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Alex 09-18-2008 11:45 PM

Sorry, I was amusing myself with the La Pine reference on the assumption nobody would know the place (my stepfather's mother had a bumper sticker on her car that said "Where in the hell is La Pine?").

I'm sure that the area tilts McCain (though I was amazed last time I drove through there just how much it has built out in the last decade.

sleepyjeff 09-19-2008 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 240494)
Sorry, I was amusing myself with the La Pine reference on the assumption nobody would know the place (my stepfather's mother had a bumper sticker on her car that said "Where in the hell is La Pine?").

I'm sure that the area tilts McCain (though I was amazed last time I drove through there just how much it has built out in the last decade.

Lots of transplanted Californians live there so I wouldn't be surprised if the area was a tossup politically speaking...but yeah, most of the old timers are probably Republicans.

scaeagles 09-20-2008 11:09 AM

In all the discussion about Republican racism, I was very (not sarcastically - I really am) suprised by this poll from Stanford and AP.

Quote:

Deep-seated racial misgivings could cost Barack Obama the White House if the election is close, according to an AP-Yahoo News poll that found one-third of white Democrats harbor negative views toward blacks—many calling them "lazy," "violent" or responsible for their own troubles.
Now, I will say that I don't think the last item specifically listed in the quote ("responsible for their own troubles") is a racial thing. I typically think most everyone is responsible for their own troubles. I would not be surprised if that was what most respondents said, but I don't know for sure from what I've read.

Perhaps I live in some sort of sheltered bubble of good people....I know maybe 3 genuine racists (all republicans, btw). I was really shocked by this.

flippyshark 09-20-2008 11:39 AM

This survey seems mighty strange to me. I'd like to see exactly how it was worded and scored. Also, do these white democrats who apparently think black people are lazy or violent feel the same way about Barack? Really? Was the survey really that general? I'm appalled by it, but suspicious enough that I don't plan to put any store by it.

Alex 09-20-2008 03:38 PM

FiveThirtyEight.com raises some concerns about the article. Not so much a refutation as simple concerns (the polling methodology apparently hasn't been released).

Also, since the cell phone issue has come up several times recently in relation to polling, that site also has an article today looking at the differences between polling organizations that do poll cell phones and those that don't.

bewitched 09-21-2008 11:30 AM

I hate to say I'm not surprised by the poll, but I would suspect that many Dems who won't vote for Obama based on his race are probably part of the group we used to call the Reagan Democrats: generally blue collar workers (from the NE industrial states) who are socially conservative.

I'm not indicting all social conservatives, but they are a great deal more likely to be racist than people who are either liberal, or middle of the road regarding social issues.

innerSpaceman 09-22-2008 10:14 AM

So, surprise surprise, many of Obama's top donors are the very investment banks he supports bailing out this week with a $700 billion blank check from the taxpayers.


You youngin's who support Mr. Obama with your impressionable hearts and souls are perhaps too young to remember the similar campaign of Bill Clinton during the less drastic economic crisis of 1992 ... and how between the time of being elected and being inaugurated, closed door meetings with famed economist Robert Rubin caused, according to Rubin, a complete conversion in Mr. Clinton. This is bourne out by how he governed as president, gutting welfare and repealing the 1934 Glass Steigal act which was the post-depression firewall between risky investment banks (that have now tanked) and consumer banks holding the life savings of ordinary citizens ... which essentially prevented risky investments such as the ones which have again decimated the financial sector from affecting consumer savings.

Clinton repealed that act, under vast pressure from his masters, the investment banks and Wall Street.


Who's to say these large donors are not Obama's masters as well? Where will the countervailing pressure come from to hold Obama's feet to the populist fire he preaches so freely with his mouth?


Democrats in Congress want some minor conditions on the $700 billion blank check, such as caps on CEO compensation and protection for millions of homeowners facing foreclosure. But the Bush Administration (surprise surprise) wants a simple blank check and unlimited powers given to the Treasury Secretary to bail out failing banks by buying the bad mortgage debt packages with taxpayer funds as he sees fit, i.e., as banks demand. Banks are already salivating and urging Treasury to purchase other bad debts beyond the mortgage packages with our money.


Meanwhile, reputable economists have predicted this disaster for years. So this is not some unforseen disaster to Congress and the Administration like a hurricane or nuclear attack. These are their policies coming home to roost ... and suddenly we have the most activist goverment since the New Deal with powers and funds government long insisted it didn't have.

Where were these powers and moneys when it came to reforming health care, saving social security, restoring our national infrastructure??


All the young Obama supporters are too young to remember when government actually did anything, when government made things instead of unmaking them. In their entire lifetimes, all they've seen is cutbacks and can't do's. Oh-ho, suddenly there's plenty of money, and plenty of willpower to take radical and meddling action in altering the free-market economy trumped uber alis by our government for decades.


Meanwhile, in the midst of the looming and unfolding crisis, the two presidential campaigns have become nearly meaningless. And sure, Obama looks to be the better candidate on the economy than McCain by a long shot. But he's almost as dangerous. It already looks like he's under the thumb of his Wall Street donors, and what kind of president will good-mouthed Obama really be?

Ah memories of Clinton's promise ... and ultimate failings. Why the Republicans didn't just love him as president, I will never know. He governed precisely as a big-business Republican would have.


Meanwhile, FDR's New Deal after the depression was not a cake-walk for that administration. It was a series of radical and progressive acts, opposed by Wall Street at every turn. And the results were actually compromises Wall Street accepted ... because, at the time, the alternative was actual revolution in the streets.


That kind of serious, radical, prevalent grass-roots pressure from below is what it will again take for the next president to feel a countermanding pressure from Main Street below to match the intense pressure from Wall Street above.


I don't think the American people are up for it.



See you in the bread lines.

scaeagles 09-22-2008 11:18 AM

This is an easy to understand piece on why this financial crisis is largely the democrats failure, not the republicans. It also points out that McCain was one of three cosponsors on a bill that would most likely have averted this should it have passed.

Quote:

Fannie and Freddie did this by becoming a key enabler of the mortgage crisis. They fueled Wall Street's efforts to securitize subprime loans by becoming the primary customer of all AAA-rated subprime-mortgage pools. In addition, they held an enormous portfolio of mortgages themselves.

....

The clear gravity of the situation pushed the legislation forward. Some might say the current mess couldn't be foreseen, yet in 2005 Alan Greenspan told Congress how urgent it was for it to act in the clearest possible terms: If Fannie and Freddie ``continue to grow, continue to have the low capital that they have, continue to engage in the dynamic hedging of their portfolios, which they need to do for interest rate risk aversion, they potentially create ever-growing potential systemic risk down the road,'' he said. ``We are placing the total financial system of the future at a substantial risk.''

...

Oh, and there is one little footnote to the story that's worth keeping in mind while Democrats point fingers between now and Nov. 4: Senator John McCain was one of the three cosponsors of S.190, the bill that would have averted this mess.
This needs to be publicized from the mountain tops by the Mccain campaign.

No wonder Pelosi has been loudly proclaiming the dems have no fault in this. It appears to be largely their fault, and McCain was one who tried to pass legicaltion to reign in this problem three years ago.

Tom 09-22-2008 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 240986)
This is an easy to understand piece on why this financial crisis is largely the democrats failure, not the republicans. It also points out that McCain was one of three cosponsors on a bill that would most likely have averted this should it have passed.

It also is written by a McCain campaign advisor.

innerSpaceman 09-22-2008 11:42 AM

Three years ago when the Republicans controlled the White House and Congress??? I'm confused, and won't be examing any of this material until someone can explain to me how the Republicans are not responsible for anything that passed while they completely controlled Congress.


Believe me, I'm not holding the Democrats harmless in this. But certainly Mr. Keating Five Scandal, aka McCain, has been no less in the pockets of Wall Street Banks than the rest of his collaborators on both sides of the aisle.

scaeagles 09-22-2008 11:43 AM

True. However, it does remain a fact that he did cosponsor legislation to reign in Freddie and Fannie. The extrapolation of the impact of those two on the rest of the market and industry would certainly be up for debate.

scaeagles 09-22-2008 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 240994)
Believe me, I'm not holding the Democrats harmless in this. But certainly Mr. Keating Five Scandal, aka McCain, has been no less in the pockets of Wall Street Banks than the rest of his collaborators on both sides of the aisle.


Completely agreed.

innerSpaceman 09-22-2008 11:45 AM

Ok, but maybe we should take this to another thread, or start a Great Depression Two thread.

I hold Obama responsible for the pressure of his donors on his eventual presidency, if there is one.


If we want to talk about the responsiblity of McCain vs. general Democrats, or general Republicans vs. general Democrats, I propose that it doesn't belong in the Obama thread.


Maybe a General You thread is in order. ;)

Tenigma 09-22-2008 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 240990)
It also is written by a McCain campaign advisor.

Hahaha... now that's what I call pure pwnage. :D

scaeagles 09-22-2008 11:52 AM

Not at all...

And ISM, as I understand it, the house passed their version of the bill in question by a large majority (330-120 or something like that). The Senate bill was never able to come to vote due to a dem filibuster.

innerSpaceman 09-22-2008 12:16 PM

Maybe I'm just obtuse this morning, scaeagles. But you say the Republican-controlled House of Representatives passed the measure by a large majority, and then the Republican-controlled Senate was stopped from making it a law by a Democratic fillibuster, but you blame the eventual law on the Democrats?


Or are you talking about the McCain co-sponsored alternate bill? What are you saying, man? And does what you're saying have anything to do with Barack Obama???

Tom 09-22-2008 12:59 PM

Scaegles, do you have a link that shows it was filibustered? I've been looking around and have been unable to find any evidence that it was. The article you posted never said it was. According to the Senate website the last action on the bill was "Jul 28, 2005: Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. Ordered to be reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute favorably," which seems to indicate that it never left committee. The Republicans should have at least been able to get it out of committee on a party line vote, even if it didn't come before the full senate later.

scaeagles 09-22-2008 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 241005)
Or are you talking about the McCain co-sponsored alternate bill? What are you saying, man? And does what you're saying have anything to do with Barack Obama???

Sorry....you're right in that this isn't the place for this subject matter. I just posted it as you brought up the broader subject of Obama and his ties to the banking industry.

scaeagles 09-22-2008 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 241016)
Scaegles, do you have a link that shows it was filibustered? I've been looking around and have been unable to find any evidence that it was. The article you posted never said it was. According to the Senate website the last action on the bill was "Jul 28, 2005: Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. Ordered to be reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute favorably," which seems to indicate that it never left committee. The Republicans should have at least been able to get it out of committee on a party line vote, even if it didn't come before the full senate later.

Yeah, that's why I said "I think". I haven't had the time to research it so I apologize for anything that might have misled.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a combination of dems and republicans stopped it from coming out of committee. To me, the main point was that McCain at least seemed to see that this was coming, but this is the Obama thread, not the McCain thread, as ISM pointed out, so the subject matter doesn't fit here.

BarTopDancer 09-22-2008 02:44 PM

We shouldn't be so cocky that CA is going to go to Obama.

Snowflake 09-22-2008 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarTopDancer (Post 241042)
We shouldn't be so cocky that CA is going to go to Obama.

From the article BtD cites:

Quote:

Despite generating all this fear and enthusiasm, the Palin Factor hasn't changed the race in California. Obama beats McCain 52 percent to 36 percent in a Field Poll released last week, and neither campaign is broadcasting ads in the state's expensive television markets. On Thursday, Palin canceled her rally and fundraising visit to the state planned for this week.
Maybe not too cocky, but still fairly confident, I'd say.

Alex 09-22-2008 02:58 PM

I'm going to continue being cocky about that.

Unless he takes the opportunity at one of the debates to climb up on McCain's lectern and fart audibly in McCain's face while waiving the national flag of Iran, Obama will win California (and probably would still win).


I wouldn't worry about that "big funding for activity in the state" and "solid internal polling numbers." That is just campaignese for "Please, please, don't give up!"

Snowflake 09-22-2008 03:03 PM

Alex, bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

BarTopDancer 09-22-2008 03:07 PM

If Democratic voters and voters leaning towards Obama decide to not vote because "Obama is just going to win anyways" it can be lost.

Alex 09-22-2008 03:20 PM

That is true, though it was true of the last four elections as well and didn't in any way put the Democratic candidate at risk of losing the state (which has been a 10 point win or more each time).

But yes, everybody should vote regardless of how certain the result seems. I just don't see any real risk of the result (for president) changing. California is willing to consider Republicans at the state level, they just don't seem willing to do so at the national level. North Carolina is similar in reverse.

innerSpaceman 09-22-2008 03:43 PM

And I'm still not voting for him. It would have to get awfully more close in the polls for me to change my mind.

Alex 09-22-2008 04:00 PM

Absolutely, I was very careful in phrasing that so it didn't say who to vote for, just to vote.

(And president is really the only position where I hold the view that everyone should vote regardless. For everything else I think most people should refuse to vote on grounds of ignorance.)

sleepyjeff 09-23-2008 11:26 AM

Senator Biden on the recent stock market selloff:

Quote:

"When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed"

Wow, just wow.........and some of you guys want this mental giant as your next VP;)

3894 09-23-2008 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 241185)
Wow, just wow.........and some of you guys want this mental giant as your next VP

I don't get it. Is it the Roosevelt reference that bugs you?

Ghoulish Delight 09-23-2008 11:45 AM

Television

scaeagles 09-23-2008 12:01 PM

Wasn't Hoover President when the market crashed?

Alex 09-23-2008 12:04 PM

Yes. And FDR was governor of New York and already had presidential ambitions.

But I don't know how much of a public figure he was on the issue in 1929. There is much potentially wrong in Biden's statement (though not so much in the sentiment attributed to FDR) but I think TV was the main laughing point.

Of course, the obvious response from McCain is to make a joke of it if he is secure enough in the age issue. Some version of I knew FDR and you're no FDR.

innerSpaceman 09-23-2008 12:04 PM

Yes, Biden messed up. Roosevelt solved the Great Depression, he did was not president when it started. And of course his famous "Nothing to fear but fear itself" address was on radio.


Let's retire Joe, and elect his son Bow as king, er, president, er vice-president.

Alex 09-23-2008 12:08 PM

FDR didn't solve the Great Depression, WWII did. But FDR did make people feel like government was trying.

scaeagles 09-23-2008 12:11 PM

Damn - was about to post the same WWII thing and got beat to it.

3894 09-23-2008 12:13 PM

Ohhh, television. I didn't catch that. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 241207)

Of course, the obvious response from McCain is to make a joke of it if he is secure enough in the age issue. Some version of I knew FDR and you're no FDR.

He's probably insecure about it at this moment what with the "fundamentally sound" economy gaffe, the Spain gaffe and the creepy grandpa thing about the little fishes swimming around the oil platforms, among others.

Moonliner 09-23-2008 12:14 PM

The great crash took place in Oct of 1929

Herbert Hoover was President from March 4, 1929 to March 4, 1933

In 1925 Dr. Ernst Alexanderson broadcasts in Schenectady, NY area to an estimated 300 receivers.

However, FDR is credited with being the first President to appear on Television. He spoke at the opening session of the New York World's Fair on April 30, 1939.

The first regular scheduled TV broadcast in the US was also in 1939.



Yes. My name is moonliner and I am a Googleholic.

Tenigma 09-23-2008 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 241208)
Let's retire Joe, and elect his son Bow as king, er, president, er vice-president.

Hell, if it annihilates the Palin ticket I will even agree to a switch to Hillary.

Snowflake 09-23-2008 01:32 PM

Uh-Oh, Obama's doomed for sure now! ;)

Clinton says Democrats should win this year
Quote:

WASHINGTON - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday that Barack Obama is going to be elected the next president and that she has "no doubt" about it.

Clinton also said that while she recognizes that race and gender play a role in the minds of voters as they make their presidential choices, she believes enough people want change from Republican policies to put Obama over the top in November.

Interviewed on CBS's "The Early Show," she was asked what she thought about Republican Sarah Palin's vice presidential candidacy. She said she thought any woman is going to face certain issues and questions but that "the bottom line is who is on top of the ticket."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080923/.../clinton_obama

sleepyjeff 09-23-2008 01:32 PM

I might have to change my mind and vote for Obama after all......with Biden around to poke fun at, the next 4 years could be a delight;)

sleepyjeff 09-23-2008 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 241240)
Uh-Oh, Obama's doomed for sure now! ;)

Clinton says Democrats should win this year




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080923/.../clinton_obama


Don't worry, so long as Billy isn't actively campaigning for him he should be alright:D

Tenigma 09-23-2008 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 241241)
I might have to change my mind and vote for Obama after all......with Biden around to poke fun at, the next 4 years could be a delight;)

And we will likely not wind up spreading ourselves thinner fighting wars in Iran, Pakistan, and Russia! What a bonus!

sleepyjeff 09-23-2008 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenigma (Post 241257)
And we will likely not wind up spreading ourselves thinner fighting wars in Iran, Pakistan, and Russia! What a bonus!

Oh, because they will be too busy laughing at Biden to do anything we would want to stop or will it be that we will be too busy laughing to put a stop to anything they might do?

;)

scaeagles 09-23-2008 04:05 PM

Funny....no one has suggested a war with Russia, Obama is critical of us not doing enough militarily in Pakistan (yes, I'm aware of the recent story of US special forces incursions into Pakistan) even suggesting the possibility of using nukes....but I wouldn't doubt something could be up with Iran. However, I suppose Israel is going to be behind most of that.

mousepod 09-23-2008 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 241300)
Funny....no one has suggested a war with Russia

Sorry for the long quote, but I don't want to be accused of taking things out of context.

Quote:

GIBSON: Would you favor putting Georgia and Ukraine in NATO?

PALIN: Ukraine, definitely, yes. Yes, and Georgia.

GIBSON: Because Putin has said he would not tolerate NATO incursion into the Caucasus.

PALIN: Well, you know, the Rose Revolution, the Orange Revolution, those actions have showed us that those democratic nations, I believe, deserve to be in NATO.

Putin thinks otherwise. Obviously, he thinks otherwise, but…

GIBSON: And under the NATO treaty, wouldn’t we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?

PALIN: Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you’re going to be expected to be called upon and help.

But NATO, I think, should include Ukraine, definitely, at this point and I think that we need to — especially with new leadership coming in on January 20, being sworn on, on either ticket, we have got to make sure that we strengthen our allies, our ties with each one of those NATO members.

We have got to make sure that that is the group that can be counted upon to defend one another in a very dangerous world today.

GIBSON: And you think it would be worth it to the United States, Georgia is worth it to the United States to go to war if Russia were to invade.

PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries.

And we have got to be vigilant. We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia. The support that we can show is economic sanctions perhaps against Russia, if this is what it leads to.

It doesn’t have to lead to war and it doesn’t have to lead, as I said, to a Cold War, but economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, again, counting on our allies to help us do that in this mission of keeping our eye on Russia and Putin and some of his desire to control and to control much more than smaller democratic countries.

His mission, if it is to control energy supplies, also, coming from and through Russia, that’s a dangerous position for our world to be in, if we were to allow that to happen.

Cadaverous Pallor 09-23-2008 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 241287)
Oh, because they will be too busy laughing at Biden to do anything we would want to stop or will it be that we will be too busy laughing to put a stop to anything they might do?

;)

Gaffes, right. While you're doubled up in glee with tears streaming from your eyes at the absolute hilarity of the concept that Biden said the term "TV" instead of "radio", there might be real issues being discussed by the adults at the table.

scaeagles 09-23-2008 07:55 PM

Mousepod, I'm aware of the interview. I find no problem with it, really. Who will stand up to them if they are renewing their imperialist ways? Hypotheticals are fine and dandy, but of course if Georgia or the Ukraine was part of NATO we would have no choice but respond.

Palin didn't suggest war with Russia. Gibson did. The last highlighted portion said other things would be tried first. These are the same arguments that were ongoing during the cold war. Should she say that the US has no desire to assist or interest in the continuation of free former Soviet states?

Honestly, I don't know what the problem is with what she said. She didn't suggest it. Gibson did. She asserted that any ally deserves to be protected. And she's right.

scaeagles 09-23-2008 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 241361)
Gaffes, right. While you're doubled up in glee with tears streaming from your eyes at the absolute hilarity of the concept that Biden said the term "TV" instead of "radio", there might be real issues being discussed by the adults at the table.

CP....c'mon. You know if Palin said that FDR was President in October of 1929 she would be ridiculed. This isn't about TV - it's about historical knowledge.

Motorboat Cruiser 09-23-2008 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 241364)
CP....c'mon. You know if Palin said that FDR was President in October of 1929 she would be ridiculed. This isn't about TV - it's about historical knowledge.

Really? You don't think that Biden is aware that FDR wasn't President during the Great Depression? You don't think he is aware that television didn't exist in 1929. Really?

Personally, I think all of the candidates brains get a little fried after weeks of talking literally non-stop. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to McCain that he knows that Czechoslovakia no longer exists and to Obama who certainly knows that there are 50 states.

scaeagles 09-23-2008 08:12 PM

Sorry. Of course I know Biden knows that Hoover was President. I meant the ridicule....it wasn't about TV vs radio, as has been alluded to in the thread. It was about who was President.

If Palin said it, her knwledge would most certainly be questioned. I don't question Biden's at all. Not here, perhaps, but certainly in the media.

Cadaverous Pallor 09-23-2008 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 241364)
CP....c'mon. You know if Palin said that FDR was President in October of 1929 she would be ridiculed. This isn't about TV - it's about historical knowledge.

What MBC said.

Also - Of course "she would be ridiculed", doesn't mean that I'd do the ridiculing. There have been lots of these gaffes from both sides and focusing on them shows just how much we love petty drama. I can practically hear the Married With Children audience laugh track. "Ooooooooooohhh!"

Disclaimer - I'm sure I focused on gaffes in the past, but I've totally changed my stance on them. I'm done fcuking around with slip-ups and mistakes, pointing them out only when certain people do them, and pretending they don't matter when other people do them. I could list a few moments of McCain and Palin caught in mis-speech that don't bother me to prove my point but that would mean mentioning them, and I won't do it. None of them really bother me any more.

Further disclaimer - "gaffe" means whatever we want it to mean, doesn't it? I'm sure I'll point at something and someone else will say it was just a gaffe, while I disagree. Such is life.

JWBear 09-23-2008 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 241363)
...Palin didn't suggest war with Russia. Gibson did. The last highlighted portion said other things would be tried first...

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold right there!

So Palin is saying that diplomacy and sanctions should be tried first before going to war?! Isn't the Republican position just the opposite? Didn't they, in complete lockstep, ridicule Democrats who suggested the exact same thing in?!

scaeagles 09-23-2008 08:46 PM

Ummm....no.

There is a difference between negotiating with sponsors of terrorism who violate the nuclear non proliferation treaty and with the Russians. It's like when we negotiated with North Korea recently or Saddam after Gulf War I or any other number of negotiations.

Sanctions have never been ridiculed against Iran. In fact, they've been encouraged and pushed for, primarily with Russia standing in the way (largely due to arms sales). Just direct unconditional talks with leaders of terrorist states has been ridiculed.

