Hmm, I can't bench anywhere near my own weight, but I could always do pull-ups. And, back in those PE days, I could always climb the rope all the way to the top.

But I hated PE and ditched it all the time. It was rarely about rope climing, pull-ups or other feats of pure physical fitness, but instead was all about competitive sports ... which I sucked at and loathed.

Did I loathe sports because I sucked at them, or suck at them because I loathed them? Chicken or egg ... or just plain fag who sucked at sports because I had different sucking preferences??


Oh, anyway, if I would have thought for two seconds about pledging my allegiance to the flag, I would have quit reciting the progaganda pledge in the first grade. I think we did it through 5th or 6th. My political awakening came right around that time anyway.

I'm cool with a certain amount of patriotic indoctrination in as much as it leds to civic pride and shared ethos. However it can be, and usually is, taken too far, given too much weight. And the pledge particularly grates on me due to its near-idolatry. As if it weren't bad enough to be brainwashed into thinking that the US is absolutely perfectly right and the greatest of all possible nations, we've also got to bow to a piece of cloth? No thanks.

I don't know how I'd approach it with my own kid if and when the time comes. Seeing as they wouldn't be able to understand either side of the argument, I'd probably just pretty much let things be. I don't think it did me any irreparable harm to recite it, so whatever. When they kid is aware enough to start asking their own questions about it, that's when I'll address it.

No

Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance?

No, no one should be forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance should someone stand when others are saying the Pledge, I think they should out of respect but should not be forced to do so.

When I was in the second grade back in the 50’s we had a classmate who did not say the Pledge of Allegiance on religious grounds, she did stand to show respect and at the start of the school year our teacher made a brief statement that because we celebrated religious freedom in the United States some religions did not believe in the pledges of allegiance.
I do believe that if my classmate had chosen not to stand that no one would have complained.

Which, btw, segues into the "under God" issue. I rather detested the dirtbag attention grabber who used their kid as a pawn that eventually lead to the issue appearing in courts in the most recent volley. However, once in the courts, I am absolutely an unwaveringly of the opinion that the phrase should be removed. I'm not going to make a stink about it, I'm not going to deman restitution and cry religious subjugation over it being there. But if the issue is raised and it gets to the point of a Constitutional decision, I cannot fathom any rational argument that doesn't have it constituting violation of establishment.

This is the approach I take with Olivia. If and when she understands it enough to want to rebel against it, I'll support her in her decision. Interestingly, she knows I'm agnostic and considers herself one for all intents and purposes (i.e. doesn't believe in "God" insomuch as what she understands "God" to be). She chose, on her own, to pause rather than say "under God" when she recites the pledge each morning. (She does the same thing during the mention of "God" in the Girl Scout pledge* and the YMCA pledge-- where she plays basketball.)


*Unlike the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts are okay with this omission.

Yes, there is much to rebel against in the pledge. One can imagine disaffected southerners chafing against the "one nation" and "liberty and justice for all" parts.

We would do well to replace the pledge with scouting oaths, since they tend to focus on service and not merely loyalty. However, it shouldn't be too hard to teach kids that the pledge is aspirational and not merely a statement of entitlement.

Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegience?
 

No

Are you sure?

And I now realize that in my rush I made an overly general statement.