Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegience?

[Betty]

Traipsing along the internet in a click on this and that sort of way, I came upon a youtube video about a girl that refused to stand for the pledge in school.

She was physically forced to stand, suspended, sent to principal's office, etc.
She did this every day...

Checking out various other youtube video's on this guys page, I'm inclined to think we have differing viewpoints on many things. But this one I can't help but agree with.

On the one hand, it seems very disrespectful or unpatriotic to not recite the pledge. I've found that as an adult, especially in very large groups, saying the pledge can be a strangely emotional experience.

On the other hand, if she doesn't get up, others might not get up. What if they're just "lazy, dumb teenagers" and none of them get up and make a mockery of the pledge?

Does that matter?

I don't think they should have physically forced her to stand for the pledge. They made it into such a big deal that it really blew it way out of proportion and by doing so, made others sympathetic to her beliefs.

They could have have a learning experience by discussing the pledge, her viewpoints, it's history and had a great debate about it.

Back to the strangely emotional experience I've sometimes had when saying the pledge with others - It's interesting isn't it? You say it in school and don't give it much thought. At least I never did. Just recited the words. But as an adult, you pledge that your on this country's side, all together - indivisible - and then - with liberty and justice for ALL.

Is it true? Or is it just an altruistic view that's really nice but isn't the way our country actually works. I think what makes my heart swell like that is all those people hoping for the same as one voice. It's just wishful thinking though - I know that many if not most just recite it like I did in elementary school.

Things to ponder on a rainy Monday afternoon.

[€uroMeinke]

I like the experience of communal chanting - not much of a fan for the pledge though - especially for children who have little understanding for what it means.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I would have less of an issue with the Pledge without the "under god" in it - that is to say, as it was originally written. Which is its own huge debate.

It should have been a classroom discussion, about why to say the Pledge, its history, etc. Not just punishment.

Personally, I am required by an organization where I volunteer to say the Pledge at our meetings. I do omit the "under god" part, or say "under the gods" depending on my mood. I don't mind pledging allegiance to my country, as represented by the flag. I do mind pledging allegiance to a god in which I don't believe.

[lashbear]

Maybe she could say the Lemon Pledge instead.

...Although, If I were an American, I would be on the side of "Yes she should say the pledge"

Patriotism is one thing that the USA has aplenty that other countries (including my own) do not. It is one of the things that keeps your country great and powerful, do not lose it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by lashbear

Patriotism is one thing that the USA has aplenty that other countries (including my own) do not. It is one of the things that keeps your country great and powerful, do not lose it.

Yeah, look at the great things it did for Germany. And Japan.

[scaeagles]

Patriotism is a wonderful thing. Forced patriotism isn't. I think that if a minor in school, with parental support (they are a minor after all), does not wish to say the pledge they should not have to.

Germany had a charismatic leader who was viewed as practically infallible and moved toward nationalization of everything, it wasn't just patriotism. Japan had an emporer viewed as a God. Patriotism in and of itself is not a bad thing.

I do stop short, though, at those who have attempted to stop others from saying the pledge because it then makes their baby who doesn't feel like an outcast. Well, to stand up for what you believe in when it isn't popular DOES often make you feel like an outcast. It's part of it and you have to live with it if you choose to stand up for something unpopular.

[Alex]

One of the great things the Jehovah's Witnesses did for this country was, I thought, settling this issue back in 1943 in an example of one of the Supreme Courts fastest reversals of itself and was part of the key bits of Supreme Court case law that have established the modern understanding of the First Amendment.

In 1940 they issued a ruling that creating just the communal civic pride was sufficient interest for state schools to require recitation of the pledge of allegiance.

That ruling was viewed by many as official sanction of the idea that Jehovah's Witnesses were un-American and traitorous. In the next two years thousands of children were expelled from schools and there were a couple thousand recorded cases of violence against Jehovah's Witnesses (in Kennebunkport, Maine, for example, the sheriff assisted in burning down a Kingdom Hall though he thoughtfully assisted in evacuating it first).

In 1943 the Court reversed itself and ruled that the state could not force recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance. And as someone who hasn't said it since I was 8 years old (for religious reasons then and now because I view it as one of the great piece of poppycock we've ever come up with as a nation) I'm quite glad for that.

From the video, though, I'm not clear on if she was simply forced to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance or forced to stand and say it. It is hard to believe that there is a school in the country that doesn't know about West Virginia SBE v. Barnette so I lean towards assuming it was just standing. I don't know if that has been settled completely yet but I believe all of the lower court rulings that have ever been handed down have ruled that Barnette would extend to any requirements of participation, even standing.

[bewitched]

All I have to say is that if any school or organization tried to (or actually did) force my child to stand or to stand and participate in the pledge, they'd have some splainin' to do.

And Alex, I'm sure there are many schools in the country that are unaware of West Virginia SBE v. Barnette. Hell, school districts across the country still try to ban books, Board of Education v. Pico notwithstanding.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I'm very torn about the pledge. Betty likes it more as an adult, and I like it less. I've attended meetings at the City, both large and small, and they include the pledge. Seeing these adults make such a simplistic statement comes off as creepy to me. I can't promise absolute allegiance to anything, because things change. The last 8 years were enough to teach me that. IMHO, part of being an adult is understanding that precious little is black and white.

Even so - I do like the concept of patriotism, and I'm a loyal type of person. I had school spirit even though I was an outcast geek and had no reason to. I do think America as a concept is awesome and has done great things. When you're 10 years old, it's hard to understand the nuances of allegiance and loyalty. I am not opposed to using the pledge as a tool to instill this sort of "we are one group" concept, but somehow, I think as adults we need to have better ways to express it. Perhaps if the wording were changed? (Obviously the Under God part needs to go.)

Hmm, how would I write the pledge...

[blueerica]

Originally Posted by Alex

One of the great things the Jehovah's Witnesses did for this country was...

Agree.