JWBear 09-23-2008 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 241379)
...There is a difference between negotiating with sponsors of terrorism who violate the nuclear non proliferation treaty and with the Russians....

Ummm....no. there isn't. Nice try, though.

scaeagles 09-24-2008 04:48 AM

Suppose it's matter of opinion that we'll never agree upon.

At least you must agree that sanctions have been there in dealing with any adversary and promoted by the republicans, right?

sleepyjeff 09-27-2008 09:08 PM

Quote:

"Unfortunately, only US citizens are eligible to register to vote"
A telling line from the Obama's web site?

Why the word "unfortunately"? Why not "sorry" or simply leave out that part of the sentence all together and just say "Only US Citizens..."?

To me the word "unfortunately" implies that they regret that only US citizens are allowed to vote in a US election......as if maybe they wish every person on Earth(except US military personal, of course) should be allowed to vote in this most historic election:rolleyes:

sleepyjeff 09-27-2008 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 242569)
A telling line from the Obama's web site?

Why the word "unfortunately"? Why not "sorry" or simply leave out that part of the sentence all together and just say "Only US Citizens..."?

To me the word "unfortunately" implies that they regret that only US citizens are allowed to vote in a US election......as if maybe they wish every person on Earth(except US military personal, of course) should be allowed to vote in this most historic election:rolleyes:


Decided the check the McCain site just to make sure I wasn't going to get egg on my face; I am not. On the McCain site they say:

Quote:


You MUST be a citizen of the United States to register

Ghoulish Delight 09-27-2008 09:33 PM

Good catch, that doesn't sit well. I went through it and I don't think they were trying to push some sort of agenda, I think it was more of a, "Unfortunately you just wasted your time and we're trying to let you down easy." But not a good choice of phrasing considering the context. Those tech-pubs guys sometimes get stuck in their own heads.

sleepyjeff 09-27-2008 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 242571)
Good catch, that doesn't sit well. I went through it and I don't think they were trying to push some sort of agenda, I think it was more of a, "Unfortunately you just wasted your time and we're trying to let you down easy." But not a good choice of phrasing considering the context. Those tech-pubs guys sometimes get stuck in their own heads.

You're probably right....not likely that they are really trying to push an agenda here; at worse it might be a freudian thing on the part of the publisher I suppose.

flippyshark 09-28-2008 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 242576)
You're probably right....not likely that they are really trying to push an agenda here; at worse it might be a freudian thing on the part of the publisher I suppose.

That's exactly what it strikes me as. Mind you, I don't see this slip as a sign of arrogance. It rather seems like a slip indicating a lack of confidence. ("The rest of the world seems to like Obama, but will our own country? I'm not so sure....")

Cadaverous Pallor 09-28-2008 07:57 AM

Jews, click here! (and everyone else too) NSFW due to language.

http://www.thegreatschlep.com/site/index.html

bewitched 09-28-2008 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 242590)
Jews, click here! (and everyone else too) NSFW due to language.

http://www.thegreatschlep.com/site/index.html


LMAO!

"I'd rather have a president who's name means 'lightening' than one who's name means 'toilet'" :D

JWBear 09-28-2008 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bewitched (Post 242663)
LMAO!

"I'd rather have a president who's name means 'lightening' than one who's name means 'toilet'" :D

Hey! Careful what you say about the name "John"....

bewitched 09-29-2008 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 242671)
Hey! Careful what you say about the name "John"....


;)

innerSpaceman 09-29-2008 07:27 AM

it's twu, it's twu!

Spoiler:
Hahahaha, Obama's circumsupercized!

Tenigma 09-29-2008 11:39 AM

From Real Clear Politics blog (Time magazine):

Quote:

SurveyUSA has the race down to one point Florida (Sept 27-28, 599 LV), a five point swing from ten days ago:

McCain 48 (-3 vs. last poll Sept 16-17)
Obama 47 (+2)
Good golly Miss Molly, this is breathtakingly startling. ONE POINT. I knew Florida was a battleground state, but there's a lot riding because they have so many electoral votes.

But honestly, I had completely written off Florida.

This is STUNNING. Just to be SO CLOSE. Wow.

Tom 09-29-2008 11:59 AM

Florida will be close. Actually, it's been looking for a while like it would be closer than more traditional battlegrounds like Ohio or Missouri.

And without Florida, it's really hard to imagine how McCain could win.

Snowflake 09-29-2008 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 242788)
Florida will be close. Actually, it's been looking for a while like it would be closer than more traditional battlegrounds like Ohio or Missouri.

And without Florida, it's really hard to imagine how McCain could win.

Well, Flippyshark, this puts some pressure on you, doesn't it? ;)

Gemini Cricket 09-29-2008 02:24 PM


Quote:

University of Mississippi in Oxford, MS on Friday, September 26, 2008. (David Katz/Obama for America)
A shot taken before the debate.
I like this photo.

Moonliner 09-29-2008 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 242863)
I like this photo.

Me too. Although if that's his travel bag in the photo he carries more makeup than my wife.

innerSpaceman 09-29-2008 02:34 PM

He does. It's all that blackface. He's really white.





(He's half white, so I'm kinda bugged by this whole first black president thing. Half is half.)

Alex 09-29-2008 03:17 PM

Well, to be fair it would kind of suck if after centuries of "one black great-grandparent and you can't sit at the front of the bus" (and equivalents) it were now turned around and said that he isn't black because only one of his parents is black.

But that's unimportant. The key to me is that he's going to be the first president to have lived entirely with a 50 state United States. That's a key aspect of his identity right there.

Tom 09-29-2008 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenigma (Post 242781)
Good golly Miss Molly, this is breathtakingly startling. ONE POINT. I knew Florida was a battleground state, but there's a lot riding because they have so many electoral votes.

If you got this excited about a one point race in Florida, then you probably shouldn't even look at this. You might hyperventilate.

And by all means, do not look at this, whatever you do.

scaeagles 09-29-2008 07:29 PM

I don't think this is close at all anymore. I think Obama has this in the bag, and honestly, the longer an economic package (if any) takes to pass and the American people are in a borderline economic panic state, the longer he will continue to increase his lead.

The rhetoric coming out of Pelosi's office, which is completely disingenuous, will continue to grab press attention and play to the American people.

However, McCains position at present can in no way be completely balmed on the dems. He's looked weak recently and the dems are doing a great job blaming republicans in general. He needs to start campaigning or it is all over.

Cadaverous Pallor 09-29-2008 07:40 PM

I have no idea if it's at all valid, but I love www.fivethirtyeight.com . The guy claims he knows what's he's talking about. It'll make any Obama supporter feel better :)

Tom 09-29-2008 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 242984)
I have no idea if it's at all valid, but I love www.fivethirtyeight.com .

I've been reading that site for a while, and it's become the political site I most often refresh through the course of the day. I have found his blog to be enlightening and insightful, and I actually had to read it for a number of weeks before I even became aware that he's a Democrat (though he's been letting that out more often of late). I don't know if the various percentages he has assigned to the races and the statistical analyses behind them are valid, but they seem to be pretty much in the ballpark of what I would expect based on my entirely unscientific impressions of the races.

flippyshark 09-29-2008 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 242790)
Well, Flippyshark, this puts some pressure on you, doesn't it? ;)

I'm hoping it all comes down to me. :)

Tenigma 09-29-2008 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 242981)
However, McCains position at present can in no way be completely balmed on the dems. He's looked weak recently and the dems are doing a great job blaming republicans in general. He needs to start campaigning or it is all over.

Wow, an early concession speech from sceagles?

As a point, McCain made a huge issue about how he was going to postpone his campaign, made a huge deal about going to DC, and then this thing doesn't pass. He might go around blaming Pelosi and Obama, but it just makes him look bad.

It's not really all his fault; Republicans in a close race that are running this year are voting against it. But it still makes him look petty.

Not Afraid 09-29-2008 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 242981)
I don't think this is close at all anymore. I think Obama has this in the bag, and honestly, the longer an economic package (if any) takes to pass and the American people are in a borderline economic panic state, the longer he will continue to increase his lead.

The rhetoric coming out of Pelosi's office, which is completely disingenuous, will continue to grab press attention and play to the American people.

However, McCains position at present can in no way be completely balmed on the dems. He's looked weak recently and the dems are doing a great job blaming republicans in general. He needs to start campaigning or it is all over.

I may just print that out and paste it on my wall until November rolls around.

wendybeth 09-29-2008 09:50 PM

I find it humorous that the cons are decrying Pelosi's partisan speech, while their own candidate took the situation for a very cynical ride (that backfired) last week. At the same time, I think Pelosi really didn't need to give the speech she did. I think the results would have been the same, but now the Repub's are blaming her instead of the real reason, which is they want to be re-elected and they know the public is very much against this bailout.

innerSpaceman 09-29-2008 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenigma (Post 242992)
He might go around blaming Pelosi and Obama, but it just makes him look bad.

Especially when 60% of the Democrats voted for the bailout bill, but only 33% of Republicans did. Jeebus, John.

As the great de-regulator, you would have been badly enough off with just the economic crisis of 2008 ... but you had to make a spectacle of running to Washington and dropping everything (except Katie Couric) to solve the economic crisis ... and the most leadership you have to show for it is only one-third of your party supporting your solution, compared to nearly two-thirds of the opposition.


I think John McCain should pull the covers up over his head before he blunders this election any more.





TeeHee, bless you, John. :D

scaeagles 09-30-2008 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenigma (Post 242992)
It's not really all his fault; Republicans in a close race that are running this year are voting against it. But it still makes him look petty.


I believe that Pelosi gave her divisive speech on the floor prior to the vote for the specific purpose of wanting republicans to vote against it. The more I think about it, the more I believe she (and dem politicians in general) want this to continue until the election.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 243007)
Especially when 60% of the Democrats voted for the bailout bill, but only 33% of Republicans did. Jeebus, John.


Hold on....why, then were the republicans blamed when McCains bill in regard to reigning in Freddie and Fannie failed? Didn't get out of committee, but MOST of the republicans voted to get it out of committee and MOST of the dems voted to kill it.

If the dems wanted it to pass, there is nothing the republicans could have done to stop it. Nothing. They even have a guaranteed signature from Bush. They don't want it to pass.

innerSpaceman 09-30-2008 07:49 AM

Who blamed the Republicans for that? Was it Barack Obama???



It's seeming a little infantile of you to be changing the subject like that.


There, I'll concede that politicians wrongly blame the other side of the aisle on a routine basis, all in craven partisan lyinghood.



Now, can we address the subject of what a bonehead John McCain continues to be about the economic crisis, and how his every chosen move just digs him deeper into the hole of unelectability?


Or would you like to discuss mitochondria?

Gemini Cricket 09-30-2008 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 243043)
Or would you like to discuss mitochondria?

I'll field this one, Leo.
Mitochondria is a cell's power station of sorts. It has two membranes. They can be round or elongated...

innerSpaceman 09-30-2008 08:07 AM

Is that the celluar equivalent of cut or uncut? Or is this getting too esoteric?

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 08:39 AM

Mitochondria are what make Jedis.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 09:24 AM

ISM, this was a recent subject regarding McCain's attempt in 2005 to get some reigns on Freddie and Fannie. It was pointed out to me that the republicans could have passed it at that point in time without one dem vote but it didn't even make it to the floor.

Only bringing it up in that context of who is really in control of this process.

innerSpaceman 09-30-2008 09:52 AM

Apples (from the Riley Farm) and Oranges. A bill not making it out of committee has absolutely nothing to do with a situation where Republicans desperately seeking reelection won't go along with their party mandate when a bill is on the floor.

In fact, more Democrats would have voted for the bill had not so many Republicans voted against it. Midway through the voting, the word went out to the Dems from their leadership that they could vote their conscience, since Republicans were not supporting their party line.

So the only thing Pelosi had to do with the result was perhaps that less Democrats voted for the bailout than would have otherwise. She had zero to do with Republicans voting two thirds against it.



I fail to see the applicability of your comparison, and I call official shenanigans on you, Sir.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 243077)
In fact, more Democrats would have voted for the bill had not so many Republicans voted against it.


HA! A claim of shenanigans from someone using how the republicans voted to justify the dems not passing it? THAT'S funny. That's Kerry-esque.

I see your shenanigans and raise you two more, sir!

innerSpaceman 09-30-2008 10:15 AM

You can't change facts, that's how it went. There's no way of knowing how the Democratic vote tally might have differed, but they were released from their obligations to adhere to the party line as the (I believe four hour long) vote progressed.


I'm not justifying anything. There's no blame from me for the failure to pass this miserable piece of legislation. The Republicans may have voted no for the most craven of reasons, but I applaud them for their lack of support.

tracilicious 09-30-2008 10:32 AM

As representatives, they shouldn't be voting party line anyways. They should be voting the way their home state feels to the best of their ability. Public opinion was vastly opposed to the bailout, so kudos to all who voted against it for representing the public.

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracilicious (Post 243106)
As representatives, they shouldn't be voting party line anyways. They should be voting the way their home state feels to the best of their ability. Public opinion was vastly opposed to the bailout, so kudos to all who voted against it for representing the public.

Voting based on public opinion is no more or less valid than voting based on party lines.

They should be voting based on what they think will have the most favorable outcome for the country. The definition of "most favorable outcome" is hardly cut and dry. If they pass it and the economy still falters and the Democrats get voted out for passing a "bad" bailout (nevermind whether any further failures are the fault of the bailout or not) that they voted for but the republicans didn't, is that the "most favorable outcome?" from a Democrat's perspective? Not even in terms of the personal unfavorableness of losing one's job, but from the perspective of, "We got voted out for doing what we thought was right against public opinion, and now everything else we stand for is going to fall by the wayside because of that one issue."

That's just for starters. Such is politics. No vote is done in a vacuum. No vote is safe from being used to screw you in the future. It must really suck to deal with. Even if you're 100% sure of which vote is the "right" vote on a particular issue, you STILL have to stop and think and decide if doing the "right" thing on that single point will prevent you from being able to do the "right" thing on a larger scale down the line.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 11:24 AM

The House of Representatives was never intended to be filled with career politicians for just this reason (the Senate is different, of course). The view of what is the most favorable outcome for the nation is typically trumped by the desire to be reelected.

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 11:41 AM

Even if a representative themself isn't looking at their own reelection, they still want to pave the way for someone who agrees with them to take their place. Politics will always be an inextricable part of the decision making process.

Alex 09-30-2008 11:46 AM

The problem with government spending a lot of money to successfully prevent (or reduce a problem) is that if they are successful, they're screwed because so many people will believe that the prevention was unnecessary since nothing bad happened. If they fail they are screwed since obviously it didn't prevent anything even if it was the only thing that even had a chance of doing so. If they do nothing and it happens, they are screwed since they should have done whatever was necessary to prevent it. If they do nothing and nothing happens then they got away with it.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 11:47 AM

I agree to an extent. However, their votes would then be more often be in line with what they think is best rather than what they think is politically expedient.

Agreed, Alex. And it is very easy to present any spin as a political opponent.

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243136)
I agree to an extent. However, their votes would then be more often be in line with what they think is best rather than what they think is politically expedient.

Vaguely so, but I really don't think it would be enough to make a huge difference. The only thing it really cuts out is votes and deals based on long standing personal relationships between individual representatives. The larger scale deal making and politic-motivated voting between parties at odds with each other will continue no matter how often you rotate the individuals. I agree that it would be an improvement, but not enough for me to be hugely motivated to fight for term limits. And definitely not enough for me to vote term limits in for my own state while other states remain limit-free.

And yeah, you're right Alex, damned if you do, damned if you don't. They've kinda put themselves in this position, though, by going through the charade of publically reaming Paulson and company, only to turn around and say, "We've almost come to an agreement!" And then, by ditching that agreement, coming to another one, and voting THAT one down, it's painfully obvious that they've stopped making decisions based on what's best to do but they're just riding the wave of public opinion.

Betty 09-30-2008 01:41 PM

If they are truly representing "us", shouldn't they be loyal to public opinion? or is it too little too late for them to start that now since it never really mattered before?

scaeagles 09-30-2008 01:42 PM

Public opinion is fickle and uninformed.

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 243157)
If they are truly representing "us", shouldn't they be loyal to public opinion? or is it too little too late for them to start that now since it never really mattered before?

No, they should represent our interests, not our demands.

Alex 09-30-2008 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 243157)
If they are truly representing "us", shouldn't they be loyal to public opinion? or is it too little too late for them to start that now since it never really mattered before?

Not necessarily, which is why we're a representative democracy and not a direct democracy. The fickleness of public opinion is one reason the Senate was specifically shielded from it with long six year terms in rotating waves.

If this "crisis" had arisen 12 months ago or six weeks from now, the behavior in the House of Representatives would be dramatically different knowing that there would be a period of time for the voters to either come to terms with it, to forget about it, or for it to work in a way that they can stand tall for having done it.

As far as blame for yesterday's embarrassment goes, I put it squarely on whoever is heading the Republican caucus (and whips) on this issue. Among the nays were both people acting simply for political reasons and people acting out of ideological principles.

But the bill should never have come to vote until both caucuses were sufficiently confident of passage. Either the Republican caucus failed to accurately count votes or they were unable to hold their internal agreements.

Cadaverous Pallor 09-30-2008 03:24 PM

GD's avatar makes all his posts sound stupid to me. :D

Moonliner 09-30-2008 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 243197)
GD's avatar makes all his posts sound stupid to me. :D

I don't think his avatar makes all his posts sound stupid.

sleepyjeff 09-30-2008 04:49 PM

You know, so many like to give Palin never ending grief when she stumbles a little facing reporters asking gotcha questions;

Yet, for some reason, Obama can stumble a little on his own(sans reporters) and that's ok?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omHUsRTYFAU


Todays vocabulary word is Teleprompterless :)

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 04:53 PM

At least he had actual thoughts to lose.

JWBear 09-30-2008 04:55 PM

Stumble a little?!? Dude, she fricking tumbled down a mountain!

Ghoulish Delight 09-30-2008 05:03 PM

Seriously, sleepyjeff, do you really want to start down the road of, "Does Obama have a worse grasp of the issues than Palin?" Seriously?

sleepyjeff 09-30-2008 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 243247)
Seriously, sleepyjeff, do you really want to start down the road of, "Does Obama have a worse grasp of the issues than Palin?" Seriously?



Palin stumbled going up against a couple of world class journalists who were setting her up with gotcha questions.....Obama tripped over his own tongue.

Palin looks like an idiot doing an interview with someone tyring to make her look like an idiot(imagine that)

Obama, even when confronted with a very friendly interviewer says things like "my Muslim Faith" and gets a pass on it(I am not saying he shouldn't get a pass on that but if he, someone who has been campainging for the #1 job for two or so years gets a pass shouldn't someone who has only been campaiging for a few weeks and the #2 job also get the same sort of pass?).

Gemini Cricket 09-30-2008 05:46 PM

Michelle Obama posted some thoughts on MOMocrats. I love her.
:)

Gemini Cricket 09-30-2008 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 243254)
Palin stumbled going up against a couple of world class journalists who were setting her up with gotcha questions.....Obama tripped over his own tongue.

Palin looks like an idiot doing an interview with someone tyring to make her look like an idiot(imagine that)

Obama, even when confronted with a very friendly interviewer says things like "my Muslim Faith" and gets a pass on it(I am not saying he shouldn't get a pass on that but if he, someone who has been campainging for the #1 job for two or so years gets a pass shouldn't someone who has only been campaiging for a few weeks and the #2 job also get the same sort of pass?).

"Gotcha journalism" "gotcha questions". Is it as easy as that? McCain brings up a label for something and now everyone is using that same label in lockstep from now on? Is this going to be like "media elite" and "activist judges" etc? Ugh. At least "Hope" and "Change" are used in a positive manner and not in a way to put things in a tidy box and then discounted.

I expect interviewers to be tough on candidates running for office. When it comes to someone running for office, Couric asked very simple questions, Gibson asked very simple questions... Palin didn't have any answers for them. "I'll get back to ya" is not a good response. O'Reilly grilled Obama and he handled it very well. Palin didn't "stumble". She fell on her face. Palin was widely panned by liberals and conservatives alike. I don't buy it that journalists are deliberately trying to Swift Boat Palin. That's a copout. She f'ed up big time. While we're at it, "Stumble" rubs me the same way "peppered" did. Give me a freakin' break.

When someone is coherent and on the money about something most of the time and trips up a few times, they get a buy in my book. When someone keeps tripping up over and over, I raise my eyebrows and say 'something's not right here'.

Tom 09-30-2008 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 243254)
Palin stumbled going up against a couple of world class journalists who were setting her up with gotcha questions.....

Are you serious? I just watched the Couric interview today. Those were not gotcha questions. Those were not hard questions. Palin embarrassed herself all on her own there.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 06:24 PM

Hope and change mean nothing. They are a campaign slogan. They are most certainly used to put things in a tidy little box.

Gibson was most certainly attempting to do "gotcha", and in fact made himself look like an idiot. The question about the "Bush doctrine" that he was so visibly disgusted that she didn't know what he was talking about, when in fact there have been 4 distinct Bush doctrines, and the one Gibson expanded upon isn't even regarded as the current one. I can post a link to a couple of write ups about it (Krauthammer did a good one) if anyone really is interested.

Couric asked Palin about a depression. Her words. Then she later jumped on palin for using the word depression about the economy (disclaimer - I did not actually see the Couric interview. This is what I read, and I do not recall who wrote it up. It is entirely possible that I am wrong about this one and apologize if I am. I don't have time nor the desire to watch Couric).

Palin certainly stumbles. No doubt. But she most definitely gets help doing it from some rather hostile members of the media.

Moonliner 09-30-2008 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COURIC
But he's been in Congress for 26 years. He's been chairman of the powerful Commerce Committee. And he has almost always sided with less regulation, not more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALIN
He's also known as the maverick, though. Taking shots from his own party, and certainly taking shots from the other party. Trying to get people to understand what he's been talking about — the need to reform government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by COURIC
I'm just going to ask you one more time, not to belabor the point. Specific examples in his 26 years of pushing for more regulation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALIN
I'll try to find you some, and I'll bring them to you.

How was that a "gotcha"?

scaeagles 09-30-2008 06:42 PM

If you are addressing me, that was not a gotcha in the least.

BarTopDancer 09-30-2008 06:52 PM

I highly recommend you want the SNL opening from last week to get a grasp of that interview. Much more entertaining then the actual interview.

Palin talks circles around the issue like a bad salesperson. It's sad that she can barely handle herself in an interview with the US media. How is she going to handle foreign press and leaders? She'll be eaten alive.

Cadaverous Pallor 09-30-2008 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 243239)
You know, so many like to give Palin never ending grief when she stumbles a little facing reporters asking gotcha questions;

Yet, for some reason, Obama can stumble a little on his own(sans reporters) and that's ok?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omHUsRTYFAU


Todays vocabulary word is Teleprompterless :)

Hoo boy, that's some cringe-worthy stuff there, no doubt about it. I guess he is human after all. ;)

I've been hearing a lot about how much time these candidates spend talking to people. That they do these townhall meetings, and outdoor speeches, then shake hands with spectators, visit local businesses and schools, and then do interviews on the bus, and another on the plane, and call in to radio shows, and sit down with news anchors.....

