that was also a time when I bought the fiction that we were a nation "chosen" by God and therefore morally superior to all other nations. As an adult, I could take it or leave it. I respectfully stand, but don't recite the Pledge. There's no big reason that I can pinpoint why I felt the need to stop (surely my refutation of the existence of God had something to do with it), but I do know that the stopping has never affected nor reflected my proudness (is that a word?) of or disappointment in our nation.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I pledge dedication to the ideals of the United States of America: Liberty, justice, and peace for all people.





It's just a first draft - what do you think?

[bewitched]

I pledge dedication to the ideals of the United States of America: Liberty, justice, and peace for all people.





It's just a first draft - what do you think?

:snap:

[BarTopDancer]

I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republic for which it stands
One nation, indivisible
With liberty and justice for all

--------

When we are truly indivisible and have liberty and justice for all (and not those who are straight, white and male)....

[Kevy Baby]

Maybe

[bewitched]

When I was a kid I always wondered why our nation was invisible.

[lashbear]

Maybe
Are you sure?

[Strangler Lewis]

The whole breathing pattern changes if you leave out "under God." It's very uncomfortable. I don't know how people managed before it was put in.

Obviously, "under God" doesn't belong in the pledge or "God Save The Queen" or any of it. And "My Country 'Tis Of Thee" is full of pathetic fallacies because a country isn't a person and freedom can't ring.

If somebody wants to stand politely and not say some or all of the pledge, I'd have no problem with it. But if, say, I had a high school kid who wanted to make a big show of sitting down or turning his back during the pledge because America is, like, fascist, I would not beam with pride over that, except that it would give me an excuse to cut off all car contributions because Gandhi would walk.

Still, that is why we should have things like the pledge in school: to give kids to think about and overreact against so that they can eventually find their way towards the sacred, imaginary middle.

[bewitched]

But if, say, I had a high school kid who wanted to make a big show of sitting down or turning his back during the pledge because America is, like, fascist.

Guess you missed the word "respectfully". And hell, I'd be happy if more HS kids understood the meaning of fascist...and democratic.

Still, that is why we should have things like the pledge in school: to give kids to think about and overreact against so that they can eventually find their way towards the sacred, imaginary middle.

I suppose one person's thoughtful protest is another person's overreaction. Fair enough. Me, I'm glad our forefathers "overreacted" against the King.

[Betty]

What does "tis of thee" mean anyway?

Stangler - I loved your post. Almost makes me wish more kids would stand up for something they believe in... just to get them interested in something and think!

I remember thinking that high school was basically a baby sitting service until you were old enough to be legally an adult and get on with your life. Looking at it now - it's very much like that. Sure some kids really take advantage of it and learn alot. But me - not so much. I skated by -did as little as I could - got mostly B's and C's and looked for trouble, and ways to get out of going to school.

[Kevy Baby]

Are you sure?Yes

[Cadaverous Pallor]

"One nation, indivisible" is too reactionary towards the Civil War. I guess people trying to mend Red and Blue might think it useful these days but it's almost a case of protesting too much. Like if siblings squabble and mom makes them say "You're my sister and I love you" as part of a making up process. This country IS divisible - pick your dividing line, it has been divided for a long ass time, actually - but that's the case of any large group of people.

[Betty]

"One nation, indivisible" is too reactionary towards the Civil War. I guess people trying to mend Red and Blue might think it useful these days but it's almost a case of protesting too much. Like if siblings squabble and mom makes them say "You're my sister and I love you" as part of a making up process. This country IS divisible - pick your dividing line, it has been divided for a long ass time, actually - but that's the case of any large group of people.

Yeah - but "one nation, who argues about everything, with liberty and justice for some" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

[Not Afraid]

The whole breathing pattern changes if you leave out "under God." It's very uncomfortable. I don't know how people managed before it was put in.



I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republic for which it stands
One nation, UnderDog, indivisible
With liberty and justice for all

http://whirlwhim.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/underdog1.jpg

[bewitched]

What does "tis of thee" mean anyway?



It basically means, "this song is for (or about) you."

[BarTopDancer]

When I was a kid I always wondered why our nation was invisible.

I always wondered why they had to point out the obvious - that God was invisible.

[Kevy Baby]

What does "tis of thee" mean anyway?It basically means, "this song is for (or about) you."My country this song is for you

I don't get it

[Alex]

Getting rid of the fancy language:

My country, it is ('tis) about you (of thee), a land of liberty (sweet land of liberty), I sing (of thee I sing).

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Strangler Lewis]

It basically means, "this song is for (or about) you."

My country, you're so vain . . .