International

[innerSpaceman]

Hmmm, I sorta think of Random Political as U.S.-based, or at least involving U.S. foreign policy when it's mildly international. But the topic I want to address is purely international. Mods, feel free to move this if it belongs elsewhere.


I'm very distressed over the Israeli court's order to evict (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/5964772/Israel-provokes-international-anger-over-eviction-of-Palestinian-families-in-Jerusalem.html) Palestinians from homes coveted by Jewish settlers, apparently based on doctrines of 19th Century law.

It's always bothered me greatly how the Israelis seem more and more to become like the Nazis that were their most loathed enemy and destroyer.


But this particular step so creeps me out. Kicking Palestinians out of their homes so jews can live there!? WTF? Third Reich, much?


This is really sick, and I'm appalled.




On a more spiritual note, it's so important not to judge and not to hate. Not merely because it's wrong to do so. But sooner or later, in this life or the next, we are doomed to become that which we hate and that which we judge.

Beware.

[Morrigoon]

The Israelis have been pissing me off for a long time. I know we have to be there to protect them, but I can't help being resentful of the way they behave as a result of having Big Brother behind them.

(And by "they" I of course mean the government, not the people themselves)

[dlrp_bopazot]

well this war between the Jewish and Muslims aren't new you know . It's been a big problem here as the Muslims are racist against the Jewish and same but on the opposite side .

That's why Turkey will never be a part of the E.U . I know a lots of people who wants to go to Tell Aviv on their vacations .

From here it's like 5 Hours flight and Round trip ticket to Tel Aviv cost around $400 .

Who's been to Tel Aviv before ?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Yeah, another disappointing move by Israel, and the rest of the world is pissed, including our Administration and Britian.

Looks like Israel is telling everyone to screw off. So much for the Roadmap, not that it meant much in the first place.

I really wouldn't be surprised if this stuff escalates really quickly and soon they are forcing all non-Jews out of their borders...and we all find out what it REALLY means when a country defines itself as recognizing one religion above all others.

:(

[Alex]

You mean we don't already know what it means when that happens? To not define one religion above all others is the relatively novel (and historically recent) option.

Or do you mean that Jews would do something unique in this regard?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

You mean we don't already know what it means when that happens? To not define one religion above all others is the relatively novel (and historically recent) option.

Or do you mean that Jews would do something unique in this regard?I mean that in the past there have been motions by Israel to work towards peace, in one way or another. I, like many other Jews in America was hopeful that it could be achieved.

A religious based state est. 1948 is something unique in that it only came to be in the 20th century and out of world guilt over the worst intolerance ever committed. It is nice to believe that this means that these wronged Jews would set up their new State to be peaceful and tolerant towards others, even as they embraced the obvious Jewishness of the concept of Israel.

My knowledge of Israeli history is by no means absolute but I have a basic concept that it tried to accommodate the Palestinian contingent to some degree for quite a while. Yes, there have always been clashes, with faults on both sides.

I can't say that there was a specific turning point, but the wall was a big deal for me, though I'm sure it had already crossed the line before then.

My current belief is that it was only a matter of time before things got down to the root of it. "Jewish State" means all others are second class citizens.
"Second class citizens" means that these people will never be represented by this gov't and their only recourse is to fight for their own gov't. (There have been Christian communities inside Israel forever, but it seems that with the greater threat of Islam we're still buddies, no prob.)

There is no way to have an Israel and NOT proclaim it a Jewish state. It's kind of the point. There are consequences to this.

It's a really sad state of affairs that the people of Israel can't see this basic truth and allow them the representation they deserve as human beings.

ETA - this is a really quick summary and I'm sure it makes no sense.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm not a scholar of Middle Eastern history either, but if by "accommodate" you mean forceably exile ... then you've got it right, as I understand it. :p

[Alex]

I mean that in the past there have been motions by Israel to work towards peace, in one way or another. I, like many other Jews in America was hopeful that it could be achieved.

Ok, I minunderstood what you said I guess. If you meant that finally Israel will act like it is a religious state that's one thing but when you said

and we all find out what it REALLY means when a country defines itself as recognizing one religion above all others.I thought you were talking bigger than Israel and many countries have set themselves up recognizing one religion above all others (such as, for the most part, all of Israel's neighbors but also most of the world at one point or another).

What you meant is clear now. I was just reading the emphasis on the wrong words in the sentence.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Unclear wording on my part, no worries.


Later when I have time I'll hit this thread for an Iran discussion, as the situation there is not going away, even as American coverage has waned.

[Disneyphile]

I've always felt that we should just back away and let them have at each other. If people are bent on destroying each other, it's going to happen no matter what. Might as well let it.

[innerSpaceman]

Yay, score one for good ol Bill Clinton. Korea pardons (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32277010/ns/world_news-asiapacific/?GT1=43001) the two American journalists it so despicably captured on the Chinese border and sentenced to 12 years hard labor.

Hooray. :)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I've always felt that we should just back away and let them have at each other. If people are bent on destroying each other, it's going to happen no matter what. Might as well let it.The thing is that even if they are "bent on destroying each other" it doesn't mean that each side builds up an army and goes to battle and one wipes the other out. Nothing is ever so tidy (not that wiping a race out is something anyone here desires).

No, there are still human beings on either side that do not want to wipe other innocents off the map. So instead of the vastly superior Israeli army just bombing the sh.t out of the Palestinians and wiping them out, they have small skirmishes for 50 years. Even if they did wipe them out, then what? Then they go to war with everyone else around them. I don't see Israel destroying all the Arab nations in the area, for many reasons, and I don't see the Arab nations actually getting together and destroying Israel either, for many reasons.