I heard on NPR this morning that Palin is mostly relegated to introducing McCain on stage, and has stuck to the same speech she gave at the convention, minus the "thanks but no thanks" and "sold the plane on ebay" which were both false. They said she doesn't do any townhall meetings, any lunches with the public or other appearances. The report made it sound like this isn't what a VP nom should be doing.

I found a blog about Biden, and it does seem he's not tethered to Obama at all.

I tried to find a blog about Palin's activities and found this. Heh, kinda funny. But I didn't find anything else.

In any case, if Palin doesn't answer questions from the public and is only trotted out as MC for McC, while Obama does townhalls and shaking hands in restaurants and all the rest, then it's guaranteed that he's going to have more gaffes and blind spots.

In addition, it's not like Palin blew just one question of the Couric interview. She blew a good 75% of it (and I think that's generous). She was a deer in headlights.

As Tom says - these were valid, sensible questions. She looked like a moron.

Motorboat Cruiser 09-30-2008 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 243273)
Are you serious? I just watched the Couric interview today. Those were not gotcha questions. Those were not hard questions. Palin embarrassed herself all on her own there.

I don't know. This question was particularly difficult, and obviously one of those setups we keep hearing about.

Quote:

COURIC: And when it comes to establishing your world view, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this — to stay informed and to understand the world?

PALIN: I’ve read most of them again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media —

COURIC: But what ones specifically? I’m curious.

PALIN: Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years.

COURIC: Can you name any of them?

PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news.
;) I mean, who could expect anyone to know the answer to that? Talk about unfair...

JWBear 09-30-2008 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243276)
(disclaimer - I did not actually see the Couric interview. This is what I read, and I do not recall who wrote it up. It is entirely possible that I am wrong about this one and apologize if I am. I don't have time nor the desire to watch Couric).

I really wouldn't try defending her if you haven't watched it.

innerSpaceman 09-30-2008 08:09 PM

I can't believe I'm reading this. I don't know if it was 3894 in this thread or another, but the study about conservatives who simply dig in when presented with evidence contrary to their wishful worldview has apparently come home to roost among the couple of conservatives we have here, whom I have otherwise come to respect for some modicum of intelligence and integrity.


Please, sleepy and scaeagles, give it up on defendaing Sarah Palin. I can't believe everyone else here is wasting their time and fingertips explaining to you how the sun rises in the east, but also am appreciative of the massive solar rising evidence gathered here in one easy place.


I'm not going to waste any more of my particular fingertips on this subject. If we want to talk about how hot it is at noon, which IS debatable, then fine. But Palin sucking at interviews and the sun rising in the east are two absolutes I will no longer bother with ... and with all due respect I suggest the rest of you stop trying to convince these two ultra-stubborn individuals otherwise.


Check the study that 3894 linked to. There's just no point arguing, er, talking to such people.


I'm ashamed of both of you. You can do better than this.


scaeagles, if you change the subject one more time to try and deflect some criticism you're not happy with, I'm going to put you on Ignore till the election is over. Jeebus.


sleepyjeff, you on the other hand, have drunk far too much kool-aid, and your statements are so absurd that I don't have to bother ignoring them. They are almost gibberish of a foreign language.



Sorry to get too personal. But this is your guys' lowest hour.

Gemini Cricket 09-30-2008 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243276)
(disclaimer - I did not actually see the Couric interview. This is what I read, and I do not recall who wrote it up. It is entirely possible that I am wrong about this one and apologize if I am. I don't have time nor the desire to watch Couric).

Then you should have no opinion on the subject, imho.
Not seeing it nullifies your take on the interview.

That was like me arguing about The Passion of the Christ without even seeing it. I said, how can I have an opinion without doing the homework? So I saw it and then continued my rant...
;)

Gemini Cricket 09-30-2008 08:24 PM

On another note, I had a wonderful conversation with Mum about politics tonight. It didn't get heated and we both were very cordial to each other. She worries about Palin's readiness to lead and is concerned about McCain's temper. She wants to like Obama, but she thinks he's not as smart as JFK. She also thinks that Michelle Obama is going to be another Hillary Clinton and be a puppeteer.

I asked her if she believed the silly rumor about Obama being a Muslim. And she said at first she did but is questioning it because there is no proof. I told her that he says he's a Christian. She wanted to know how long he was a Christian. I said it didn't matter, born again Christians are brand new and embraced by other Christians, so even if he was a 'new Christian' it shouldn't matter... Christian is Christian...

The most important part was that she was actually listening to my take on Obama. It was refreshing.

She honestly is considering protest voting. Leaving it blank. Which was interesting to hear. She is a die hard Republican (although she voted for Carter twice and loves loves loves JFK).

Oh, and she thought it was rude that McCain didn't look at Obama during the debate. She said she kept yelling at the TV for him to do just that.

scaeagles 09-30-2008 08:48 PM

Hey ISM - I don't know how I changed the subject. Seriously.

sleepyjeff 09-30-2008 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 243283)
In any case, if Palin doesn't answer questions from the public and is only trotted out as MC for McC, while Obama does townhalls and shaking hands in restaurants and all the rest, then it's guaranteed that he's going to have more gaffes and blind spots.

I am torn here.....my initial reaction to this portion of your response is "good point, mathematically speaking Obama is probably making far less mistakes percentage wise than Palin based on the fact that he indeed is speaking far more than her"......

but, ...it's been pointed out that I am incapable of conceding a point and must dig my heels in, drink kool aid, write gibberish, etc.

What to do, what to do?

tracilicious 09-30-2008 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff (Post 243317)
I am torn here.....my initial reaction to this portion of your response is "good point, mathematically speaking Obama is probably making far less mistakes percentage wise than Palin based on the fact that he indeed is speaking far more than her"......

In all fairness to iSm, if I had read this post from you I'd have to wonder if my browser were somehow mixing up posts with usernames. It's not exactly typical...

sleepyjeff 10-01-2008 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracilicious (Post 243329)
In all fairness to iSm, if I had read this post from you I'd have to wonder if my browser were somehow mixing up posts with usernames. It's not exactly typical...

Now I am torn again.....If I point out that just within my last 30 posts or so you will find me conceding on several points, it looks like I can't even agree with someone on something as mundane as ~what is typical~ but if I don't point that out than I am conceding that I rarely concede.....I am so confused;)

scaeagles 10-01-2008 04:50 AM

Obama is starting to move into landslide territory. Realclearpolitics shows him up by 158 electorals.

(psst....ISM....I suppose you may consider this a change in the subject, but since it is something that says Obama is doing well, I'm hoping you'll excuse it.)

lashbear 10-01-2008 05:15 AM

Isn't this thing over yet ???

...Geez, you USA'uns know how to spin out elections, don't ya ??

:p

Strangler Lewis 10-01-2008 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243276)
The question about the "Bush doctrine" that he was so visibly disgusted that she didn't know what he was talking about, when in fact there have been 4 distinct Bush doctrines, and the one Gibson expanded upon isn't even regarded as the current one. I can post a link to a couple of write ups about it (Krauthammer did a good one) if anyone really is interested.

I read the Krauthammer piece, and my reaction then and now is that watching her answer, she couldn't have named any of them. Otherwise, she would have responded that his question was vague and explained why it was vague: "Well, Charlie, that's a phrase that's been thrown around a lot. Which Bush doctrine are you talking about? The one where . . ." And so on.

scaeagles 10-01-2008 06:25 AM

I certainly agree, Strangler. She isn't coming off as even a little bright. I would figure (hope?) she's smarter than she is interviewing.

My point wasn't that she would have been able to answer if it were more clear, it was Gibson's arrogance.

To be sure everyone understands what I'm saying, every politician needs to be able to deal with a hostile media, because even those that are loved one moment will be hated the next. Gotta be ready for it. She is not doing well. However, she's at a stage right now where I think the media ingeneral wants her to fail, and she isn't handling any of it well. Her fault. Her fault. Her fault. I write that three times so no one accuses me of trying to be a kool aid drinking synchophant (sp?). Once again, her fault.

Cadaverous Pallor 10-01-2008 07:46 AM

Sorry, Leo, but if you haven't seen the Couric interview, I'd say you have no room to speak about Palin anymore at all. It's not something you can absorb from elsewhere, you must see it to believe it. It's an undeniably awful, embarrassing, incredible moment in American politics.

scaeagles 10-01-2008 08:13 AM

Fair enough. This is why I gave a very lengthy disclaimer, though, and only offered one thing I had read, which was very specific rather than anything about her overall performance.

I am planning on watching the debate Friday. After I watch that am I free to comment on her again?

Betty 10-01-2008 08:40 AM

I thought the debate was Thursday... ?

JWBear 10-01-2008 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 243359)
I thought the debate was Thursday... ?

It is, but Gov Palin is planning on showing up on Friday... ("What? You mean today isn't Thursday? Oh, darn!")

scaeagles 10-01-2008 08:48 AM

HA! Contrary to what will probably be believed here, that was not an intentional attempt to deceive so you would all miss it.

Snowflake 10-01-2008 08:52 AM

Latest polls for today
 
1 Attachment(s)
This is the first I've seen of everything being +Obama across the board.
Attachment 730
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/

Of course, polls don't mean sh!t, but I find it encouraging and they are fun to look at. I'm going to be very curious post-VP debate (providing Joe does not put his foot in his mouth) is there will be an even larger point spread.

scaeagles 10-01-2008 09:24 AM

I think they reflect some nervousness on the part of undecideds on Palin and her shakiness. I don't think it depends on Biden at all....If Palin has a good show, McCain/Palin gets a boost. If she continues on her current path, it could be over.

Ghoulish Delight 10-01-2008 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243383)
I think they reflect some nervousness on the part of undecideds on Palin and her shakiness.

I think it reflects nervousness on the part of undecideds on McCain's shakiness.

Tom 10-01-2008 09:41 AM

There are also some Quinnipiac state polls out today that have Obama up 8 in Ohio, 8 in Florida, and 15 in Pennsylvania. Those are bigger margins than other polls of those states have shown recently, but if they're even close then Obama would really be pulling away.

McCain needs to turn this around fast if he's going to have any chance. I would guess that we will be hearing about reverend Wright in the not-too-far-off future.

innerSpaceman 10-01-2008 09:43 AM

Um, too late for that. If you live in a swing state, you are already getting anonymous faxes and computerized telephone calls with misleading info about Reverand Wright and every other faux Obamination.


I thank the gods we live in California where campaigns and the underbelly of unaccountable supporters don't bother. Oh, and those unaccountable supporters have, of course, found loopholes in the law that allow them to escape the financial disclosures of the last election cycle. They are now completely unaccountable - and thus more disgusting and despicable in their conduct than ever before.


Kiss the ground in California, my friends.

Gemini Cricket 10-01-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 243395)
McCain needs to turn this around fast if he's going to have any chance. I would guess that we will be hearing about reverend Wright in the not-too-far-off future.

I'm worried that this will happen:
The October surprise will be Palin announcing she is dropping out to spend more time with her family. McCain replaces her with someone like Mitt Romney. This reignites the McCain base and gives him the oomph to win the election.
It's Rove-ian. I wouldn't put it past them...

Strangler Lewis 10-01-2008 10:31 AM

I've thought the same thing, but with Huckabee, not Romney storming out of the dressing room like Hulk Hogan to energize the base.

I comfort myself with the thought that they both want to run in 2012, and they won't think that being the VP on a losing ticket will be a big resume booster.

scaeagles 10-01-2008 11:50 AM

That's been a rumor with Hillary replacing Biden as well.

Tenigma 10-01-2008 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 243399)
I'm worried that this will happen:
The October surprise will be Palin announcing she is dropping out to spend more time with her family. McCain replaces her with someone like Mitt Romney. This reignites the McCain base and gives him the oomph to win the election.
It's Rove-ian. I wouldn't put it past them...

Too many twists and turns on this journey already. All it shows to me is that McCain is impetuous and is not ready (or is too old and flumoxed) to lead our country. He probably would've been way better than Bush had he won in 2000. But I think he's past his time.

Whether Palin drops out may really depend on how she does in the debates tomorrow. If she does relatively OK (which I predict she will), she will be bolstered enough to stay. If she is as bad as she was with Katie Couric, then I think their numbers will drop even further and it will be really embarrassing.

The thing is, Palin galvanized the Republican core, strengthened the female conservative vote. If you replace Palin with either Romney or Huckabee, McCain will alienate that very core, and it will be total chaos. I don't know that he will be able to recover.

I really blame McCain in all this. It reminds me a lot of Team Hillary in the last months leading up to the last primary elections... she got thrown a curve ball after the February primaries and she never fully recovered, and she wound up with very little game plan except to mostly lob overripe tomatoes at Obama.

McCain seems to be changing and morphine every day. It's hard to keep up, and this is coming from someone who reads (or at least skims the headlines) multiple times a day. I mean, he made a HUGE deal about postponing the campaign to go and be the hero and get the bailout bill passed. He threatened to not attend the debate. Obama didn't bite. McCain finally gives in and shows up, and then McCain goes "back to Washington" but he's actually caught out of town when the vote finally came down... and it didn't pass. And then his team had the temerity to blame "Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and the other Democrats" for the failure of the bill, when in fact it was his own inability to rein in his own party members.

There are a lot of TRUE conservative Republicans in Congress and neither Bush nor McCain has their support. Forget "bipartisan," McCain is simply disliked by most in Congress, it seems; and he sounds like the inept high school principal nobody listens to while everyone's busy having a food fight in the cafeteria.

All of this makes him look b-a-d. Swapping Palin with a Huckabee or Romney is not going to help. He's quickly running out of footballs to toss for his Hail Marys.

...I wouldn't put it past him to pull ANY stunt at this point, but to me it just shows how they're completely devolving.

Gemini Cricket 10-01-2008 12:20 PM

Excellent points, Lani.
:)

scaeagles 10-01-2008 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenigma (Post 243464)
There are a lot of TRUE conservative Republicans in Congress and neither Bush nor McCain has their support.

Please see my avatar.

Gemini Cricket 10-01-2008 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243468)
Please see my avatar.

I see a celebrity in your avatar.
;)

scaeagles 10-01-2008 12:24 PM

Please don't accuse me of changing the subject. This is the Obama thread, this is sort of about Obama.

Is anyone else creeped out by the children singing about Obama? Seen the Youtube ideo? I don't happen to have a link handy, but it's not hard ot find.

scaeagles 10-01-2008 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 243470)
I see a celebrity in your avatar.
;)


I see the last of the true conservatives. Need a crying smilie (oxymoron?).

Strangler Lewis 10-01-2008 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243468)
Please see my avatar.

Who's he on the stump for? I thought he was under the stump.

Speaking frivolously of dead presidents, just as there have been simulated tournaments between the greatest heavyweights and the greatest baseball teams, has their ever been a tournament of mock elections to figure out who'd be elected the greatest president ever? Interesting idea. (Thank you, SL) Would it be done by ignoring party affiliation? If not, some might complain, Reagan would have to face Lincoln before the finals. Or would Lincoln be recharacterized as a Democrat?

Carry on.

JWBear 10-01-2008 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenigma (Post 243464)
McCain seems to be changing and morphine every day.

That explains a lot... ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 243474)
Or would Lincoln be recharacterized as a Democrat?

I don't know about Lincoln, but Teddy Rooseveldt sure would!

innerSpaceman 10-01-2008 12:49 PM

Leo, for the record, I'm not accusing you of changing the subject. I'm accusing you of constantly responding to a criticism with a different or similar criticism of another person. It's a poor tactic to say, well Joe Schmoe should be excused because so-and-so did something similar or worse.

That is (most times) completely besides the point. To say, But, waaa, the Democrats did bad thing "B" does not excuse the Republicans from doing bad thing "A." And responding that Joe Biden put his foot in his mouth is not a valid refutation of Sarah Palin putting her foot in her mouth.


It's perfectly valid to bring up any of these things. But to constantly bring them up to deflect criticism you don't like of entirely other people or persons is really rather infantile.


Please reconsider.

Gn2Dlnd 10-01-2008 12:54 PM

Bully!

Morrigoon 10-01-2008 12:54 PM

Ew. I hope the Hillary-replaces-Biden thing stays merely rumor. Else I'll have to reconsider my vote.

Ghoulish Delight 10-01-2008 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243471)
Please don't accuse me of changing the subject. This is the Obama thread, this is sort of about Obama.

Is anyone else creeped out by the children singing about Obama? Seen the Youtube ideo? I don't happen to have a link handy, but it's not hard ot find.

I haven't seen the video, but I'm generally creeped out by children as performers in any context so I imagine I would be.

Strangler Lewis 10-01-2008 01:16 PM

Sight unseen, I will concede the impropriety of using children as props in any political campaign, be it small-worldy-sounding songs for Obama or as sign-carrying "evidence" at anti-choice demonstrations.

flippyshark 10-01-2008 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 243505)
I haven't seen the video, but I'm generally creeped out by children as performers in any context so I imagine I would be.

You'd best avoid Bugsy Malone then.

I agree that using kids as performers for political and/or religious advocacy is manipulative and awful.

Tenigma 10-01-2008 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 243471)
Is anyone else creeped out by the children singing about Obama? Seen the Youtube ideo? I don't happen to have a link handy, but it's not hard ot find.

Yes, completely creepy. Drudge linked to it with a tag that said "Children sing for dear leader." I think he also under the Obama video, had a link to a bunch of North Korean children singing for their leader, as well.

There was a time when Drudge posted positive links about Obama. Now he routinely ignores controversial stories... Troopergate would otherwise be HUGE (I just have to read Mudflats instead).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 243474)
Who's he on the stump for? I thought he was under the stump.

Ouch! Hey, the poor guy's dead, let him rest with his jar of Jelly Bellys

scaeagles 10-01-2008 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 243488)
Leo, for the record, I'm not accusing you of changing the subject.

Please reconsider.

OK.

To be honest, I don't even know how I did that in relation to your post, unless you were referring to my comment on "hope" and "change", which was only made because GC mentioned those terms.

innerSpaceman 10-01-2008 04:19 PM

No, no. I'm not talking about a specific post. I'm talking about a pattern developing over many posts, throughout many threads, over many days.

scaeagles 10-01-2008 04:38 PM

Me??? Well, you should see what MBC's been doing! :)

Tom 10-01-2008 08:08 PM

From Politico.com:

Quote:

Channel 73 on the Dish Network is now The Obama Channel.

Three readers from different parts of the country email that Channel 073-00 on the Dish Network is now labeled OBAMA... The channel plays his two-minute ad laying out his economic plan on a loop, over and over.

...a Dish Network executive emailed to reassure the user that it "is paid advertising by the Obama campaign and is not an endorsement of Senator Obama by DISH Network" and will broadcast through November 4.

JWBear 10-02-2008 10:36 AM

Obama and Bartlett

innerSpaceman 10-02-2008 11:24 AM

^ HYSTERICAL! :D

cirquelover 10-02-2008 11:26 AM

Gary was watching the Obama channel last night and it is actually more than a two minute loop. I caught a mini biography of him and also him explaining the new bailout. Although then they go to the loop in between other short stories.

I commented that he must have paid a fortune for that privelege and also asked if there was a McCain one too. There is not.

JWBear 10-02-2008 12:13 PM

God! I wish Jed Bartlett was running for President! He'd make short work of McCain and Palin. (And with his Nobel Prize in economics, he could easily solve the economic chrisis as well!)

Cadaverous Pallor 10-03-2008 12:52 PM

Thought I'd post some positive news. That's a lot of blue.

We'll see what the debate does, though reports are currently saying that it will do nothing.

Ghoulish Delight 10-04-2008 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 243395)
McCain needs to turn this around fast if he's going to have any chance. I would guess that we will be hearing about reverend Wright in the not-too-far-off future.

Good call:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27018572/

Quote:

"We're going to get a little tougher," a senior Republican operative said, indicating that a fresh batch of television ads is coming. "We've got to question this guy's associations. Very soon. There's no question that we have to change the subject here," said the operative, who was not authorized to discuss strategy and spoke on the condition of anonymity.
Hopefully if Wright's name resurfaces, the name Kalnins pops up right behind it. Not that I give a crap what Kalnins has said, but if they're going to bring up irrelevant views of someone other than the candidate, then it's fair game to fight fire with fire.

Gemini Cricket 10-04-2008 12:04 PM

I got some sh!t from a frat boy and friends in an Expedition in the Angels' parking lot last night for having an Obama sticker on my car.
"NObama!" He kept chanting as he drove next to me all the way out to Gene Autry Way. I just smiled and ignored his ass.
I hope Obama wins. It'll wipe that smile off of that f*cker's self-righteous face.

btw - I'm going to get an official Obama sticker for my car instead of the free MoveOn.org one I got in the mail...
:)

innerSpaceman 10-04-2008 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight
then it's fair game to fight fire with fire.

You know Obama's going to stay above all that, and appear (and likely be) calm and collected. Maybe that didn't work for Kerry, but it seems to be working very well for Obama as a cool head in a time of crisis, and frantic mudslinging by the McCain camp will likely look like more flailing around.


Pfft, i also think it's going to be very hard to "change the subject" from American financial collapse in the next four weeks.

Ghoulish Delight 10-04-2008 12:14 PM

Oh, I don't expect Obama to join, but his surrogates are free to.

Tenigma 10-05-2008 04:21 AM

Bruce Springsteen in an acoustic concert in Philly on Saturday for a voter registration rally sponsored by the Obama campaign.

He took a few minutes out to talk to the audience (tens of thousands but I haven't seen an estimate) about why he's voting for Barack Obama:

"I've spent 35 years writing about America and its people and the meaning of the American promise , a promise handed down right here in this city," said the New Jersey rocker, whose songs often depict down-on-their-luck, working-class dreamers. "Our everyday citizens ... have justifiably lost faith in its meaning."

BDBopper 10-05-2008 07:15 AM

I am starting to hear rumors of an October surprise of massive proportions. the rumors are being fueled by Joe Biden canceling campaign appearances to deal with an illness in his family. The rumor is that Biden is about to step down with Hillary Clinton to replace him.

No matter how unlikely what would your opinion of such a move be? I think Obama would be making a mistake of seismic proportions. He's in the cat bird's seat. To use a sports analogy he is up by a field goal with two minutes left to go in the game, McCain has no time outs and Obama has the ball. If his VP is replaced that would be like carelessly passing the ball instead of running the clock out and winning the game. Such a move would have to be seen as one in unneeded desperation.

scaeagles 10-05-2008 07:29 AM

That rumor has been circulated for quite a while and I put no credence to it whatsoever, particularly with sizable Obama lead.

Cadaverous Pallor 10-05-2008 03:54 PM

No way they'd do that. It's stupid.

BDBopper 10-05-2008 06:17 PM

Was just watching "Huckabee" on Fox News and during the half-hour news break they mentioned that Joe Biden's mother-in-law has just passed away. :( My condolences go out to him and his family on their loss.

