That may be the case. But as a police office, you don't have the luxury of determining who is being irrational for the right reasons and who is being irrational for the wrong reasons. If someone is acting like that, your training is, rightly, to be cautious and take control of the situation. It's unfortunate for the family, but then maybe they should have been obeying traffic laws.

I have no problem with him pulling the gun for caution, but to waste time on a lecture, etc. after he was informed about the situation was uncalled for. If he didn't believe him, he could have followed them into the hospital and witnessed it himself.

Have you watched the video? The one who was wasting time was Moats, who instead of, say, handing the office ID when asked, kept arguing. If he had simply followed the officer's instructions, it would have been over in a couple minutes, and I bet if he had said, "Could you make it quick," while handing over his ID as asked the officer would have done exactly that. But if you are going to refuse to cooperate at every step, then under what obligation is the officer to cooperate with you? There is nothing in that video that gives me sympathy for Moats. He is angry, aggressive, argumentative, and rude through the entire thing, when all he needed to do was listen to what he was being told instructed to do.

My understanding is that is pretty much standard procedure that no matter how nicely you do it, if when pulled over you get out of the car without being told to, you're going to get to see more of the gun.

Haven't seen the video. But if the driver was acting angry and irrational I'd say that is a very good argument for the cop to slow him down no matter what the cause. He's obviously not in an emotional place appropriate for driving.

As sucky as it is, having a dying relative in a hospital is not just reason (especially since it is probably true one time out of the 100 times a police officer hears it) for risking the deaths of other people driving erratically to get there.

I had a friend in high school who's dad was a patrolman. He once said to me that traffic stops were pretty much the scariest thing he did. Because the rest of the time when things went awry it was usually in a situation where you had some reason to expect it. Since 99.9% of traffic stops were hassle free, that 0.1% had a way of just completely sneaking up on you.

Well, he didn't bother to stop and get out of the car until he'd reached the hospital parking lot, so it wasn't a matter of letting him get back in the car to drive more. It was just about finishing up the ticket-writing process and letting him into the building. So in that sense, once it was clear that, while he was agitated and upset but clearly not threatening, an argument COULD be made that the officer inappropriately delayed the ticket writing. However from what I see in the video, Moats did nothing to help himself by continuing to ignore instructions and argue.

All traits of irrationality.

When faced with that kind of emergency/shock/grief, would you stay calm and do as you're told?

Have you been in that kind of situation?

I probably would have flat-out punched a cop at the time my mom was in hospice. I wouldn't have even noticed I was doing it.

And, I would have probably been condemned by people, because in our society, open grief is considered inappropriate, rather than a call for compassion, patience, and understanding.

Yes, but I'm wired weirdly.

I don't know that I would particularly condemn you but I wouldn't condemn the police officer either for arresting you and you then being punished appropriately.

I have no problem with open grief. But just like with open anger, open love, open loathing, open macrame, the fact that you are experiencing a strong nearly uncontrollable emotion does not give you carte blanche to behave however you want without consequences.

What I would do is irrelevant. IF I were to act like that in that situation, I would expect the officer to react exactly the same. An officer CANNOT take the word of someone acting irrationally at face value, that could put their life in danger. The fact that the man's decision to not cooperate stemmed from heightened emotion doesn't change the fact that an officer's correct course of action in that case is to treat someone not following his instructions as possibly dangerous. And at no time during the process did Moats give the officer any indication he was anything but still irrational.

Your "once the situation was clear, the officer should have calmed down" argument goes both ways. Once the initial moment of irrationality was over, Moats should have taken a breath and cooperated. Instead he chose to remain argumentative for 13 minutes. Plus, there is a big difference between someone who is distraught and not thinking clearly, vs. someone who is distraught and acting aggressively. An officer is going to proceed with far more caution with the latter.

You're completely right there and had I viewed the video, it would have been apparent. Blame on both sides. :blush:

I blame the Canadians.