That's why these last few years have been a bit of a turning point, as Israel pushes the stakes higher. If Palestinians are a thorn in Israel's side, the rest of the Arab world is ok with that, but if Israel actually takes control and kicks them out (or kills them), then the whole situation will go somewhere new. Let's not forget that as an international community, we are not supposed to just watch as one people bullies another (even though we do, all the freaking time).

[bewitched]

I have so many beefs with this issue that it's hard to know where to start.

First, it really pisses me off that many American's knee jerk Jews=good Muslim=bad mentality that has led us so many times to unilaterally support Israel's positions even when they are morally and politically (to the rest of the international community) untenable positions. This is part of the impetuous behind the building of illegal outposts in the Palestinian territories-- the Bush administration (and to be fair, several other previous administrations) basically told Israel that we wouldn't interfere or raise issues while publicly sticking to the idea that a 2 state solution was the goal...including no more outposts and expulsion of settlers who had built illegally.

Second, I am sick of the cries of "terrorism" by the Israeli government regarding violence by the Palestinians towards Israel. What? Because the violence towards the Palestinians is perpetrated by a standing army it's not terrorism? I'm not saying that the Palestinian actions are okay, but when you are confronted by force from a huge, well equipped army, what are you supposed to do in response? How are you supposed to defend yourselves. Our own history would argue that the citizenry takes up arms to battle an unjust government.

Third, hello Israeli state (differentiating from citizens, the majority of which, in pole after pole, want a more conciliatory attitude towards the Palestinians...including dismantling of illegal settlements). Remember the beginning of the Holocaust? What in the world do you think you are doing to the Palestinians? Remember the ghettos- starving and displacing people into submission? Remember the killing? Remember the papers you were required to carry at all times? Remember the taking of your property for no reason other than someone else coveted it? Remember all of that? Remember how the world said it should never happen again? Guess what? It is happening and this time you are the perpetrators.

And now this. The ruling didn't even say that the houses in Jerusalem belonged to the Israelis in question, the authenticity of the property deeds used as the basis for the eviction is still making its way through the courts. They kicked the Palestinians (who had been living as extended families in these houses for over 50 years) out while the issue of the deeds is still pending. The houses themselves never even belonged to Israelis, the were built by the UN to house refugees and were given (by Jordan) to the (now previous) families prior to the 1967 Jordanian/Israeli war. The turnover of the houses to the Jews is a result of deeds on the property that date back to Ottoman rule (anywhere from 100 to 500 years ago).

I find it rather ironic that the Israelis are adamantly against the right of return but argue that Israeli taking of property and building of settlements is a return of Israelis to their biblical/historical homelands.

And last week several new settlements were inaugurated as an act of "defiance" towards the Obama administration:

“We are rebuilding the land of Israel,” Rabbi Yigael Shandorfi, leader of a religious academy at the neighboring settlement outpost of Nahliel, said during the ceremony. “Our hope is that there will be roads, electricity and water.” The message to President Obama, he said, is that this is Jewish land. He did not use the president’s name, but an insulting Hebrew slang for a black man and the phrase “that Arab they call a president.”

None of the hundreds gathered — mostly couples with large families, but also armed young men and teenagers from other outposts — objected. Yitzhak Shadmi, leader of the regional council of settlements, said Mr. Obama was a racist and anti-Semite for his assertion that Jews should not build here, but Arabs could.

How about an American act of defiance? How about instead of continuing to give the Israelis billions in aid and access to the latest in military hardware, all while begging them to pay us heed, we get serious and tell them that yes, they can do whatever they want...without our financial and defensive help.

[innerSpaceman]

As with health care and everything else, special interests rule the U.S. government. I doubt most Americans, much less most American jews, approve of the $2 billion annual unfettered aid to Israel. But the Israeli lobby is one of the most powerful.

End.

[Gemini Cricket]

It's such a delicate situation. Sometimes anti-Israel feelings lead to anti-Semitism and anti-Palestine feelings lead to people being anti-Muslim. It's sad and confusing for me. This comment is not directed at anyone here.

[bewitched]

It's such a delicate situation. Sometimes anti-Israel feelings lead to anti-Semitism and anti-Palestine feelings lead to people being anti-Muslim. It's sad and confusing for me. This comment is not directed at anyone here.

I agree completely (and if you were worried that I would think you were directing that at me, I don't) but I think that is also part of the problem which has prevented a meaningful national discussion about this issue. People are afraid of being branded anti-whatever. With good reason. I mean, look at the quote in my last post. The Obama administration's position is because the president is a racist, anti-Semite not for any rational basis rooted in the idea of what is fair and what is right. Personally, I don't believe that Israel's position is fundamentally anti-anything. I think the Israeli position results from a desire to accumulate as much land as possible, whether because of biblical prophecy or because of a simple desire to expand their borders. On the other hand, I think the government of Israel, and (in more recent history) the Palestinians, have played on people's religious and ethnic prejudices for their own ends and certainly the situation has evolved to encompass anti-this vs anti-that. It is the Israeli government, not the Jewish people, who is at fault here. The fact that it happens to be a largely Jewish government is beside the point and neither excuses their actions nor should it stymie debate and criticism.

[sleepyjeff]

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/strips/dry_bones/dry_bones.asp