Alex 10-05-2008 07:22 PM

I think it was earlier in this thread that we discussed polling flaws and whatnot. The poitn was made about the pollsters being pros at their jobs and doing the best to adjust for the difficulties of random sample polling.

I agree with that idea, and the difficulty is that while you know some polls will be wrong, it is difficult to know which ones. Anyway, an interesting case in point.

Two surveys for Minnesota. Same polling period. Star Tribune has Obama up by 18 in that state. SurveyUSA has McCain up by 1. Anyway, found it interesting.

bewitched 10-05-2008 08:14 PM

As much as I would love Clinton on the ticket, I think it is far more likely that Palin would have some kind of "emergency."

That said, I think the chance of either VP choice bailing, with 1 month left, is nil to less than nil.

scaeagles 10-05-2008 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 244349)
Two surveys for Minnesota. Same polling period. Star Tribune has Obama up by 18 in that state. SurveyUSA has McCain up by 1. Anyway, found it interesting.

That is an amazing gap.

BDBopper 10-06-2008 05:03 AM

I don't think either poll seems to be accurate. I predict a 5 percent win for Obama in Minnesota. Still close but but as close as it was there during 2000 and 2004.

Gemini Cricket 10-06-2008 10:54 AM

Homer Simpson tries to vote for Obama

Ghoulish Delight 10-06-2008 11:08 AM

At this point, Obama is where Bush was, from an electoral standpoint, against both Gore and Kerry. All he has to do is hold all the blue states, and win a small handful of toss-ups (all leaning his direction right now) and he has more than 270. McCain will have to hold all the red states, and either take a blue state or take every single toss-up state (all of which are leaning Obama). Not outside the realm of possibility, Kerry and Gore came vey close to pulling it off, but they didn't, the odds are long.

Cadaverous Pallor 10-06-2008 12:58 PM

I don't think I can hold my breath for a whole month more

Tenigma 10-06-2008 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDBopper (Post 244264)
I am starting to hear rumors of an October surprise of massive proportions. the rumors are being fueled by Joe Biden canceling campaign appearances to deal with an illness in his family. The rumor is that Biden is about to step down with Hillary Clinton to replace him.

As others have mentioned, Joe Biden has cancelled public appearances for today and tomorrow because his mother-in-law passed away.

The October surprise is basically that McCain's advertising has been confirmed as going 100% NEGATIVE. They are basically throwing in the kitchen sink, which is what was happening with Camp Hillary in the last month of the primaries.

Palin, as "the wolverine biting at the pant leg of passersby," she has revisited the relationship of Obama with Bill Ayers, starting with her stumping this weekend. She also started mentioning Jeremiah Wright. I'm sure it won't be long before she's also mentioning Rezko.

If nothing else, I'm going to tip my hat to Hillary for vetting all this stuff out on Obama during the primaries. It means none of this is new news, which means it makes Palin just look like she's slinging monkey-poo.

The thing is, Team Hillary was at least smart about the way they did it. Camp McCain, not so much. They were either so insecure or so gleeful that McCain finally gave the go-ahead, that THEY COULDN'T CONTAIN THIS INFORMATION. As the news media was going into the weekend, Republican operatives LEAKED THIS INFORMATION to the media (that McCain's campaign was going to start hitting Obama below the belt).

This gave Obama a huge hand, because they immediately went to work on readjusting their plans for this week. They almost immediately posted a 30-second teaser about McCain's associations with Keating in the Keating 5 savings and loan scandal from the early 1990s.

The Obama campaign released a 12-minute+ video on YouTube today that talked about McCain's association with Keating, and explaining how this is where McCain came from, and talking about McCain's history of wanting DEREGULATION (less government overnight) rather than MORE oversight, which is what McCain is currently trumpeting.

I'm sure Obama won't go completely negative (you don't go negative when you're leading the polls) but there are pro-Obama people who will gladly remind you about Todd and Sarah Palin's associations with an extremist organization in Alaska that condones "domestic terrorism" and wants Alaska to secede from the United States (how patriotic is that?). There's also a pastor that McCain is associated with, who is just as radical and crazy as Jeremiah Wright... in fact it's one of the reasons McCain told his campaign staff relatively early on NOT to touch the Wright issue because he knew that would come home to roost on his nest.

...

The numbers are amazing. I've been going to the barackobama.com site almost everyday now for a year, and you could see how little seeds kept getting planted. One of those little seeds happened earlier this spring, when, even though he hadn't won the primaries yet, he started reaching out to prep for the general election campaign by getting a very very very large and extensive grassroots volunteer force set up in all 50 states. There was a huge drive to get volunteers. Because volunteers are way cheaper than paying for TV advertising, and they are far more effective... nothing as effective as your neighbor chatting with you about the economy and the future, and who to vote for.

These little seedlings are sprouting all over the country. Even in states where it was assumed that there was no chance for a Democrat to win, they still worked the ground. What it did was force the McCain campaign to have to spread itself extraordinarily thin. A good example? Nebraska. Oh my god, let me tell you about Nebraska.

Nebraska has not voted for a Democrat in like 6,000 years (back when man walked among the dinosaurs, as Gov. Palin would tell ya). But unlike a lot of other states, Nebraska does not use a winner-take-all system for the general. They've broken into three precincts. Two of them offer up two electoral votes, and the third offers up just a single one.

But see, the Obama people have been working Nebraska hard. Because if they can even capture a couple of those electoral votes, that could make the difference in the event of a near-tie.

Is Team McCain worried? You betcha! They aren't just putting TV ads in Nebraska. They're sending their big gun: Sarah Palin HERSELF is going to Nebraska to stump this week. For a state that has traditionally been a given for the Republicans, sending Ms. Rising Star herself? UNPRECEDENTED.

A lot of different scenarios can happen for this election. In the worst case, it may be a tie (which Congress has to break). But I think all those seedlings the Obama campaign planted will come to bear fruit.

It's quite possible we will even turn red states into blue. Just imagine. Nebraska. Georgia. Florida. VIRGINIA.

Tom 10-06-2008 02:32 PM

Great post, Tenigma! Thanks or all the info and enthusiasm.

Unfortunately, though, you were a little off on the vote allocation in Nebraska. They give two electoral votes to the candidate who wins statewide, and one electoral apiece vote for the winner of each of the state's three congressional districts. There is a possibility that Obama could be competitive in the states second Congressional district, which includes Omaha.

To back up your final point, I saw two(!) polls today that had Obama up by double digits in Virginia.

Snowflake 10-06-2008 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 244509)
Great post, Tenigma! Thanks or all the info and enthusiasm.

Ditto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 244509)
To back up your final point, I saw two(!) polls today that had Obama up by double digits in Virginia.

:-) Big grin here.
In my neighborhood when I lived in Warrenton, I was the sole blue dot in a sea of red!

Morrigoon 10-06-2008 02:38 PM

Speaking of Omaha, where's Warren Buffett stand on this election? Is he going for Obama? (if I recall he's actually a democrat, isn't he?)

Alex 10-06-2008 02:44 PM

Warren Buffet has endorsed Obama.

innerSpaceman 10-06-2008 02:45 PM

So, do we want Obama to win badly enough that we'd like the entire economy to tank? For millions of people to lose their jobs? For fiscal conditions that will completely cripple the next Administration no matter who wins?

Morrigoon 10-06-2008 02:54 PM

Because Buffett's wrong SO often where the economy is concerned.

Ghoulish Delight 10-06-2008 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 244515)
So, do we want Obama to win badly enough that we'd like the entire economy to tank? For millions of people to lose their jobs? For fiscal conditions that will completely cripple the next Administration no matter who wins?

Huh? What does one have to do with the other?

Scrooge McSam 10-06-2008 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 244515)
So, do we want Obama to win badly enough that we'd like the entire economy to tank? For millions of people to lose their jobs? For fiscal conditions that will completely cripple the next Administration no matter who wins?


Who are you talking to?

Tenigma 10-06-2008 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 244509)
Unfortunately, though, you were a little off on the vote allocation in Nebraska.

Oh thank you for the correction! I also said "precinct" when I meant congressional district.

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 244515)
So, do we want Obama to win badly enough that we'd like the entire economy to tank?

I don't think anything will change in the economy right now regardless of whether we want Obama or McCain to win. Listening to the news today, though, it looks like the ripples are hitting Europe, and even one bank in China.

Gemini Cricket 10-06-2008 03:17 PM

From the Huffington Post:
30 Lies Refuted About Ayers and Obama

Snowflake 10-06-2008 03:25 PM

How's this for an October surprise?
 
Taliban split with al Qaeda, seek peace
By Nic Robertson
CNN Senior International Correspondent

Quote:

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Taliban leaders are holding Saudi-brokered talks with the Afghan government to end the country's bloody conflict -- and are severing their ties with al Qaeda, sources close to the historic discussions have told CNN.


King Abdullah of Saudia Arabia hosted meetings between the Afghan government and the Taliban, a source says.

The militia, which has been intensifying its attacks on the U.S.-led coalition that toppled it from power in 2001 for harboring Osama bin Laden's terrorist network, has been involved four days of talks hosted by Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, says the source.

The talks -- the first of their kind aimed at resolving the lengthy conflict in Afghanistan -- mark a significant move by the Saudi leadership to take a direct role in Afghanistan, hosting delegates who have until recently been their enemies.

Article Here

If mods think of a better place for this, please move it. I was not sure where to put it.

innerSpaceman 10-06-2008 03:41 PM

To answer GD's HUH and Scrooge's WHO .... it's the economic disaster that's putting this in the bag for Obama. There's 2 days less than a month to go. The economy is not going to stand still during that time. It's either going to get worse for the nation and thus better for Obama (which, yes, I believer would ultimately be better for the nation), or it's going to get better and dissolve Obama's distinct advantage.


And that's not directed to anyone in particular. Just a Sophie's choice presented to anyone to ponder.

Ghoulish Delight 10-06-2008 03:47 PM

Oh, is that what you meant.

First of all, the economy is not going to magically heal itself in the next month no matter what. Even if the bleeding stops, it will take a long time for a full recovery. The odds of a sudden turn around and everyone saying, "OMG, McCain really DID go fix everything!" are nil.

Second of all, even in the event of a more realistic turn around, where the bleeding stops and things level out, or even begin the slow climb back uphill, I would be beyond shocked if that were enough to turn things around for McCain. The damage has already been done, McCain has already shown that he's ill prepared to handle himself under economic pressure. From, "The economy is sound," to, "I'm suspending my campaign to do campaign interviews about suspending my campaign, to the Linda Blair routine("I'm proud to have made this bill pass." "This bill is crap, Bush needs to veto it!" "Obama phoned it in while I went there and made this bill happen." "Veto Veto Veto!!!"), no one is buying it.

Alex 10-06-2008 03:53 PM

If the choice is:

A. Obama presidency and anything close to the worst case scenario being presented economically.

B. McCain presidency and a healthy return to a 2004 economy.

I would, without hesitation pick B. Now, I don't think that is at all the option we're facing, but if God came down and said "I'm existing for a few minutes for the sole purpose of putting this choice on your shoulders..." then that is how I'd go.

Ghoulish Delight 10-06-2008 03:56 PM

Put that way, yes, I suppose I agree. I'm not sitting here rooting for utter economic meltdown so that Obama can win.

innerSpaceman 10-06-2008 04:49 PM

Yeah, that's sorta what I meant. I was halfway cheering economic woes for people just so they'd see the light about McCain. I felt bad about it.

Morrigoon 10-07-2008 10:30 AM

I'm a little disappointed that the Obama camp is stooping to McCain's level:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27062761/

innerSpaceman 10-07-2008 10:49 AM

Personally, I'm thrilled.


Everyone complained when Kerry got his asz swiftboated into oblivion by being above the fray. Now that swiftboating is a freaking VERB ... I don't want even the likes of cool and collected Obama to just sit there and take it.


If John McCain wants guilt-by-association ... he made a very, very, very bad choice. McCain's got some truly dicey associations, and I hope the Obama camp outs every one of them.

BTW, I don't mind them saying, while they do so, that guilt by association is retarded ... but since McCain brought it up, here's some of the villains he's done business with over the years of his long maverickhood.

Snowflake 10-07-2008 11:31 AM

[quote=Snowflake;244531]Taliban split with al Qaeda, seek peace

This has been disproved and denied. Sorry, CNN (and me) made a boo-boo

innerSpaceman 10-07-2008 11:41 AM

Like I ever believed that for a second anyway. But why is this in the Obama thread? Are you saying he's a muslim terrorist?

Morrigoon 10-07-2008 11:50 AM

I just got a call from the Obama campaign looking for phone bank volunteers. They have an office in Mission Viejo (corner of Los Alisos and Trabuco) that's open from:

10a-9p weekdays
11a-9p weekends

The phone number there is 949-584-5819. They have a calendar you can sign up on, but he said walk-in volunteers are welcome as well.

You guys up for a little campaigning?

Moonliner 10-07-2008 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 244670)
I just got a call from the Obama campaign looking for phone bank volunteers. They have an office in Mission Viejo (corner of Los Alisos and Trabuco) that's open from:

10a-9p weekdays
11a-9p weekends

The phone number there is 949-584-5819. They have a calendar you can sign up on, but he said walk-in volunteers are welcome as well.

You guys up for a little campaigning?

Sure. That could be a helluva lot of fun. For a little bit at least...

wendybeth 10-07-2008 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 244509)
.......I saw two(!) polls today that had Obama up by double digits in Virginia.



That's because Virginia is Communistland.;)

JWBear 10-07-2008 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 244652)
Personally, I'm thrilled.


Everyone complained when Kerry got his asz swiftboated into oblivion by being above the fray. Now that swiftboating is a freaking VERB ... I don't want even the likes of cool and collected Obama to just sit there and take it.


If John McCain wants guilt-by-association ... he made a very, very, very bad choice. McCain's got some truly dicey associations, and I hope the Obama camp outs every one of them.

BTW, I don't mind them saying, while they do so, that guilt by association is retarded ... but since McCain brought it up, here's some of the villains he's done business with over the years of his long maverickhood.

Unfortunately, ties to an ultra right-wing fascist organization will only make him more popular with his base…

innerSpaceman 10-07-2008 12:45 PM

His base doesn't matter. He's already got that covered with Sarah Palin. Yes, that's been a very good weapon for him. His demoralized base which might have sat home WILL be coming out to vote for Palin.

But this election is all up to the four undecided white women who live in the middle of nowhere. I don't know how they feel about facism.

JWBear 10-07-2008 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 244688)
His base doesn't matter. He's already got that covered with Sarah Palin. Yes, that's been a very good weapon for him. His demoralized base which might have sat home WILL be coming out to vote for Palin.

But this election is all up to the four undecided white women who live in the middle of nowhere. I don't know how they feel about facism.

(pssst... iSm, it was a joke....)

innerSpaceman 10-07-2008 01:24 PM

Is it ok if I picture Mr. Avatar whispering "pssst ... iSm" in my ear?

JWBear 10-07-2008 01:27 PM

Absolutely. ;)

Strangler Lewis 10-07-2008 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 244688)
But this election is all up to the four undecided white women who live in the middle of nowhere. I don't know how they feel about facism.

Depends. Are they pretty?
Or are they plain, Starbuck?

Ghoulish Delight 10-09-2008 09:47 AM

Wait, I'm confused, which candidate is the one that's supposed to not be ready to lead on day 1?

Morrigoon 10-09-2008 09:50 AM

Polls, polls and more polls...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26981780/

Ghoulish Delight 10-09-2008 09:56 AM

It looks like the idiots may cancel each other out. According to Gallup polling, while 6% say Obama's race makes them less likely to vote for him, 9% say it makes them more likely to. If you figure, as most people have been, that there's a chunk of folks who SAY that race doesn't matter, but really won't vote for him because of his race, and it seems like it'll be a wash.

JWBear 10-09-2008 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 245178)
Polls, polls and more polls...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26981780/

That's from a week ago.

JWBear 10-09-2008 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 245176)
Wait, I'm confused, which candidate is the one that's supposed to not be ready to lead on day 1?

McCain doesn't need an administration - staff are for sissies! He's going to run the whole country by himself, 'cause he's a maverick!

Strangler Lewis 10-09-2008 01:44 PM

Yes, we can.

While I can't say I entirely support the premise and execution of the video, what surprises me is that the folks on the site found it so appalling as to not even require comment.

Tom 10-09-2008 04:43 PM

It is being reported that Obama haas bought half-hour blocks of time on CBS and NBC, and is negotiating the same with Fox.

I remember it wasnt too long ago that people were wondering how it was that Obama's money advantage over McCain wasn't looking as big as expected. Well, it's playing pretty big.

Ghoulish Delight 10-09-2008 05:13 PM

Wow, for the first time, all of the polls on Real Clear Politics' short list are showing Obama. Gallup still has him with an unrealistically high 11% lead. FiverThirtyEight has Obama at better than 90% chance to win.

Why doesn't any of this comfort me?

Cadaverous Pallor 10-09-2008 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 245262)
Yes, we can.

While I can't say I entirely support the premise and execution of the video, what surprises me is that the folks on the site found it so appalling as to not even require comment.

I'm sorry, but that looks very fake to me, and totally ridiculous. Of course if you search for it all you get are anti-Obama sites. Can't wait until it's debunked somewhere...

Gemini Cricket 10-09-2008 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 245322)
Why doesn't any of this comfort me?

Well, speaking for me, I'm not comforted for two reasons: Gore and Kerry.

Deebs 10-09-2008 07:12 PM

Thanks, really, but I have plans tonight...
 
This afternoon I went to pick my kids up from a play date set up for them by their dad. They were playing at a person's house I'd never met before, someone my ex knows. He dropped them off there, I picked them up.

The neighborhood is a in an old section, but very nice, and next to the oldest country club in town. When I got to the house I noticed a McCain lawn sign. When I got to the door, the lady of the house was on her cell phone, talking about the Women for McCain party she is hosting tonight. While I stood there waiting for my kids to put their shoes on and pick up the mess they helped make in this woman's living room, I heard her say a variety of disturbing things during her phone conversation.

First, I heard her call Obama, "Osama".

She was not being facetious, she sounded deadly serious. She said "Osama refuses to put his hand on the bible. It's because he is a Muslim, you know."

She went on to say that George W. Bush is being nailed to a cross by the public. There is more, but it's just more of the same.

If it hadn't been so horribly nauseating, it might have been sit com material. She sounded like Gladys Kravitz, in fact.

She invited me to her party tonight. Yeah. I'm on my way out the door riiiiiiiiight this minute.

flippyshark 10-09-2008 08:40 PM

Funny you should mention this. I was just on the phone with my Mom a few hours ago, and she went to a Women For McCain party (in Pennsylvania) a couple of days ago. She is a lifelong Republican, but she was very put off by the ridiculous and baseless barrage of Muslim rumors and fearmongering. When she went to leave, she was offered some signs to put in her yard, and she turned them down. Now, she is much less certain of how she wants to vote. (She is also no fan of Palin, and has been less than thrilled with the McCain of the last couple of weeks.)

I tried ever so gently to nudge her over to the Obama side, but she just sighed and said, "I don't know what I'm going to do." She then said she wishes she could vote for Bill Cosby.

Ghoulish Delight 10-09-2008 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 245329)
Well, speaking for me, I'm not comforted for two reasons: Gore and Kerry.

Except Gore and Kerry never had a lead like this.

Gemini Cricket 10-09-2008 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 245353)
Except Gore and Kerry never had a lead like this.

Obama's lead has me hopeful but I'm still hesitant to rejoice just yet...

Cadaverous Pallor 10-09-2008 10:30 PM

If a 90% chance of victory isn't enough to make you feel better, I don't know what is. :) It's not so much Yes We Can as Yes We Are...

Gemini Cricket 10-09-2008 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 245376)
If a 90% chance of victory isn't enough to make you feel better, I don't know what is. :) It's not so much Yes We Can as Yes We Are...

I hear ya. But I'll be completely happy when his win is official.
:)

innerSpaceman 10-09-2008 11:26 PM

Well you already voted. Does it seem more unnerving because now you just have to wait until everybody else does?

Strangler Lewis 10-10-2008 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 245325)
I'm sorry, but that looks very fake to me, and totally ridiculous. Of course if you search for it all you get are anti-Obama sites. Can't wait until it's debunked somewhere...

Hadn't considered that it was fake. I think if it had been faked, it wouldn't have led off with the positive affirmations. Of course, maybe the creators think black architects are scary.

Gemini Cricket 10-10-2008 04:10 PM

I usually shrug off any campaign that emails me something to watch. Straight to the trash can... But I did watch this from the Obama camp and it made me admire him even more.

Morrigoon 10-10-2008 09:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-__IdzH1b8

scaeagles 10-13-2008 07:20 AM

Here is a great break down of why I do not trust Obama and his promised tax cuts. Much of what he calls a tax cut he only can because he redefines what a tax cut is.

scaeagles 10-13-2008 07:39 AM

I will make another post that I am immensely concerned about the amount of voter registration fraud, particularly with the group ACORN.

Also, has anyone else seen the youtube video of the people marching through Manhattan carrying McCain/Palin signs? For the party of tolerance and acceptance, there sure were a whole lot of gestures and words that did not exude tolerance or acceptance of opposing view points.

flippyshark 10-13-2008 07:59 AM

I agree that the rude gestures and booing are stupid and regrettable, and I wish all dems were classy people. But nobody gets to swing this charge with a clean conscience. (Which party was shouting "traitor" and "kill him" last week?) Partisan bickering is annoying, non productive, and brings out the petty in people. Just look at this thread!

I haven't done enough homework on ACORN, but at least in theory, it sounds like a group that needs to exist. Minorities and people in poor neighborhoods have historically been given extremely shabby treatment at the polls. I agree, there is no room in this or any election for voter fraud, and I don't think the dems would need to resort to that this year anyway. (stifling impulse to say "unlike the repubs back in 2000" - okay, technically not stifling it at all, but using comical parenthetical aside to toss an easy brickbat.)

If you have any links to solid info on ACORN malfeasance, preferably from a non-partisan source, I'd read it over. If there really is widespread registering of dead peoples names and transporting of persons across state or county lines for voter fraud happening, it is obviously in the best interests of dems to put a stop to it. On the other hand, if there is only rumor and partisan desperation behind it, well, my eyes can't roll enough.

Edited to add - And if your only purpose in bringing these matters up is to basically say "See, you democrats are hypocrites and bad people," then shame on you, and find another fricking hobby. (said affectionately - I'm a Leo fan.)

innerSpaceman 10-13-2008 08:18 AM

Voter REGISTRATION fraud is not the same as voter fraud. Since money is paid for every registred name, there are AUTOMATICALLY going to be fraudulent acts commited by every party in every state in every country on every planet that pays for registered names.


But since these fictitious people do not show up to VOTE, no voter fraud is committed.



In other words ... YAWN.

innerSpaceman 10-13-2008 08:20 AM

Oh, and I don't trust Obama's or ANY candidate's promised tax cuts. Only a fool would believe such a thing after they've experienced more than 2 presidential elections in their lives ... and only an absolute IDIOT would believe there are going to be tax cuts when every single American household owes $480,000 in national debt to be paid, mostly to the Chinese, in the soon to be worthless dollar.

JWBear 10-13-2008 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippyshark (Post 245682)
Minorities and people in poor neighborhoods have historically been given extremely shabby treatment at the polls.

And Republicans will go to great lengths to keep it that way. Smears and lies, again, being the favorite tactic of the Republican Party.

JWBear 10-13-2008 08:35 AM

Oh, and Leo... If you think I'm voting for Obama because of his tax plan, or that I really give a rats ass about it at this point, then you would be sadly mistaken.

scaeagles 10-13-2008 08:44 AM

You know, when I change the subject when someone points out something about the republican party or McCain by pointing out something the dems do wrong, I am usually chastized for it. But no, flippy, I didn't bring those things up for that reason....I brought them up because they are concerning.

My point has nothing to do with what McCain is or isn't doing....my point is that Obama is deliberately misrepresenting and not telling the truth regarding his tax plan. I suppose if the Republicans redefined rich as anyone with a net worth over 10 billion they could say they have never supported tax cuts for the wealthy. I don't care if you support Obama or not whether all or in part due to his tax cuts. The fact is he is LIEING specifically to sway undecided voters. As tax policy is a big, big point for a large number of voters, it is no doubt intentional. I recall the Obama tax cut link to calculate the tax cut you'll get if Obama is elected....something tells me that a lot of people find it important, particularly with the hits Obama is giving McCain on the "tax cuts for the wealthy" and the responses to those here.

Regarding voter fraud - the investigations are serious and ongoing into ACORN. I also believe that being regiestered to vote in more than one place is a crime. I could be mistaken, and if so, I apologize.

scaeagles 10-13-2008 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 245690)
And Republicans will go to great lengths to keep it that way. Smears and lies, again, being the favorite tactic of the Republican Party.


Voter fraud is one of the favorite tactics of dems....cheating, smearing, lieing....all democrat party strategies.

wendybeth 10-13-2008 08:50 AM

Leo must have read the latest poll numbers.

:p

(I know I commit voter fraud on a daily basis. I get up and the first thing I say to myself is "Wendy, have you committed your voter fraud today?" I have to remind myself to stay on task, because I'm so busy having abortions and sneaking terrorists across the border. Being a Dem is hard work!)

scaeagles 10-13-2008 08:59 AM

Actually, the latest poll numbers are closing the gap. I doubt it will be enough, but they are narrowing.

Moonliner 10-13-2008 09:01 AM

Vote fraud is a very serious issue, even more so with all these ****ing electronic voting systems. They raise the specter of a stolen election like nothing else in the history of our democracy. I'm fairly sure I don't want our election process to become one of who the best hackers support. Especially since BOTH parties have been clearly shown to have members not above stealing an election.

JWBear 10-13-2008 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245695)
Voter fraud is one of the favorite tactics of dems....cheating, smearing, lieing....all democrat party strategies.

Actually... In the last two presidential elections there was vastly more voter fraud (and blatant voter suppression) on the part of the Republicans. The old "Your friend shoplifted, so you have to let me commit armed robbery" defense is old, tired, and just plain indefensible.

The massive amounts of dirty tricks, lies, corruption, hypocrisy, and just plain nastiness on the part of the Republicans over the last eight years - vastly outnumbering the Democrats by orders of magnitude - have made me lose any trust or support for Republicans I ever had. I've voted for candidates from both parties equally in the past. No more. I've moved from a moderate to a staunch Democrat now. You can thank your party for that.

Morrigoon 10-13-2008 09:43 AM

But, JW, to be fair, the whining about recounts in the last election was pretty irritating for republicans. And there was plenty of talk about hanging chads becoming less hanging, IYKWIM.

JWBear 10-13-2008 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonliner (Post 245700)
Vote fraud is a very serious issue, even more so with all these ****ing electronic voting systems. They raise the specter of a stolen election like nothing else in the history of our democracy. I'm fairly sure I don't want our election process to become one of who the best hackers support. Especially since BOTH parties have been clearly shown to have members not above stealing an election.

Fortunately, that tactic only works when the vote is close. If the final tally from the electronic machines is very far off of what the polls (including exit polls), then it becomes too obvious. they will try it, though.

Who is the biggest manufacturer of electronic voting machines? Debolt.
Which brand of voting machine seems to have the most instances of changing Democratic votes to Republican ones - in error, of course (wink, wink)? Debolt.
Which party does Debolt contribute the most money to? The Republican Party.

Hmmmmmm.... No, there couldn't be any relation there...

JWBear 10-13-2008 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 245712)
But, JW, to be fair, the whining about recounts in the last election was pretty irritating for republicans. And there was plenty of talk about hanging chads becoming less hanging, IYKWIM.

Soooo... You're saying that when there are signs of voter fraud, the losing party just has to shut up and take it? I don't think so.

I'm so very sorry they were irritated. How inconsiderate of us for wanting a fair chance at the White House.

wendybeth 10-13-2008 09:50 AM

A voter recount gave our governor the election. Now, her old opponent is claiming that "Seattle stole the election" and has pasted billboards all over Eastern Wa saying so. It's not having the effect he hoped for.

Morrigoon 10-13-2008 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 245716)
Soooo... You're saying that when there are signs of voter fraud, the losing party just has to shut up and take it? I don't think so.

I'm so very sorry they were irritated. How inconsiderate of us for wanting a fair chance at the White House.

I'm just pointing out the other side. As someone who has jumped from voting for one party to voting for the other this time around, I figured I was qualified to point out that neither party is innocent here.

I don't honestly believe that Gore won the last election. Maybe I should make that position clear.

flippyshark 10-13-2008 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 245721)
I don't honestly believe that Gore won the last election.

He'd have had a hard time, since he didn't run. :)

scaeagles 10-13-2008 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 245709)
Actually... In the last two presidential elections there was vastly more voter fraud (and blatant voter suppression) on the part of the Republicans. The old "Your friend shoplifted, so you have to let me commit armed robbery" defense is old, tired, and just plain indefensible.

Excuse me.....excuse me. No, no, no. I brought up a point, and I believe it was YOU, sir, that offered up a deflection away from crooked dems to make it a republican thing in this context. YOU are the one using the defense that you so condescendingly accuse me of.

JWBear 10-13-2008 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245727)
Excuse me.....excuse me. No, no, no. I brought up a point, and I believe it was YOU, sir, that offered up a deflection away from crooked dems to make it a republican thing in this context. YOU are the one using the defense that you so condescendingly accuse me of.

And you would be right... If the accusation you made was true.

scaeagles 10-13-2008 10:56 AM

HA! More arrogance from the world of "dems surely couldn't be corrupt!" thinkers.

Sheesh.

I guess then, whenever I am told that I bring up something merely as a deflection, that all I have to do is say that the original point was false and I'm OK. So ISM, if you read this, please be advised I may adopt this philosophy.

innerSpaceman 10-13-2008 12:34 PM

Nope, that may work for JWBear, but not for me. The Dems are crooked, too. I don't happen to believe they're as crooked as the Republicans, but that doesn't excuse them one bit in my book.

I'm not sure what allegations we're talking about anymore. But it appears to me that the allegations of ACORN committing registration fraud are true (several people have been indicted, if not yet convicted??), but the allegations of voter fraud are false ... or, at best, merely allegations without a shred of evidence. To which I repeat ... YAWN.


There's a certain philosophy (which I don't condone) that crookedness in winning an election is vital, if it's imperative for the good of the nation / state / county /city that one's candidate be elected at all costs.


Morrigoon's evocation of Gore reminds me that he gracefully stopped his efforts after the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, declining to take further steps to be elected at all costs. In retrospect of the past 8 years, the coup d'etat committed by the Republicans to install Bush as their puppet dictator was precisely the kind of thing one could almost legitimately use as the rationale to be elected instead at any costs for the good of the country and the world.


And may I remind everyone that the U.S. Supreme Court ruling held there WAS a civil rights violation in Florida which denied thousands their right to vote. The Court gave the Gore campaign less than 24 hours to tally those votes, which was obviously impossible - and thus the Court was complicit in the coup d'etat. But, by that same Supreme Court ruling, it was indeed a coup d'etat. Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Floridians were denied their right to vote ... and the difference of counted votes between Gore and Bush was something like 357.


Back to you, scaeagles. :)

Yes, as we near the end of the disastrous Bush Presidency, I unashamedly dredge up the 2000 election and remind everyone that it started so appropriately to how it then proceeded for eight tragic years.

scaeagles 10-13-2008 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 245747)
Nope, that may work for JWBear, but not for me.

Back to you, scaeagles. :)

I was speaking sarcastically, of course. I also deep down inside want JW to be chastized, too.

JWBear 10-13-2008 01:49 PM

For the record, I have no illusions that Democrats have not committed voter fraud. However, it it plain that the shear volume of voter fraud committed by Republicans makes the Democratic efforts pale in comparison.

There was voter suppression in Florida in 2000. Because of it, Bush "won" the state, and therefore the election. This served to embolden the likes of Rove to greater feats in 2004. (Though I do believe that Bush won that election fair and square, despite the fraud.)

There were some ACORN employees that are accused of fraud, but that was an isolated instance in just one office. They were terminated from ACORN for violating ACORN's rules. This, in no way. reflects on ACORN as a whole.

The main complaint by Republicans seems to be that some of the voter registrations they have collected were illegitimate. ACORN doesn't fill them out, but merely collects them from the potential voters who do. ACORN (and any like organization) is required by law to turn all voter registrations it collects over to local election officials. They do not vet the registrations, and can hardly be blamed for the ones that are illegitimate.

At my work, we are required by state law to give voter registration forms to everyone who applies. We are not allowed to tell anyone that they can not fill them out - even if they are non-citizens. We do not have the authority to determine if someone is eligible to vote; that power rests with the Registrar of Voters Office. We are also required by law to turn in any completed voter registrations our clients give us. By the very same reasoning used by those who attack ACORN, the County of Orange is guilty of voter fraud because some of those registrations are illegitimate.

Morrigoon 10-13-2008 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippyshark (Post 245726)
He'd have had a hard time, since he didn't run. :)

Pffft, you knew who I meant. Lurch and Ken-doll.

(I have a very short attention span at work, keep getting interrupted mid-thought with, you know, work)

Strangler Lewis 10-13-2008 02:03 PM

As expected, Mom's thrown her vote in the mail for McCain. The reason being: his association with the ACORN fraud. Perhaps if she had voted on election day like a good American, this would have all died down. On the other hand, I'm sure there would have been some last minute smear that she would have glommed onto to avoid voting for Obama.

Morrigoon 10-13-2008 02:05 PM

JW: I'd stop short of a sweeping generalization about who has done more or less. Truth is none of us have any idea about potential voter fraud that hasn't been caught. So we really can't say that one party has committed more than the other.

Morrigoon 10-13-2008 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 245766)
As expected, Mom's thrown her vote in the mail for McCain. The reason being: his association with the ACORN fraud. Perhaps if she had voted on election day like a good American, this would have all died down. On the other hand, I'm sure there would have been some last minute smear that she would have glommed onto to avoid voting for Obama.

Just as long as she voted No on 8.

scaeagles 10-13-2008 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 245761)
For the record, I have no illusions that Democrats have not committed voter fraud. However, it it plain that the shear volume of voter fraud committed by Republicans makes the Democratic efforts pale in comparison.

There was voter suppression in Florida in 2000.

For every cry of that, I can cry out that voters were getting in line after polls closed demanding to vote. We can each play this game, and each will refuse to give an inch.

sleepyjeff 10-13-2008 02:07 PM

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/col...mer101008.php3

CoasterMatt 10-13-2008 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 245713)
Who is the biggest manufacturer of electronic voting machines? Debolt.
Which brand of voting machine seems to have the most instances of changing Democratic votes to Republican ones - in error, of course (wink, wink)? Debolt.
Which party does Debolt contribute the most money to? The Republican Party.

Hmmmmmm.... No, there couldn't be any relation there...

Do you mean 'Diebold'? ;)

JWBear 10-13-2008 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoasterMatt (Post 245816)
Do you mean 'Diebold'? ;)

That too... ;)

scaeagles 10-14-2008 06:44 AM

How interesting that I just posted yesterday how Obama is telling massive lies about his tax plan and the tax cuts for 95% of people, which is funny considering some 30% of people pay no federal income taxes at all. That ties in exactly with what Obama said to a man who starting a plumbing business either yesterday or a short time ago (I can post a link if anyone needs it).

From yesterday in Ohio:

Quote:

"Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?" the plumber asked, complaining that he was being taxed "more and more for fulfilling the American dream."

"It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too," Obama responded. "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

Spreading the wealth around is income redistribution. There is no question in my mind that in this context he is talking about taking money from those who pay taxes and giving it to those that don't. That is redistribution of wealth. I have no problem that there are those low income earners who pay no federal income taxes. But don't tax others more to give money to those who pay no taxes. He's not talking welfare. He's talking tax policy.

Considering tax policy and national defense are my two hot button issues, I may just end up voting for McCain rather than abstaining.

Moonliner 10-14-2008 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245848)
Considering tax policy and national defense are my two hot button issues, I may just end up voting for McCain rather than abstaining.

How important do you think international support is to our National Defence?

It's no secret that Obama is more popular among our allies than McCain. So it seems to me that despite McCain's image of being strong on defence, that Obama will be better able deliver security by working with our allies.

innerSpaceman 10-14-2008 07:01 AM

Um, newsflash to scaeagles ... the tax structure of our nation has ALWAYS been a redistrubution of wealth, from the middle class to the rich. It's about time it went the other way.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 07:10 AM

Fair question, Moonliner, and it has no simple or quick answer. I will when I have more time (as in not at work).

ISM, here's a news flash for you. For the tax year 2006....

Top 1% of wage earners (above $388,000) paid 39.89% of all federal income taxes.

Top 5% of wage earners (aggregate with the 1%, above $153,000) paid 60.14% of all federal income taxes.

The top 10% paid 70.79%, the top 25% paid 86.27%. The bottom 50% paid 2.99%.

Being that this is the case, how can it be said that the top wage earners are not paying enough, or that the taxes from the middle class has been a redistribution of wealth from the middle to the rich?

innerSpaceman 10-14-2008 08:06 AM

No, scaeagles, those wealthy people technically owed a certain percentage of income tax, but paid very little of that via all the methods available to the rich to avoid paying any taxes. Corporations pay no taxes. Rich folks pay very little taxes. They have numerous financial means, loopholes and methods to avoid paying their taxes and that's exactly what they do.


Where are you getting your statistics? What are they based on?

scaeagles 10-14-2008 08:13 AM

They are from IRS data as posted on the National Tax Payers Union website.

This IS the data. That IS the percentage of federal income taxes paid by those groups. The top 1% DID pay almost 40% of all federal income taxes collected in 2006. Other years are listed as well, and interestingly, the percentage paid by the top has gone up since 2002 (it took a significant dive from 37+% to 34-% from 2000 to 2001, then has steadily creeped up again to the highest percentage ever).

You may think they are not paying a high enough percentage of their income, which is a different debate. This ia about what percentage of federal income tax collected comes from where. The rich pays the VAST majority of federal income taxes.

JWBear 10-14-2008 08:19 AM

What would they have paid without the loopholes and tax shelters?

Betty 10-14-2008 09:09 AM

What percentage of their income did they pay compared to what percentage of my income did I pay.

I'm more interested in that then what they paid overall.

If I pay 25% and they pay 2% then they aren't being taxed enough compared to me - even if they paid $1,000,000 and I paid $10,000.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 09:28 AM

I am not one for tax loopholes. That's a fine conversation to have. Tax loop holes are set up by those who pass tax law, or the congress. While I would love for it to happen, congress isn't going to give up that power any time soon.

However, regardless of loopholes, one cannot possibly say that when the top 1% pays 40% of all federal taxes that they aren't paying their fair share or that the middle class is paying taxes that increase the wealth of the uh...wealthy.

JWBear 10-14-2008 09:40 AM

I agree with Betty. What percentage of their income do they actually pay?

mousepod 10-14-2008 09:44 AM

I'm not going to throw in my opinion on this one right now (don't have the time), except to point out that the Wall Street Journal editorial and the report from the Tax Foundation skew conservative. While The Tax Foundation calls itself non-partisan, they've been consistently one-sided for decades. While not nearly as sexy or incendiary, I would suggest that folks here check out the comparisons at the Tax Policy Center (from the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution) and their blog, TaxVox.

You're not likely to get as many talking points (for either side), but you might see some data that will help you to draw some conclusions on your own.

Betty 10-14-2008 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245868)
I am not one for tax loopholes. That's a fine conversation to have. Tax loop holes are set up by those who pass tax law, or the congress. While I would love for it to happen, congress isn't going to give up that power any time soon.

However, regardless of loopholes, one cannot possibly say that when the top 1% pays 40% of all federal taxes that they aren't paying their fair share or that the middle class is paying taxes that increase the wealth of the uh...wealthy.


Why shouldn't they have to pay a similar percentage to everyone else? Because they are rich? Because they already pay so much? Psh. Why shouldn't they be left with 75% of their earnings like I am after taxes? That's still a considerable amount of money. Seems like they are getting special privledges.

What ever happened to that proposal of a flat tax of 10% for everyone? and by everyone I mean everyone - not just those that can't afford to pay for the unforseen loopholes.

From what I saw of McCain's latest proposal, all his tax relief won't affect me at all. But it will certainly affect all those will a lot of money.

I'm not suggesting that those with money be forced to pay more then me - just the same percentage as me.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 09:56 AM

I don't believe I suggested they shouldn't pay the same percentage as everyone else. I am challanging ISM's assertion that "the tax structure of our nation has ALWAYS been a redistrubution of wealth, from the middle class to the rich. "

As far as what Mousepod pointed out, either the rich paid that percentage or they didn't. I suppose the NTU could be misreporting data from the IRS, but I doubt it.

As a side note, I voted for Forbes in the AZ primary in 2000. He was the biggest proponent for the flat tax that's ever taken the national spotlight.

Morrigoon 10-14-2008 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 245864)
What percentage of their income did they pay compared to what percentage of my income did I pay.

I'm more interested in that then what they paid overall.

If I pay 25% and they pay 2% then they aren't being taxed enough compared to me - even if they paid $1,000,000 and I paid $10,000.

If they paid $1,000,000 and you paid $10,000, and they didn't receive the benefit of 100x more roads, military protection, etc. Then can you honestly say they deserve to pay even more? I know we use it as a way to even out the burden a bit, but how much is enough?

JWBear 10-14-2008 10:18 AM

Taxes are not merely a fee for use of public facilities.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 10:35 AM

What are taxes for? To provide for the functions of government.

Betty 10-14-2008 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 245879)
If they paid $1,000,000 and you paid $10,000, and they didn't receive the benefit of 100x more roads, military protection, etc. Then can you honestly say they deserve to pay even more? I know we use it as a way to even out the burden a bit, but how much is enough?

So - why am I paying for the libary if I never go there? Why do childless people pay for public schools for kids they don't have? Why are you paying for national parks that you've never visited? And why are the roads I drive on not pothole free when I'm paying for their maintenance to be kept that way?

innerSpaceman 10-14-2008 10:51 AM

It is a redistribution. If that data is correct, it's what they paid after the loopholes and shelters that shielded them from the much vaster amount of tax they would have owed without access to those methods unwealthy people have no access to.


And if 1% of the population controls 80% of the wealth, why should that 1% not pay 80% of the taxes? What difference does it make if 80% of the taxes is paid by 1% of the people, if that's their share according to the share of wealth they control?

Ghoulish Delight 10-14-2008 10:58 AM

The standard answer to that is because it's income tax, not wealth tax. If you were to already own 25% of the country's wealth, retire, pull it all out of any sort of savings/investments, would you still be expected to pay taxes yearly on it?

Some say yes, some say no.

But regardless, no matter if you look at wealth or income (or, growth of wealth), the top percentile of individuals in this country pay a significantly smaller percentage of their own fortune than those below them do.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 245894)
The standard answer to that is because it's income tax, not wealth tax. If you were to already own 25% of the country's wealth, retire, pull it all out of any sort of savings/investments, would you still be expected to pay taxes yearly on it?

Some say yes, some say no.

But regardless, no matter if you look at wealth or income (or, growth of wealth), the top percentile of individuals in this country pay a significantly smaller percentage of their own fortune than those below them do.

For the record, I say no, because that's double taxation. This is the main reason I oppose inheritance taxes as well....the taxes were already paid on the money (whether this includes legal loopholes or not to me is not the issue), so why should the government be allowed to have more just because the dead person left it all to their kid?

This is the main reason I oppose the income tax at all. I think the founders had it right with property taxes. Who possesses the most property? The wealthy. The wealthy can indeed take advantage of loopholes, but the fact is they are there often times passed into law by the very people that decry them as unfair.

I would have no problem with some form of wealth tax....after all, in reality, that's what a property tax is. I also don't oppose some form of national sales tax (both of those are assuming the income tax went away). I like a national sales tax because that is a tax on consumption rather than earning and is much, much more visible to the consumer.

wendybeth 10-14-2008 12:21 PM

Surprisingly, I agree with Scaeagles with regards to a national sales tax. It's consumer driven, and those who consume the most will pay the most. It seems more equitable, on paper anyway- it's just the implementation that concerns me. The rich have a way of worming out little loopholes and exceptions for themselves.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 12:30 PM

The main argument against it is a legit one....being that since some 30% of people pay no income tax now, they are immediately hit by the national sales tax on all purchases.

I'm sure those smarter than me can come up with some thing, such as a graduated scale based on the purchase price, no tax on food, etc.

3894 10-14-2008 12:35 PM

Stand back! scaeagles and I agree!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245901)
For the record, I say no, because that's double taxation. This is the main reason I oppose inheritance taxes as well....the taxes were already paid on the money (whether this includes legal loopholes or not to me is not the issue), so why should the government be allowed to have more just because the dead person left it all to their kid?

Now that we have that settled, would someone like to leave me a boatload of money?

Morrigoon 10-14-2008 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 245889)
So - why am I paying for the libary if I never go there? Why do childless people pay for public schools for kids they don't have? Why are you paying for national parks that you've never visited? And why are the roads I drive on not pothole free when I'm paying for their maintenance to be kept that way?

I wasn't suggesting we completely nullify the difference, just pointing out that there is already an inequality in usage to explain why people MIGHT object to changes that make it even worse.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 01:03 PM

WB and 3894 agree with me in the same thread within a scant couple of posts of each other. I feel.....dirty.

Betty 10-14-2008 01:14 PM

Yeah - I was sort of agreeing with you too but thought I'd feel "dirty" if I posted that I did. Dang it. Now I need a shower don't I?

Morrigoon 10-14-2008 02:14 PM

I think not taxing rent or food would help the poor immensely. A national sales tax would help discourage consumerism and encourage savings, but then there's the double-edged sword of reduced consumerism harming the economy.

3894 10-14-2008 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245930)
WB and 3894 agree with me in the same thread within a scant couple of posts of each other. I feel.....dirty.

Socialized medicine? Welfare? Right here, baby.

scaeagles 10-14-2008 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 245942)
I think not taxing rent or food would help the poor immensely. A national sales tax would help discourage consumerism and encourage savings, but then there's the double-edged sword of reduced consumerism harming the economy.


But also the effect of more $ in the consumer pocket.

innerSpaceman 10-14-2008 05:05 PM

And, rhetorically, I ask ... what good does that extra $5 do if that consumer works in retail and no longer has a job?


I'm reminded every Christmas season that our entire economy depends on rampant consumer spending, and that half the retail businesses in the U.S. would go out of business if the Grinch were to really steal the holiday when 80% of sales are made.


So I'm morally in favor of anything that stops people from spending money foolishly and recklessly ... but that also will generally reduce our average standard of living ... if retail suffers great losses, too much job loss will be a result.


It's a conundrum. Fortunately, I'm not in charge of running the world. But I'd have to say the better of two bad choices is for people to stop spending money like water, money that they all too often do not have ... but spend on credit.


Still, I'm doing better than the U.S. government. I owe about $20K to credit cards, but my share of the national debt owed to China, et al. is $480K.


Maybe I should run the world after all.

CoasterMatt 10-14-2008 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 245930)
WB and 3894 agree with me in the same thread within a scant couple of posts of each other. I feel.....dirty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 245932)
Yeah - I was sort of agreeing with you too but thought I'd feel "dirty" if I posted that I did. Dang it. Now I need a shower don't I?

The 4 of you hop in a shower, I get it on video, and we make a ton of money :evil:

scaeagles 10-14-2008 08:05 PM

That's creepy, CM. REally, really creepy. I hope I have forgotten that by the time I take a shower in the morning.

ISM, I used to have a positive net worth by a whol lot, then my house lost some 25% of its value, putting me about even. Sigh. Thankfully, no credit card debt.

3894 10-15-2008 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoasterMatt (Post 245971)
The 4 of you hop in a shower, I get it on video, and we make a ton of money :evil:

If this involves the use of a Ronald Reagan mask, it could be festive!

Moonliner 10-15-2008 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3894 (Post 246012)
If this involves the use of a Ronald Reagan mask, it could be festive!

Actually, I think a Nixon mask would be of more use in the shower.

scaeagles 10-15-2008 07:00 AM

Could make it really kinky with a Reagan mask, and you three could wear Pelosi, Hillary, and Michelle Obama masks.

OK....this is getting more creepy.

Betty 10-15-2008 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246014)
Could make it really kinky with a Reagan mask, and you three could wear Pelosi, Hillary, and Michelle Obama masks.

OK....this is getting more creepy.

As I look at your current Reagan avatar... ha ha. Who knew you were into that Scaeagles. ;)

Gemini Cricket 10-15-2008 07:11 AM

Son of William F. Buckley endorses Obama:

Quote:

Let me be the latest conservative/libertarian/whatever to leap onto the Barack Obama bandwagon. It’s a good thing my dear old mum and pup are no longer alive. They’d cut off my allowance.
Source

Hmm. The link seems to be very slow. Below is the entire article:

Spoiler:
The son of William F. Buckley has decided—shock!—to vote for a Democrat.

Let me be the latest conservative/libertarian/whatever to leap onto the Barack Obama bandwagon. It’s a good thing my dear old mum and pup are no longer alive. They’d cut off my allowance.

Or would they? But let’s get that part out of the way. The only reason my vote would be of any interest to anyone is that my last name happens to be Buckley—a name I inherited. So in the event anyone notices or cares, the headline will be: “William F. Buckley’s Son Says He Is Pro-Obama.” I know, I know: It lacks the throw-weight of “Ron Reagan Jr. to Address Democratic Convention,” but it’ll have to do.

Dear Pup once said to me, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.”

I am—drum roll, please, cue trumpets—making this announcement in the cyberpages of The Daily Beast (what joy to be writing for a publication so named!) rather than in the pages of National Review, where I write the back-page column. For a reason: My colleague, the superb and very dishy Kathleen Parker, recently wrote in National Review Online a column stating what John Cleese as Basil Fawlty would call “the bleeding obvious”: namely, that Sarah Palin is an embarrassment, and a dangerous one at that. She’s not exactly alone. New York Times columnist David Brooks, who began his career at NR, just called Governor Palin “a cancer on the Republican Party.”
As for Kathleen, she has to date received 12,000 (quite literally) foam-at-the-mouth hate-emails. One correspondent, if that’s quite the right word, suggested that Kathleen’s mother should have aborted her and tossed the fetus into a Dumpster. There’s Socratic dialogue for you. Dear Pup once said to me sighfully after a right-winger who fancied himself a WFB protégé had said something transcendently and provocatively cretinous, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.” Well, the dear man did his best. At any rate, I don’t have the kidney at the moment for 12,000 emails saying how good it is he’s no longer alive to see his Judas of a son endorse for the presidency a covert Muslim who pals around with the Weather Underground. So, you’re reading it here first.

As to the particulars, assuming anyone gives a fig, here goes:
I have known John McCain personally since 1982. I wrote a well-received speech for him. Earlier this year, I wrote in The New York Times—I’m beginning to sound like Paul Krugman, who cannot begin a column without saying, “As I warned the world in my last column...”—a highly favorable Op-Ed about McCain, taking Rush Limbaugh and the others in the Right Wing Sanhedrin to task for going after McCain for being insufficiently conservative. I don’t—still—doubt that McCain’s instincts remain fundamentally conservative. But the problem is otherwise.

McCain rose to power on his personality and biography. He was authentic. He spoke truth to power. He told the media they were “jerks” (a sure sign of authenticity, to say nothing of good taste; we are jerks). He was real. He was unconventional. He embraced former anti-war leaders. He brought resolution to the awful missing-POW business. He brought about normalization with Vietnam—his former torturers! Yes, he erred in accepting plane rides and vacations from Charles Keating, but then, having been cleared on technicalities, groveled in apology before the nation. He told me across a lunch table, “The Keating business was much worse than my five and a half years in Hanoi, because I at least walked away from that with my honor.” Your heart went out to the guy. I thought at the time, God, this guy should be president someday.

A year ago, when everyone, including the man I’m about to endorse, was caterwauling to get out of Iraq on the next available flight, John McCain, practically alone, said no, no—bad move. Surge. It seemed a suicidal position to take, an act of political bravery of the kind you don’t see a whole lot of anymore.

But that was—sigh—then. John McCain has changed. He said, famously, apropos the Republican debacle post-1994, “We came to Washington to change it, and Washington changed us.” This campaign has changed John McCain. It has made him inauthentic. A once-first class temperament has become irascible and snarly; his positions change, and lack coherence; he makes unrealistic promises, such as balancing the federal budget “by the end of my first term.” Who, really, believes that? Then there was the self-dramatizing and feckless suspension of his campaign over the financial crisis. His ninth-inning attack ads are mean-spirited and pointless. And finally, not to belabor it, there was the Palin nomination. What on earth can he have been thinking?

All this is genuinely saddening, and for the country is perhaps even tragic, for America ought, really, to be governed by men like John McCain—who have spent their entire lives in its service, even willing to give the last full measure of their devotion to it. If he goes out losing ugly, it will be beyond tragic, graffiti on a marble bust.

As for Senator Obama: He has exhibited throughout a “first-class temperament,” pace Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.’s famous comment about FDR. As for his intellect, well, he’s a Harvard man, though that’s sure as heck no guarantee of anything, these days. Vietnam was brought to you by Harvard and (one or two) Yale men. As for our current adventure in Mesopotamia, consider this lustrous alumni roster. Bush 43: Yale. Rumsfeld: Princeton. Paul Bremer: Yale and Harvard. What do they all have in common? Andover! The best and the brightest.

I’ve read Obama’s books, and they are first-rate. He is that rara avis, the politician who writes his own books. Imagine. He is also a lefty. I am not. I am a small-government conservative who clings tenaciously and old-fashionedly to the idea that one ought to have balanced budgets. On abortion, gay marriage, et al, I’m libertarian. I believe with my sage and epigrammatic friend P.J. O’Rourke that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away.

But having a first-class temperament and a first-class intellect, President Obama will (I pray, secularly) surely understand that traditional left-politics aren’t going to get us out of this pit we’ve dug for ourselves. If he raises taxes and throws up tariff walls and opens the coffers of the DNC to bribe-money from the special interest groups against whom he has (somewhat disingenuously) railed during the campaign trail, then he will almost certainly reap a whirlwind that will make Katrina look like a balmy summer zephyr.

Obama has in him—I think, despite his sometimes airy-fairy “We are the people we have been waiting for” silly rhetoric—the potential to be a good, perhaps even great leader. He is, it seems clear enough, what the historical moment seems to be calling for.

So, I wish him all the best. We are all in this together. Necessity is the mother of bipartisanship. And so, for the first time in my life, I’ll be pulling the Democratic lever in November. As the saying goes, God save the United States of America.

Gemini Cricket 10-15-2008 07:14 AM

And then Buckley resigns from the National Review:

Quote:

While I regret this development, I am not in mourning, for I no longer have any clear idea what, exactly, the modern conservative movement stands for. Eight years of “conservative” government has brought us a doubled national debt, ruinous expansion of entitlement programs, bridges to nowhere, poster boy Jack Abramoff and an ill-premised, ill-waged war conducted by politicians of breathtaking arrogance. As a sideshow, it brought us a truly obscene attempt at federal intervention in the Terry Schiavo case.
Source

Spoiler:
Christopher Buckley, in an exclusive for The Daily Beast, explains why he left The National Review, the magazine his father founded. I seem to have picked an apt title for my Daily Beast column, or blog, or whatever it’s called: “What Fresh Hell.” My last posting (if that’s what it’s called) in which I endorsed Obama, has brought about a very heaping helping of fresh hell. In fact, I think it could accurately be called a tsunami.

The mail (as we used to call it in pre-cyber times) at the Beast has been running I’d say at about 7-to-1 in favor. This would seem to indicate that you (the Beast reader) are largely pro-Obama.

As for the mail flooding into National Review Online—that’s been running about, oh, 700-to-1 against. In fact, the only thing the Right can’t quite decide is whether I should be boiled in oil or just put up against the wall and shot. Lethal injection would be too painless.

I had gone out of my way in my Beast endorsement to say that I was not doing it in the pages of National Review, where I write the back-page column, because of the experience of my colleague, the lovely Kathleen Parker. Kathleen had written in NRO that she felt Sarah Palin was an embarrassment. (Hardly an alarmist view.) This brought 12,000 livid emails, among them a real charmer suggesting that Kathleen’s mother ought to have aborted her and tossed the fetus into a dumpster. I didn’t want to put NR in an awkward position.

Since my Obama endorsement, Kathleen and I have become BFFs and now trade incoming hate-mails. No one has yet suggested my dear old Mum should have aborted me, but it’s pretty darned angry out there in Right Wing Land. One editor at National Review—a friend of 30 years—emailed me that he thought my opinions “cretinous.” One thoughtful correspondent, who feels that I have “betrayed”—the b-word has been much used in all this—my father and the conservative movement generally, said he plans to devote the rest of his life to getting people to cancel their subscriptions to National Review. But there was one bright spot: To those who wrote me to demand, “Cancel my subscription,” I was able to quote the title of my father’s last book, a delicious compendium of his NR “Notes and Asides”: Cancel Your Own Goddam Subscription.

Within hours of my endorsement appearing in The Daily Beast it became clear that National Review had a serious problem on its hands. So the next morning, I thought the only decent thing to do would be to offer to resign my column there. This offer was accepted—rather briskly!—by Rich Lowry, NR’s editor, and its publisher, the superb and able and fine Jack Fowler. I retain the fondest feelings for the magazine that my father founded, but I will admit to a certain sadness that an act of publishing a reasoned argument for the opposition should result in acrimony and disavowal.
My father in his day endorsed a number of liberal Democrats for high office, including Allard K. Lowenstein and Joe Lieberman. One of his closest friends on earth was John Kenneth Galbraith. In 1969, Pup wrote a widely-remarked upon column saying that it was time America had a black president. (I hasten to aver here that I did not endorse Senator Obama because he is black. Surely voting for someone on that basis is as racist as not voting for him for the same reason.)

My point, simply, is that William F. Buckley held to rigorous standards, and if those were met by members of the other side rather than by his own camp, he said as much. My father was also unpredictable, which tends to keep things fresh and lively and on-their-feet. He came out for legalization of drugs once he decided that the war on drugs was largely counterproductive. Hardly a conservative position. Finally, and hardly least, he was fun. God, he was fun. He liked to mix it up.

So, I have been effectively fatwahed (is that how you spell it?) by the conservative movement, and the magazine that my father founded must now distance itself from me. But then, conservatives have always had a bit of trouble with the concept of diversity. The GOP likes to say it’s a big-tent. Looks more like a yurt to me.

While I regret this development, I am not in mourning, for I no longer have any clear idea what, exactly, the modern conservative movement stands for. Eight years of “conservative” government has brought us a doubled national debt, ruinous expansion of entitlement programs, bridges to nowhere, poster boy Jack Abramoff and an ill-premised, ill-waged war conducted by politicians of breathtaking arrogance. As a sideshow, it brought us a truly obscene attempt at federal intervention in the Terry Schiavo case.

So, to paraphrase a real conservative, Ronald Reagan: I haven’t left the Republican Party. It left me.

Thanks, anyway, for the memories, and here’s to happier days and with any luck, a bit less fresh hell.

It's interesting to read the article, especially the part where he describes some of the backlash Kathleen Parker received. Very interesting.

innerSpaceman 10-15-2008 07:32 AM

Thanks for those links, GC.


Sigh, how many more times must we see it? Right:Evil. Left:Good.

scaeagles 10-15-2008 08:03 AM

Left:Stupid. Right:Smart.

Oh, wait. I'm not supposed to make generalities like that, no matter how many links I could find to articles from columnists that might assert the same thing. My bad.

Snowflake 10-15-2008 08:10 AM

GC, thanks for those very intresting reads, nice to read a erudite column.

What a shame, I'm sure this kind of thing happens on the liberal side more than I will ever know (Joe Lieberman probably got some of this), but sheesh the nastiness and the threats.

And I thought warmly of Sceagles as he quoted his own conservative hero

Quote:

So, to paraphrase a real conservative, Ronald Reagan: I haven’t left the Republican Party. It left me.

scaeagles 10-15-2008 08:16 AM

Well, it is indeed true that the Republicans are no longer the party of small government or fiscal conservatism or any number of other things. Sad thing is the dems certainly aren't it either.

I keep telling myself as it becomes more and more certain that Obama wins that it took a Carter to get a Reagan. The republicans at present aren't that much different than they were under Ford.

innerSpaceman 10-15-2008 08:56 AM

You can knee-jerk all you want, scaeagles ... but I've yet to hear any tales of people shouting "Kill Him" about McCain at a Biden ralley, or of people writing they wish their mothers had aborted them and thrown their fetus-selves into a dumpster about Democrats who happen to endorse the Republican ticket.


Tell me again which side of the polarization constantly wants violence, and then tell me who's good and who's evil. If Stupid is good, I'll pick stupid. But tell me with a straight face that peace is a mode of the stupid and violence a mode of the intelligent. Go on.

Betty 10-15-2008 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246028)
Well, it is indeed true that the Republicans are no longer the party of small government or fiscal conservatism or any number of other things. Sad thing is the dems certainly aren't it either.

I keep telling myself as it becomes more and more certain that Obama wins that it took a Carter to get a Reagan. The republicans at present aren't that much different than they were under Ford.

Looking back now - I don't remember things being "this bad" when Carter was around. Granted, I wasn't near old enough to vote or anything but wasn't that a better time then the Bush years?

Will we all be saying it takes a Bush to get an Obama?

scaeagles 10-15-2008 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 246032)
You can knee-jerk all you want, scaeagles ... but I've yet to hear any tales of people shouting "Kill Him" about McCain at a Biden ralley, or of people writing they wish their mothers had aborted them and thrown their fetus-selves into a dumpster about Democrats who happen to endorse the Republican ticket.


Tell me again which side of the polarization constantly wants violence, and then tell me who's good and who's evil. If Stupid is good, I'll pick stupid. But tell me with a straight face that peace is a mode of the stupid and violence a mode of the intelligent. Go on.

Well, I've heard something that happened on the Howard Stern show...an interviewer went into Harlem, asked people who they were voting for, and they said Obama. When asked why they said policy. The interviewer then listed McCain policies, presenting them as Obamas, and the interviewees said that yes, those were the policies they agreed with.

Stupid.

I've seen the video (mentioned earlier) of the march of people carrying McCain/Palin signs through Manhattan and the reaction of a whole bunch they passed.

Hateful. Intolerant.

I've seen the graffiti and vandalism at some republican/McCain offices spouting "McCain means slavery" and whatever else they wrote.

Violent. Hateful. Stupid. Intolerant.

I've herd the interviews of leftists referring to Palin as a b*itch.

Offensive.

I can keep going. Go ahead and say "anecdotal". That's precisely what you're putting forth. Is it unfortunate? Indeed. Is it representative? Only to the extent the above example are representative of the left.

scaeagles 10-15-2008 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 246034)
Looking back now - I don't remember things being "this bad" when Carter was around. Granted, I wasn't near old enough to vote or anything but wasn't that a better time then the Bush years?

Will we all be saying it takes a Bush to get an Obama?

Carter had double digit inflation and double digit interest rates, with much, much higher unemployment. Not a great time. Hard to say which was worse. Can't really say which was until this one finishes.

mousepod 10-15-2008 09:28 AM

For the record, I have a distinct memory of being 14 years old and talking with my friends about how he hoped that Ronald Reagan would be elected because he would be so bad that we'd get a real progressive leader to follow him. My first vote was against Reagan's second term. When the Democrats failed to put up a worthy opponent to RWR's VP in 1988, I left the party and didn't return until this year.

It's 28 years after Reagan's landslide victory. If you real conservatives want to help get Obama elected using the same logic I used back in 1980... thank you.

mousepod 10-15-2008 09:30 AM

... and I still listen to the Howard Stern show. They did the same flip with a McCain supporter and he said the exact same thing. It just proved that from a random sampling of people on the street... everyone's stupid.

scaeagles 10-15-2008 09:32 AM

Right Mousepod....just like the vandalism and slurs and violence as portrayed on the right will happen to the same amount on the left.

mousepod 10-15-2008 09:44 AM

I agree that violence, hatred and intolerance is stupid - no matter which side it comes from. I also agree that there are a lot of stupid people out there.

Here's where I make a distinction (and why the Republican party hasn't ever really appealed to me): pro-war, anti-choice, anti-freedom to marry... all important parts of the Republican platform... all strike me as intolerant.

Reagan's small government beliefs might have been attractive - but the Cold War Red Scare tactics and his embrace of the Moral Majority scared the crap out of me.

It bothers me when Democrats "move to the center" by embracing intolerance - like when Tipper Gore and her Washington Wives attacked the First Amendment, or Bill Clinton wussed out with "Don't ask, don't tell."

I understand why some politicians pander to the religious right... it gets them the votes they need to get elected. I wish that weren't the case.

While Rev. Wright (and Obama's connection to him) leaves a bad taste in my mouth - I also know that Obama hasn't inflicted Wright's beliefs on the platform of his party. And that's why he - and the party - gets my vote this year.

Morrigoon 10-15-2008 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousepod (Post 246042)
... and I still listen to the Howard Stern show. They did the same flip with a McCain supporter and he said the exact same thing. It just proved that from a random sampling of people on the street... everyone's stupid.

This just proves that both parties are too alike. Time for a third party to step up and join the fray.

Gemini Cricket 10-15-2008 10:21 AM

Using scaeagles' mirroring technique, I have to say that the people who are voting for Obama just because he's African American are as misguided as those who are voting against him because he's African American.

wendybeth 10-15-2008 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246014)
Could make it really kinky with a Reagan mask, and you three could wear Pelosi, Hillary, and Michelle Obama masks.

OK....this is getting more creepy.


You get to be Hillary, right?

Ghoulish Delight 10-15-2008 01:03 PM

Colin Powell expected to endorse Obama

Don't know how authoritative O'Donnell is on the matter, but assuming he's right about Powell's pending decision, it would indeed be a pretty definitive boost for Obama.

Gemini Cricket 10-15-2008 01:08 PM

And speaking of Mr. Powell...
Colin Powell at Hip Hop Festival
It's worth a click just to see the picture at the top.
:D

Morrigoon 10-15-2008 01:08 PM

Oh hells yes that would be a boost. Lots of people really like Colin Powell and respect him.

Of course some will spin it off as a racial thing, but Colin's a smart guy and I don't think that's what he'd base his decision on. (besides, he got royally screwed by the Bush admin., that's reason enough, LOL)

JWBear 10-15-2008 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 246077)
(besides, he got royally screwed by the Bush admin., that's reason enough, LOL)

So have we all....

3894 10-15-2008 01:58 PM

"We have been robbed of what this country stands for and we need to take a stand." Zoe Kravitz (Lenny Kravitz and Lisa Bonet's daughter) video. Safe for work.

Gemini Cricket 10-15-2008 02:07 PM

Hmm.
I liked that. Great message.
At the same time, it kinda creeped me out.

Ghoulish Delight 10-15-2008 05:09 PM

There are some numbers trickling in on early voting in states that allow such data to be collected.

In some key states, Obama is showing very large leads among early voters :

.-----------Poll --- % Voted ---------------------- Non-Early
State ---- Date ---- Early ----- Early Voters ------ Likely Voters
================================================== ==
NM ----- 10/13 ---- 10% ----- Obama +23% ----- Obama +6%
OH ------ 10/13 ---- 12% ----- Obama +18% ----- Obama +4%
GA ------ 10/12 ---- 18% ----- Obama +6% ------ McCain +11%
IA ------- 10/9 ----- 14% ----- Obama +34% ----- Obama +10%
NC -------10/6 ----- 5% ------ Obama +34% ----- McCain +5%


Not that one would expect that huge difference between general polling of likely voters and these early voters to hold up come November. But it does seem to be an early indication that Obama is winning the voter turnout game among his base.

And, as a comparison point, Bush had more than 60% of the early vote over both Gore and Kerry, so this appears to be a switch in early voter pattern, from a party perspective.

scaeagles 10-16-2008 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnerSpaceMan
but I've yet to hear any tales of people shouting "Kill Him" about McCain at a Biden ralley

Wow....I'm so surprised. The Sercet sevice can't seem to find any evidence that it actually happened.. I'm so shocked a newspaper published a story that con't be confirmed by anyone.

scaeagles 10-16-2008 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousepod (Post 246049)
Here's where I make a distinction (and why the Republican party hasn't ever really appealed to me): pro-war, anti-choice, anti-freedom to marry... all important parts of the Republican platform... all strike me as intolerant.

This was bothering me a bit....I get the third. I really do get why that's considered intolerant. I don't get why the first two are considered intolerant.

Being pro-war (assuming you mean Iraq) is intolerant? I'm not sure how.

Being pro-life is intolerant? Certainly blowing up clinics and threatening to shoot abortion doctors is, but it's been a really long time since I can remember such a thing happening, and those things have never been a platform of the republican party. Not to open the debate, but pro-lifers don't consider it an issue of choice, they see the unborn as alive and needing protection. Again, not sure how this is intolerant.

If it is about passion on the issues, both sides are indeed passionate on those subjects and shout each other down all the time.

Gemini Cricket 10-16-2008 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246211)
Not to open the debate, but pro-lifers don't consider it an issue of choice, they see the unborn as alive and needing protection. Again, not sure how this is intolerant.

In my own opinion, it's intolerant because a lot of pro-lifers are saying "the government should say no abortions period". Some make concessions and say "it's okay if the woman's life is in danger" etc. But pro-choice people are saying "government should stay out of it". Pro-choice people are not promoting abortions. They are saying "this mega-decision should be left up to the pregnant woman". Pro-lifers are inserting themselves into the situation and wanting to legislate away someone's ability to decide for themselves what to do. It ain't their business, that is not respecting privacy, that is being intolerant, imho.

As someone who is pro-choice, my personal stance is "it ain't my business, deal with the situation as you see fit, go to therapy for your mental well-being no matter what you decide and next time use a f*cking condom".
;)

innerSpaceman 10-16-2008 06:47 AM

Yes, it's intolerant of women ... I assume there's no debate about whether they are alive.


War is intolerant of, ya know, humans.


Sometimes you really are a puzzlement, Leo.

scaeagles 10-16-2008 07:03 AM

Honestly, that puzzles me, ISM.

Of course the ENTIRE abortion debate is about whether or not the unborn is alive or not.

War is sometimes a necessary evil. You may regard the Iraq war as an intolerant one, which would be an issue for discussion, but while all war is unfortunate, not all is unnecessary (on one side at least).

Cadaverous Pallor 10-16-2008 07:30 AM

Honestly, that puzzles me, scaeagles.

Of course the ENTIRE war debate is about whether or not the enemy is worthy of killing or not.

Abortion is sometimes a necessary evil. While all abortions are unfortunate, not all are unnecessary.

mousepod 10-16-2008 08:28 AM

scaeagles, to clarify my feeling about the Republican party being pro-war. In my lifetime, America has been involved in:

- Vietnam (while this was a JFK/LBJ concoction, my earliest memory of political awareness was Nixon and Cambodia).
- Grenada - Ronald Reagan
- Panama - George H. W. Bush
- Afghanistan - George W. Bush
- Iraq - George W Bush

Now, I know that you could point to Clinton's involvement in Bosnia, but I honestly see that as a NATO-led intervention that actually came almost too late.

I'm not saying that my feelings are 100% facts, it's just that I see Republicans as Hawks, and it doesn't sit right with me.

Strangler Lewis 10-16-2008 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246224)
Of course the ENTIRE abortion debate is about whether or not the unborn is alive or not.

I disagree. If you posed the question of what an embryo or fetus is as "animal, vegetable or mineral," you would have to answer "animal." Having answered that question, you have to answer the moral question of what dominion you have over that animal and under what circumstances it is necessary, reasonable or simply permissible to end its life.

Betty 10-16-2008 09:25 AM

Is it a seperate animal though or part of it's host until it can survive outside of it's host?

I'm not "pro abortion" but I'm certainly for politicians staying the heck out of my uterus... although up to a point I would draw the line and say - it's too f-ing late now.

BarTopDancer 10-16-2008 09:30 AM

Pro-choice does not equal pro abortion. Pro life does equal anti-abortion.

Pro-choice means you are for choice. If you feel an abortion is the best choice in your specific situation then have one. If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one.

Morrigoon 10-16-2008 09:58 AM

Betty: that's kind of what I use as a guideline. Obviously it's very difficult to define a line between when it's a part of the mother's body that she gets to have dominion over and when it must be considered an individual being that gets to impose itself on the mother a little longer.

A fertilized egg cannot survive out of the womb. A nearly full-term baby can. Where the line falls in the middle, tough to say. So I tend to think that when the baby could theoretically be delivered that day and survive, then it's too late to abort. That's somewhere around the 5.5-6 month mark, I believe. I think that's more than enough time to decide whether or not you're keeping it.

innerSpaceman 10-16-2008 10:01 AM

Yes, a tough decision. One most women don't want The State to make for them.


Obama nailed it on that one, and McCain played to his base ... which his running mate has already locked up, so I don't see the strategic point for him in alienating all the undecided white woman who are his only possible salvation at this point.

Moonliner 10-16-2008 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarTopDancer (Post 246292)
Pro life does equal anti-abortion.

I don't think I agree with that statement. I see myself as Pro-Life and Pro-choice.

Personally, I am Pro-Life. Abortion sucks, don't have one. There are almost always better options for the child.

Policy wise, I'm rabid Pro-Choice. I don't like abortion (I mean come on, who does?), but I really don't like the government interfering with our lives to that level. So if you want to do the wrong thing it sucks but it's a personal choice.

Ghoulish Delight 10-16-2008 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousepod (Post 246256)
scaeagles, to clarify my feeling about the Republican party being pro-war. In my lifetime, America has been involved in:

...

I'm not saying that my feelings are 100% facts, it's just that I see Republicans as Hawks, and it doesn't sit right with me.

And more to the point of intolerance, as I was bemoaning before, it's a party that is built on a base that believes "good family man" is the antonym to "Arab". THAT'S intolerance, and that's the sentiment that has lead us into war and I fear would continue to lead us into war under McCain out of fear and ignorance.

Gemini Cricket 10-16-2008 10:12 AM

My parents, for instance, are pro-life without any exceptions. I would call them pro-life/anti-abortion...

scaeagles 10-16-2008 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 246285)
I disagree. If you posed the question of what an embryo or fetus is as "animal, vegetable or mineral," you would have to answer "animal." Having answered that question, you have to answer the moral question of what dominion you have over that animal and under what circumstances it is necessary, reasonable or simply permissible to end its life.

You could ask the same question about any person walking down the street. I don't really understand this line of thinking.

Betty 10-16-2008 10:38 AM

I tend to feel that because it has to do only with women, it's somehow ok to many men to be Pro-Life.

For example, if the argument had something to do with their balls... for instance, if you chose not to use a condom and there was an unwanted pregancy, they could cut off one of your balls. Would you be pro choice for that? Why? Because it's not up to the government to decide if you have 1 ball or 2, or none at all?

Yeah - that's not a very good argument I know. But politician's just don't mess with men's junk. they shoudln't be messing with mine either.

How about - if ProLife meant you HAD to father a child. There was no choice. Think of all the wasted sperm that could be made into children? Or what if you coudln't have sex without the express purpose of producing a baby so as not to kill off any potential children. No rubbin one out either... to many lost children down the shower drain.

Okay - my arguments still aren't getting any better.

I guess I'm done.

Gemini Cricket 10-16-2008 10:53 AM

Quote:

"For those of you who are feeling giddy or cocky and think this is all set, I just [have] two words for you: New Hampshire," the Democratic presidential nominee said during a fundraiser breakfast in New York. "You know I've been in these positions before where we were favored and the press starts getting carried away and we end up getting spanked. And so that's another good lesson that Hillary Clinton taught me."
Source
See see see? Obama agrees with my Han Solo advice. "Don't get cocky." I will be happy once all the votes are counted and a winner is chosen. But I must say I'm more hopeful now.
:)

scaeagles 10-16-2008 11:05 AM

I'll say it - Obama has this in the bag. Unless there is a major October surprise in which a video of Obama meeting with Bin Laden in the caves of Pakistan and embracing him while handing him cash labelled "for anti aircraft stinger missiles" and then giving him a big wet tongue involved smooch, it's over.

Strangler Lewis 10-16-2008 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonliner (Post 246302)
I don't think I agree with that statement. I see myself as Pro-Life and Pro-choice.

Personally, I am Pro-Life. Abortion sucks, don't have one. There are almost always better options for the child.

Policy wise, I'm rabid Pro-Choice. I don't like abortion (I mean come on, who does?), but I really don't like the government interfering with our lives to that level. So if you want to do the wrong thing it sucks but it's a personal choice.

Or as Bill Clinton said, "safe, legal and rare."

Scrooge McSam 10-16-2008 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles
I'll say it - Obama has this in the bag. Unless there is a major October surprise in which a video of Obama meeting with Bin Laden in the caves of Pakistan and embracing him while handing him cash labelled "for anti aircraft stinger missiles" and then giving him a big wet tongue involved smooch, it's over.

Oh, I don't know... being found in bed with a dead white boy might do it

Strangler Lewis 10-16-2008 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246347)
I'll say it - Obama has this in the bag. Unless there is a major October surprise in which a video of Obama meeting with Bin Laden in the caves of Pakistan and embracing him while handing him cash labelled "for anti aircraft stinger missiles" and then giving him a big wet tongue involved smooch . . .

Which the right would immediately take out of context.

Morrigoon 10-16-2008 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScroogeMcSam
Oh, I don't know... being found in bed with a dead white boy might do it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 246353)
Which the right would immediately take out of context.

I read those one after the other, SL, and somehow my eyes glossed over the part you actually quoted. Made that remark quite funny. Had to share.

3894 10-16-2008 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 246327)
I tend to feel that because it has to do only with women, it's somehow ok to many men to be Pro-Life.

When McCain used air quotes around "health of the mother", he lost a lot of women's votes, I betcha.

If you didn't see it, here's a short youtube from the debate. Safe for work.

Ghoulish Delight 10-16-2008 11:31 AM

I'm more offended by "pro-abortion" than the air quotes.

innerSpaceman 10-16-2008 11:37 AM

That's because you're a man. :p

BarTopDancer 10-16-2008 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty (Post 246327)
I tend to feel that because it has to do only with women, it's somehow ok to many men to be Pro-Life.

I do wonder how many pro-life men would feel if their daughter was raped, ended up pregnant and forced to sustain the pregnancy because abortion was illegal. Or if their daughters health was at risk if the pregnancy was maintained. I also wonder how they propose to remedy the situation of dead-beat dads and dads that neglect to pay child support, leaving the woman struggling. If it takes two to tango, the government to say you have to have this child, or put it in an already messed up foster care system then how come the man is the one who is able to walk away with little to no consequences?

There are statistics that show child abuse and neglect rates dropping in the 60s after R v. W was implemented. There are also statistics that show the number of new gang members dropping to about 15 years later. This was attributed to abortion becoming legal and women who didn't want [would resent, abuse, neglect] their kids ultimately not having them. I'll see if I can find them later. We discussed this in one of my psych classes and also a womens study class.

scaeagles 10-16-2008 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrooge McSam (Post 246351)
Oh, I don't know... being found in bed with a dead white boy might do it


Are you suggesting Obama and McCain are having an affair?

scaeagles 10-16-2008 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 246353)
Which the right would immediately take out of context.


Well, it would obviously be because the right is homophobic.

Scrooge McSam 10-16-2008 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246373)
Are you suggesting Obama and McCain are having an affair?

I said "boy"

OH OH... I get it, you were making a funny. I skipped right over the dead and white part. Duh!

Good one! :snap:

But sadly no. I have no time to think of others' affairs. Just my own relationship with Rachel Maddow. The thought consumes me.

Strangler Lewis 10-16-2008 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246308)
You could ask the same question about any person walking down the street. I don't really understand this line of thinking.

Yes, you can. It just means that acknowledging that something called "life" begins at conception does not end the debate. If it did, then you could not have capital punishment. You might then say, well, in the abortion context, we're talking about innocent life. However, at that point, you're in the territory of moral judgments and have moved beyond the "when does life begin" argument as the determining factor of whether there is or should be the right to terminate a pregnancy.

innerSpaceman 10-16-2008 12:37 PM

pwned.

scaeagles 10-16-2008 12:59 PM

I don't think I was pwned at all. If it's life, which I understand you aren't conceding, wouldn't it then follow that it's human life?

Strangler Lewis 10-16-2008 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246407)
I don't think I was pwned at all. If it's life, which I understand you aren't conceding, wouldn't it then follow that it's human life?

Human life, or humanish as Stephen Colbert might say. I still don't know that that gets you to personhood for due process protections under Roe. But even if it does, so what. As I've said before, Roe is an impediment to the discussion. The fact that an activity may enjoy constitutional protection does not make it a moral one. The fact that it does not enjoy constitutional protection does not make its prohibition moral or rational. Being pro-choice, I see nothing wrong with saying that life--or lifeishness--begins at conception and still adopting a pragmatic Roe-like framework on the issue.

Snowflake 10-16-2008 01:10 PM

I miss Alex and Tengima!

innerSpaceman 10-16-2008 01:10 PM

Well that's anthropomorphism at it's finest.


No, Leo, life is not limited to human life. In fact, I'd say human life comprises an unfathomably tiny percentage of what is life.




Yeah, yeah, I know what you meant. But since it doesn't refute Strangler's point in the least, I felt like being obstinate.

scaeagles 10-16-2008 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 246413)
I still don't know that that gets you to personhood for due process protections under Roe.

Scalia even says he doesn't think the founders intended for the unborn to have the same rights as the born. He opposes Roe for other reasons.

But ISM, of course I know life isn't limited to human life. But since each species by definition gives birth to its own kind, if it is life, it would be human life.

BarTopDancer 10-16-2008 05:42 PM

Graphic Abortion Photos to be displayed on moving trucks in FL.

Story here.

Supposedly the organization is non-partisan, but they are going through a county that has been a battleground for the election.

JWBear 10-16-2008 06:33 PM

Disgusting

flippyshark 10-16-2008 07:13 PM

This graphic approach was very common back in the 80s, and I never saw anyone respond to it in any way except to feel contempt for those who put up the display. It's not an approach that changes people's minds. (
and apparently, these trucks will also feature images of the Holocaust, lynchings, and 9/11. Won't the children be delighted! Won't parents have a fine time getting them to sleep that night.)

I gotta agree with JWB. Disgusting, not to mention stupid. (I imagine even the more thoughtful among "right=to=life" supporters will hate this just as much.)

innerSpaceman 10-16-2008 07:38 PM

I also wonder if it's illegal. Disturbing the peace with stuff that's very disturbing.


And like flippyshark sez, that sound you hear is the trucks' backfire.

katiesue 10-16-2008 07:53 PM

There was a guy here with a truck with very graphic images that used to park down at Balboa Park. We'd have to pass it on the way to the zoo with Madz. Not something you really want your kid to see or have to explain.

Definately doesn't make me sympathetic to their point at all.

Betty 10-17-2008 06:12 AM

You'd think that there would something illegal about that - but I suppose they have a right to free speech as much as the rest of us.

Gemini Cricket 10-17-2008 11:37 AM

The Washington Post endorses Obama:
Quote:

The choice is made easy in part by Mr. McCain's disappointing campaign, above all his irresponsible selection of a running mate who is not ready to be president. It is made easy in larger part, though, because of our admiration for Mr. Obama and the impressive qualities he has shown during this long race. Yes, we have reservations and concerns, almost inevitably, given Mr. Obama's relatively brief experience in national politics. But we also have enormous hopes.
Source

Gemini Cricket 10-17-2008 12:40 PM

The Chicago Tribune Endorses Obama
Quote:

On Nov. 4 we're going to elect a president to lead us through a perilous time and restore in us a common sense of national purpose.

The strongest candidate to do that is Sen. Barack Obama. The Tribune is proud to endorse him today for president of the United States.
Quote:

This endorsement makes some history for the Chicago Tribune. This is the first time the newspaper has endorsed the Democratic Party's nominee for president.
Source

Strangler Lewis 10-17-2008 01:14 PM

Sounds like Colin Powell might endorse Obama on "Meet the Press" this Sunday.

Moonliner 10-17-2008 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 246726)
The Chicago Tribune Endorses Obama


Source

I forget, what state is Chicago in?

innerSpaceman 10-17-2008 01:22 PM

Not the point (though that's immediately what I thought of, too). With no further information, I would have thought "D'uh." But with the proviso that the paper has never before endorsed the Democratic nominee, this is worthy of news in some other paper.

Gemini Cricket 10-17-2008 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonliner (Post 246730)
I forget, what state is Chicago in?

First Democrat endorsement ever.
That's pretty big, imho.
Hell just froze over.
:D

Strangler Lewis 10-17-2008 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippyshark (Post 246529)
This graphic approach was very common back in the 80s, and I never saw anyone respond to it in any way except to feel contempt for those who put up the display. It's not an approach that changes people's minds. (
and apparently, these trucks will also feature images of the Holocaust, lynchings, and 9/11. Won't the children be delighted! Won't parents have a fine time getting them to sleep that night.)

I gotta agree with JWB. Disgusting, not to mention stupid. (I imagine even the more thoughtful among "right=to=life" supporters will hate this just as much.)

I can't say I'm against the approach, although it's a tricky question as to how much "reality" people should be exposed to that might distract them from the higher principles being served. For example, people protested when the Bush administration would not allow photos of flag draped coffins of soldiers coming home. If abortion photos are not relevant to the discussion, are images of the horrors of war, nuclear weapons, etc. relevant to the decision to engage in such conduct, or should we avoid them because we've already reasoned that the ends justify the means and we don't want the emotional impact of the means to distract us from the ends?

I'm also not sure that such displays can't have an impact on people. There are people who go around inner city schools trying to teach the kids the reality of gun violence, i.e., you think it's cool being shot? Look at these kids in the hospital and how messed up they are. And so on.

mousepod 10-17-2008 01:24 PM

Adlai Stevenson was a Democratic nominee - - twice. Neither time was he endorsed by the Trib.

Gemini Cricket 10-17-2008 02:34 PM

I guess today is newspaper endorsement day.

LA Times is for Obama.
Quote:

The Times without hesitation endorses Barack Obama for president.
Source

Tom 10-17-2008 04:20 PM

It's also the first time the LA Times has ever endorsed a Democrat for president (they last endorsed a presidential candidate in 1972).

SacTown Chronic 10-17-2008 10:19 PM

Sent in my absentee ballot yesterday.

My unofficial third son, Kaelyn (Scrooge McSam has met him) - the son of a white woman and a black man - filled in the bubble for Barack Obama for me. It was a moment of pride in my country for me....and a huge helping of 'I can do anything' for my boy, Kaelyn.

Yesterday was a very good day.

Gemini Cricket 10-17-2008 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic (Post 246851)
Sent in my absentee ballot yesterday.

My unofficial third son, Kaelyn (Scrooge McSam has met him) - the son of a white woman and a black man - filled in the bubble for Barack Obama for me. It was a moment of pride in my country for me....and a huge helping of 'I can do anything' for my boy, Kaelyn.

Yesterday was a very good day.

So very awesome.
:)

Bornieo: Fully Loaded 10-17-2008 11:36 PM

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=18481

Obama: "I Was Born On Krypton!"

Quote:

Favored U.S. Presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama continued his historical campaign last night at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner in New York City, where he once again courted the coveted “geek vote” by including in his speech the revelation that he was born on Krypton and sent by his father, Jor-El, to “save the planet Earth,” a clear reference to Superman.
Quote:


Obama previously associated himself with superhero comics’ most beloved icon in a famous photograph of the Senator posing with the Superman statue in downtown Metropolis, Illinois; and in “Obama-man,” an illustration by hugely popular comic book artist Alex Ross that depicts the Senator in the classic Clark Kent-Superman mold.


The Democratic Senator from Illinois also referenced geek paragon Mad Magazine, remarking, “It’s been said that I share the politics of Alfred E. Smith and the ears of Alfred E. Neuman.” Additionally, Obama has been endorsed by indie comics mainstay The Savage Dragon as well as Comics Industry for...Obama!, an organized group of comics professionals. Further, the Senator was reported to have identified "Star Trek" actor Leonard "Mr. Spock" Nimoy at a campaign event and acknowledged him with the Vulcan gesture of respect.



Beleaguered Republican candidate Senator John McCain may have been appealing to right-leaning geek constituents by spending the evening sitting next to Cardinal Edward M. Egan, head of the Archdiocese of New York, whose bright red robes invoked memories of the Imperial Guard of legendary “Star Wars” villain Emperor Palpatine, who McCain is said to resemble strongly.

Gemini Cricket 10-17-2008 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bornieo: Fully Loaded (Post 246864)
Obama: "I Was Born On Krypton!"

I guessed it! I was right! I predicted it in my avatar... you know, 9 avatars ago.

JWBear 10-18-2008 10:04 AM

Obama is a comic geek? Whowouldathunk?

Snowflake 10-18-2008 12:29 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 246772)
I guess today is newspaper endorsement day.

Snowflake is for Obama.

Spoiler:

Ghoulish Delight 10-18-2008 03:48 PM

Fitzgeralds in downtown Vegas has Obama cutouts all over the casino.

wendybeth 10-19-2008 12:05 AM

I can, and I did. Our ballots arrived today, and I voted - with a little help from the ToriBear. I let her fill in the Obama/Biden spot, which I feel is only right. It's her generation, and the ones that follow, that will be paying the price for these past eight years. I hope that she feels the same way about voting as I always have, and that five years from now she will feel the same thrill I did when I turned 18 and first registered to vote. Hopefully, she won't encounter as many keggers along the way......:D

wendybeth 10-19-2008 12:07 AM

I just wanted to add how very thrilled I was to FINALLY be able to vote for Obama. No matter what happens, I know I was part of something good- a small part, to be sure, but a part nonetheless.

lashbear 10-19-2008 01:05 AM

*sticks head in room*

Oh, so this election thingy is STILL going on. Geez. It started, what, 3 years ago now?? :p Pblblblbllbplblblblblblbpppf.

*runs out of room again*

Snowflake 10-19-2008 08:03 AM

Colin Powell has now endorsed Obama. This is to be a real blow to the McCain campaign and the GOP. He's scheduled on Meet The Press today, I will be watching.

MouseWife 10-19-2008 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 246975)
Colin Powell has now endorsed Obama. This is to be a real blow to the McCain campaign and the GOP. He's scheduled on Meet The Press today, I will be watching.


I just saw this. Awesome.

But, I like how Obama is telling his people not to declare victory right off.

And, I can't believe Palin is blaming this 'ACORN' mess on Obama? Nothing has been proven but in the past it has been proven that there was corruption within the voting places on the plus side for the Rs.

How about the people who register you to vote and telling people to leave it open that they would fill it in and then putting R? Or the people who did that and tossed the ones who were Ds?

This has happened prior and also currently.

Oh, sharing this with the kids~ I brought my son in last night to watch SNL. And, we discuss Prop h8 often with the children. {who aren't really} But, that is for another thread.....

Scrooge McSam 10-19-2008 09:38 AM

HELP!! I think I'm addicted. I can't stop watching the SNL Palin rap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Governor Sarah Palin
...it might just cross the line.

My country 'tis of thee
From my porch I can see
Russia and such...

ALL THE MAVERICKS IN THE HOUSE PUT YOUR HANDS UP!!
ALL THE MAVERICKS IN THE HOUSE PUT YOUR HANDS UP!!
ALL THE PLUMBERS IN THE HOUSE PULL YOUR PANTS UP!!
ALL THE PLUMBERS IN THE HOUSE PULL YOUR PANTS UP!!

Gemini Cricket 10-19-2008 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrooge McSam (Post 246979)
HELP!! I think I'm addicted. I can't stop watching the SNL Palin rap.

Liked the rap.
:D

A couple of other things:
Amy Poelher: Funny as heck, you betcha. The woman is rapping and still working on the show and is like ready to give birth like right this second.
Sketch: On the whole, the sketch was funny-ish.
The Real Sarah Palin: Not all that funny. Lame. Good sport, but boring to watch.
Tina Fey: More interesting to watch as Sarah Palin than Sarah Palin is.
Seth Meyers: Cute cute cute freakin' smile. I'm in love.
Last night's SNL: Outside of Mark Wahlberg, the rap and the Tina/Palin sketch at the beginning... SUCKED! In fact, SNL (outside of their recent political stuff) is sucking suck juice.

:D

I thought the rap was decent, but I thought they could have gone a thousand different places with Palin and kind of just let her sit there... The short shot where Palin and Fey crossed paths at the beginning was great.
:D

Scrooge McSam 10-19-2008 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 246982)
Seth Meyers: Cute cute cute freakin' smile. I'm in love.

:D

Gemini Cricket 10-19-2008 11:34 AM

"Caribou Barbie" = freakin' funny, you betcha.
:D

Deebs 10-19-2008 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 246982)
Amy Poelher: Funny as heck, you betcha. The woman is rapping and still working on the show and is like ready to give birth like right this second.

OhIknow. Looks like she should have had that baby last week.

Quote:

Tina Fey: More interesting to watch as Sarah Palin than Sarah Palin is.
Most definitely.

Quote:

Seth Meyers: Cute cute cute freakin' smile.
He is really cute, but Andy Samberg makes me laugh more, which means he is cuter to me. Funny and/or nice = crushworthy. Both = totally swoonworthy.

Quote:

Last night's SNL: Outside of Mark Wahlberg, the rap and the Tina/Palin sketch at the beginning... SUCKED! In fact, SNL (outside of their recent political stuff) is sucking suck juice.
Agreed. Usually when I watch I end up asking myself why I did. But in between the suckage, every now and then there is something really hilarious, so I never completely give up on it. Plus, you know, Andy Samberg. :D

Ghoulish Delight 10-20-2008 09:44 AM

Predictably, conservative pundits are doing some serious sour-graping over the Colin Powell endorsement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_135968.html

wendybeth 10-20-2008 09:49 AM

I guess George Will forgot about his negative comments regarding John McCain a few weeks ago. He probably got spanked by the Party. I loved this: (not)

"There will be "some impact," Will declared. "And I think this adds to my calculation -- this is very hard to measure -- but it seems to me if we had the tools to measure we'd find that Barack Obama gets two votes because he's black for every one he loses because he's black because so much of this country is so eager, a, to feel good about itself by doing this, but more than that to put paid to the whole Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson game of political rhetoric."


What a ****ing idiot. Yeah, I'm voting for Obama because of white guilt. That's it. McCain is just so much more superior, but I just want to feel good about electing a black man so I'm going with the other candidate. THIS is why they will lose this election- could you be any more in denial and out of touch with the citizenry of this country?

scaeagles 10-20-2008 09:55 AM

I think what he's talking about is related to the Bradley effect (referring to, i think, a CA governors election?).

The Bradley effect is basically that white people lied to pollsters about who they voted for because they didn't want anyone to think they didn't vote for Bradley because he was black. Polling showed Bradley was going to win by double digits, but he lost.

Conversely, I would suppose there are a lot of people who feel guilty about racism and may indeed vote for a black man simply because he is black. Isn't that as valid as the accusation that many won't vote for him because he is black?

wendybeth 10-20-2008 10:07 AM

Well, I know people who are voting for McCain because he is old. The last, dying gasp of the elder Boomers, who still want to be the big societal influence they've always been as a group and can't stand the thought of letting the next generation have a whack at running things. I've had many discussions with such persons, and even though they might have little in common with McCain ideologically they are tempted to vote for him merely because he's in their age range. So sure, there are people who will vote for Obama because he's a black man, but I'm not so sure I buy Scaeagle's Bradley explanation. I cannot see where in that statement that Will mentions this- he's seems pretty specific about the black guilt thing actually moving people to cast a vote, not lying to pollsters.

Gemini Cricket 10-20-2008 10:10 AM

I have mixed feelings about the Powell endorsement. What he said was eloquent and hit the mark. But I also remember him with a vial in his hands talking about WMDs, assisting in the push to go to war with Iraq. And Obama's praise of the man and telling the media Powell will be an adviser of his concerns me a great deal.

Ghoulish Delight 10-20-2008 10:12 AM

I don't remember where I posted it, but fivethirtyeight.com showed some numbers that said 6% of responders would not vote for Obama because he is black, while 9% said they would vote for Obama simply because is black. You've got to figure that the 6% number is low (the Bradley effect), but even with that fudge factor built in, the idiots pretty much balance each other out.

But none of that has anything to do with the hateful questioning of Powell's motivations. Cause, really, he's shown himself to be such a racially motivated wag in his career, right? :rolleyes:



ETA: re: GC, he's also since made it known that he was very much on the outside of the administration and fed very distorted information and that he very much regrets being involved and influential in that decision making process.

flippyshark 10-20-2008 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 247046)
I think what he's talking about is related to the Bradley effect (referring to, i think, a CA governors election?).

The Bradley effect is basically that white people lied to pollsters about who they voted for because they didn't want anyone to think they didn't vote for Bradley because he was black. Polling showed Bradley was going to win by double digits, but he lost.

Conversely, I would suppose there are a lot of people who feel guilty about racism and may indeed vote for a black man simply because he is black. Isn't that as valid as the accusation that many won't vote for him because he is black?

It will be impossible to know if this is a factor until the event is over. For what it's worth, I'm not voting for Alan Keyes, and I feel no white liberal guilt for that fact whatsoever.

scaeagles 10-20-2008 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wendybeth (Post 247052)
So sure, there are people who will vote for Obama because he's a black man, but I'm not so sure I buy Scaeagle's Bradley explanation. I cannot see where in that statement that Will mentions this- he's seems pretty specific about the black guilt thing actually moving people to cast a vote, not lying to pollsters.

I'm just theorizing using that well known example.

I don't understand why it's so unreasonable, really. What he's saying is that in the current USA environment of race relations, yes, there are those who won't vote for him because he's black, and that there may be more who vote for him because he is, and that group includes white people with angst over days with race relations that were much, much worse than they are now.

scaeagles 10-20-2008 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippyshark (Post 247058)
It will be impossible to know if this is a factor until the event is over. For what it's worth, I'm not voting for Alan Keyes, and I feel no white liberal guilt for that fact whatsoever.

And I believe most people are like you. And like me. It's about policy, not about race.

As far as Powell goes, though, Powell has said that having a black President would be "electrifying". That may not be his overwhelming motivation, but it is apparent that it comes into play a bit because of that statement.

wendybeth 10-20-2008 10:18 AM

Because he's being dismissive of Obama's voter base, calling into question their intelligence and motivation. He doesn't get it. Well, actually I think he does get it, but the truth is far scarier than the lame-assed excuse he is offering up.

Gemini Cricket 10-20-2008 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 247057)
...and that he very much regrets being involved and influential in that decision making process.

Which he should. When Powell started waving the 'let's bomb Iraq' flag, I was convinced that the world had gone mad. Bush, Cheney, Powell among others are the faces of the Iraq War to me. This endorsement, as effective as it might be for Mr. Obama, doesn't change the fact that I think Powell didn't ask enough questions and didn't push back hard enough during the ramp up to the war. Even if he did feel that he was on the outside, that should have made him question what was going on even more.

innerSpaceman 10-20-2008 10:40 AM

Yep, Powell's credibility is zero with me. And frankly, I think the endorsements of people and newspapers rate near zero with the vast majority of voters.

alphabassettgrrl 10-20-2008 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 246211)
Being pro-war (assuming you mean Iraq) is intolerant? I'm not sure how.

Being pro-life is intolerant? Certainly blowing up clinics and threatening to shoot abortion doctors is, but it's been a really long time since I can remember such a thing happening, and those things have never been a platform of the republican party.

Pro-war: culture of violence, as opposed to violence being an option of last resort. Not sure I'd use "intolerant" but certainly undesirable in my book. A person (or nation) can be strong without always threatening violence.

While blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors isn't part of the conservative platform, I didn't see the condemnation of it coming from the Right.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis (Post 246350)
Or as Bill Clinton said, "safe, legal and rare."

I'll drink to that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarTopDancer (Post 246369)
There are statistics that show child abuse and neglect rates dropping in the 60s after R v. W was implemented. There are also statistics that show the number of new gang members dropping to about 15 years later. This was attributed to abortion becoming legal and women who didn't want [would resent, abuse, neglect] their kids ultimately not having them.

I heard that on a radio show. I'm sure there's documentation somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic (Post 246851)
Sent in my absentee ballot yesterday.

Hurray!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 246982)
Amy Poelher: Funny as heck, you betcha. The woman is rapping and still working on the show and is like ready to give birth like right this second.
...
The Real Sarah Palin: Not all that funny. Lame. Good sport, but boring to watch.
...
I thought the rap was decent, but I thought they could have gone a thousand different places with Palin and kind of just let her sit there... The short shot where Palin and Fey crossed paths at the beginning was great.
:D

What? The pregnancy's real? Huh. I haven't been following the show. She was funny though. I agree that Palin in person wasn't as funny as the SNL folks but she was a good sport and I'll give her props for that. Enjoy your 15 minutes, dear, and then go back to Alaska. I loved the bit at the beginning with Sarah and Tina Fey! Awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 247046)
Conversely, I would suppose there are a lot of people who feel guilty about racism and may indeed vote for a black man simply because he is black. Isn't that as valid as the accusation that many won't vote for him because he is black?

I absolutely agree. Please vote on issues, not demographics. I'm likely going to vote for Obama, but not out of guilt. I like his style, I like how he reacts to things that happen, and I like most of his policies. I want people to vote on issues, and the level of ignorance out there in the world makes me absolutely cringe.

Tom 10-20-2008 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarTopDancer
There are statistics that show child abuse and neglect rates dropping in the 60s after R v. W was implemented. There are also statistics that show the number of new gang members dropping to about 15 years later. This was attributed to abortion becoming legal and women who didn't want [would resent, abuse, neglect] their kids ultimately not having them.
Quote:

Originally Posted by alphabassettgrrl (Post 247079)
I heard that on a radio show. I'm sure there's documentation somewhere.

The theory is explored at length in the book Freaknomics, and elaboration of the theory and criticism of it can be found here.

scaeagles 10-20-2008 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphabassettgrrl (Post 247079)
Pro-war: culture of violence, as opposed to violence being an option of last resort. Not sure I'd use "intolerant" but certainly undesirable in my book. A person (or nation) can be strong without always threatening violence.

While blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors isn't part of the conservative platform, I didn't see the condemnation of it coming from the Right.

We've been over the disagreements on this, but with 12 UN resolutions on Iraq, war was hardly a first option.

Yes, to reasonable people, violence is not always necessary. However, the world is full of unreasonable people who only will play nicely when threats of violence that will be followed through on are used. Otherwise there is no deterrence.

Re:clinics and doctors -
Of course the vast majority of the right has condemned such actions when they have taken place. There are the far, far, far, right fringe elements that don't condemn it, but that's, well, the fringe. Not unlike most people on the left who were against the Vietnam war didn't support blowing up US governmnet buildings in protest.

LSPoorEeyorick 10-21-2008 01:58 PM

Just popping in to say that I want to carve a pumpkin. Wish we had more time to have a carving party.

Moonliner 10-21-2008 02:04 PM

As the nominee for Vice President of the United States, has any major party ever nominated an individual less qualified than Ms. Palin?

Palin Claims The Vice President Is ‘In Charge Of The U.S. Senate'

Quote:

Originally Posted by News
Q: Brandon Garcia wants to know, “What does the Vice President do?”

PALIN: That’s something that Piper would ask me! … [T]hey’re in charge of the U.S. Senate so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom.


JWBear 10-21-2008 02:11 PM

Quote:

PALIN: That’s something that Piper would ask me! … [T]hey’re in charge of the U.S. Senate so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom.
WTF???

Snowflake 10-21-2008 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick (Post 247487)
Just popping in to say that I want to carve a pumpkin. Wish we had more time to have a carving party.

Fabulous link LSPE!

Yes We Carve! :cool:

Snowflake 10-21-2008 02:19 PM

Sarah Palin just makes me hang my head in shame.

Ghoulish Delight 10-21-2008 02:20 PM

Tina Fey said it best on Letterman: You look at her and get the sense that she's just as smart as me...and that's just not good enough for VP damnit!

Cadaverous Pallor 10-21-2008 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick (Post 247487)
Just popping in to say that I want to carve a pumpkin. Wish we had more time to have a carving party.

How weird, I was thinking about this myself just this morning, for no reason. I'm a bit worried of pissing off my neighbors who already don't like us much, or ending up with a smashed pumpkin (which I'm not sure I could handle in a mature fashion). But, the idea did pop into my head and now I want to do it even more...

Gemini Cricket 10-21-2008 04:10 PM

Forget Palin. They should have called Obama the Barackuda.
:D

Tom 10-21-2008 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 247506)
Tina Fey said it best on Letterman: You look at her and get the sense that she's just as smart as me...and that's just not good enough for VP damnit!

I've never looked at her and thought she's just as smart as me. I'm surprised you did.

Ghoulish Delight 10-21-2008 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 247558)
I've never looked at her and thought she's just as smart as me. I'm surprised you did.

Here's the thing.

1) It was the politest way to say it.
2) I am well aware that our perception of her is highly distorted. She was thrown into a world that was WAY out of her league and she floundered. She came out looking far dumber than she actually is. I can't imagine being sat down in front of Katie Couric with as little preparation time as they gave her and coming off looking particularly intelligent. It's like taking a college baseball player who was a walk on on his team, making him face Nolan Ryan in his prime, and pointing and laughing at him when he strikes out and nearly falls down swinging at a 100mph fastball.

I do not think she's a blathering moron. I think she possesses the attitude that is courted by the Republican party that values brashness and "gumption" over knowledge. That attitude earned her the governorship, so I don't blame her for holding on to it. But playing it by ear doesn't cut it in the majors. She got a very ugly, painful lesson in the difference between ability and skill, and the reality that just because you got a knack for something doesn't mean you don't also have to sit down and gather some knowledge to rise to the highest level.

LSPoorEeyorick 10-21-2008 05:08 PM

This is all true, but I highly doubt you'd answer a question like "what periodicals do you read" with "all of them." Surely, anyone thrown into that situation is under unusual pressure. But she's said some things that are simply baffling. I think Tina Fey was simply being polite.

JWBear 10-21-2008 05:22 PM

She (Palin, not Fey) doesn't do well under pressure, I think. Her brain just shuts down. That would not bode well for a Palin Presidency.

Tom 10-21-2008 05:30 PM

I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I was not here (or anywhere) posting in the immediate aftermath of her being selected, already harping on her. I thought I'd watch her for a while before passing judgement. I have watched her for several weeks, and even allowing for the crash course she has been subjected to, and allowing that even an intelligent person can often formulate sentences that make no sense, and make every other allowance I can for her, I just can't find much there there.

flippyshark 10-21-2008 05:45 PM

The McCain thread long ago became almost entirely focused on Palin, but, why must it happen to this thread also?!

Tom 10-21-2008 10:49 PM

Eventually all threads will be about Palin...

tracilicious 10-21-2008 11:01 PM

I am so carving an Obama pumpkin!!!!

scaeagles 10-22-2008 04:46 AM

Obama....Haloween...scary...yeah, I get it.

Cadaverous Pallor 10-22-2008 07:43 AM

We have a neighbor with a rather elaborate haunted yard...with a McCain sign in the middle. I don't know if they are trying to promote the elder statesman by putting zombies and ghosts around it...;)

3894 10-22-2008 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 247656)
Obama....Haloween...scary...yeah, I get it.

Then you've heard the radio spot they're playing up here a lot? The one where we learn that Obama will take away your hunting ammo, blah, blah, blah. All the usual twisted scare tactics.

scaeagles 10-22-2008 08:42 AM

Neither side of the political spectrum has a strangle hold on ridiculous scare tactics. I won't list them for fear of being accused of deflection, but when you say "usual", I can cite "usual" leftist scare tactics as well.

Morrigoon 10-22-2008 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor (Post 247675)
We have a neighbor with a rather elaborate haunted yard...with a McCain sign in the middle. I don't know if they are trying to promote the elder statesman by putting zombies and ghosts around it...;)

Picture? Could make a great LOLcat-type image ;)

JWBear 10-22-2008 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 247696)
Neither side of the political spectrum has a strangle hold on ridiculous scare tactics. I won't list them for fear of being accused of deflection, but when you say "usual", I can cite "usual" leftist scare tactics as well.

Really? Please do.

innerSpaceman 10-22-2008 10:09 AM

Yes, scaeagles, for our edification and delight, please share two or three.


And while you're at it, please provide any concrete examples of Democrats perpetrating voter fraud, when it's the Republicans' exclusive province.

They stole Ohio in 2004, and it's been PROVEN with photographic evidence of hundreds of thousands of altered ballots, far more than the margin of defeat for Kerry.

Now, instances of voter machines registering McCain votes upon pressing the Obama buttons are turning up at early voter locations all over the country.


Republicans are fearmeisters and theives and I challenge you to demonstrate any such thing on the Democrat side.

Meanwhile, ACORN so scrupulously investigates their incoming voter registrations for errrors (because, yes, there's financial incentive in gathering them) that they turned all the errors found in Nevada immediately over to the Secretary of State ... a Repulican who prompty cried VOTER FRAUD and started this whole completely BOGUS smear campaign on ACORN as yet another Republican tactic of voter suppression, which they practice - AGAIN EXCLUSIVELY - even more virulently than they do voter fraud.


FEAR AND ELECTION THEFT ARE THE PROVINCE OF REPUBLICANS. I dare you to demonstrate otherwise.

Ghoulish Delight 10-22-2008 10:15 AM

Back on topic for a moment:

The Obama campaign is showing no signs of coasting on this lead:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27315660/

Quote:

Given the state of the race, might think that the atmosphere would be giddy in Obama headquarters on Michigan Ave. in downtown Chicago.

Not exactly.


When I walked in for my first visit in months the atmosphere was the same as it was then: quiet, purposeful, and no-nonsense.
On what looked like a vast open trading floor, the twenty- and thirty-somethings went about their business, none of them in coats and ties, many of them looking like graduate students, would-be lawyers, and MBAs crashing a collaborative research project.


On an easel outside the entrance, the first person to work that morning — a retired school administrator named Mary Shepard Hughes — had written an inspiration and an a warning: “TWO SHORT WEEKS. TWO LITTLE WORDS: NEW HAMPSHIRE.”


In a campaign that has, from the start, functioned with incredible smoothness overall, the unexpected primary loss of New Hampshire to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton still rankles — and serves as a cautionary tale.

Also interesting in that article was what Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, had to say about sharing the huge amount of campaign donations they've received with other Dems running for other offices. The response was that they weren't going to hand them money, instead they're using the money to put people on the streets to get democrats to register and vote. And you know, if I were a Dem running for office, I'd be cool with that. I mean, lord knows they've proven that they know how to get sh*t done with that money thus far, why stop them now?

Strangler Lewis 10-22-2008 10:22 AM

On the crumbling from within front, I can't think of anything worse that could happen to this country than 1) to revisit the McCarthy era where the awesome might of the government is put behind investigations of the loyalty of its citizens and 2) to have this country declare itself officially or semi-officially a Christian nation. Republicans are going down this road--again--now. Probably most of them don't mean it, but that doesn't make it much better.

Ghoulish Delight 10-22-2008 10:22 AM

Well said, SL

Morrigoon 10-22-2008 10:30 AM

I think it's going to take a prolonged period of extreme liberalism to get the Republican party to swing moderate again (in other words, the Dems will have to get so over-the-top liberal that the moderates start gravitating to the other party, and the other party starts to see even moderate stances as a win.) I also think it would take a very long time for that to happen.

BarTopDancer 10-22-2008 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 247736)

Also from that article

Quote:

CHICAGO - What do states like Georgia, South Carolina, North Dakota and even Arizona have in common?

They’re all reach states that the Obama campaign now believes could be in play.
It will be a huge statement if AZ goes to Obama.

LSPoorEeyorick 10-22-2008 11:07 AM

Have you guys seen this series of photos by Callie Shell? I actually teared up. Make sure you keep clicking "show more images" because there are some terrific ones down the line.

Snowflake 10-22-2008 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick (Post 247755)
Have you guys seen this series of photos by Callie Shell? I actually teared up. Make sure you keep clicking "show more images" because there are some terrific ones down the line.

I get a broken link showing more images. :(

LSPoorEeyorick 10-22-2008 11:16 AM

Do you see the first couple, or is the whole link broken? It's working for me. D'oh, SF, I really wanted you to see these!

Morrigoon 10-22-2008 11:18 AM

Dude, LSPE, I am *loving* these pictures!

LSPoorEeyorick 10-22-2008 11:20 AM

They're totally beautiful. And inspiring. And catch those usually-unseen moments that represent what I most like about the man.

innerSpaceman 10-22-2008 11:24 AM

Yep, more images link broken for me, too and boo-hoo.

LSPoorEeyorick 10-22-2008 11:25 AM

Do you have the most recent version of flash installed? They flash in, I think. It sucks that you can't see them. What a bummer, they're great.

Stan4dSteph 10-22-2008 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowflake (Post 247756)
I get a broken link showing more images. :(

I do too. I can see the first few in the "Obama" Gallery, but the show more images link is broken. That one --> http://digitaljournalist.org/issue08...ie_thumbs.html

wendybeth 10-22-2008 11:31 AM

LS, those pictures are just beautiful. Thank you.:)


Is it me, or does Obama remind anyone else of RFK? There's just something about his demeanor that really reminds me of him. I was very young when RFK was murdered, but I loved him. I wanted him to be my dad, probably because he already had 11 kids and what's one more? I was five when he died, but I remember him pretty well for being so young at the time.

Morrigoon 10-22-2008 11:32 AM

Well, to me they show his realism. He's portrayed as elitist, and intellectually I think he is (and should be), but in terms of real life experience and being able to relate, I see him as a much more "real" person. These pictures show that.

I'm sure someone could make a photo essay of McCain full of touching moments, but they wouldn't be the same moments, and it's the moments that define him.

Gemini Cricket 10-22-2008 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick (Post 247755)
Have you guys seen this series of photos by Callie Shell? I actually teared up. Make sure you keep clicking "show more images" because there are some terrific ones down the line.

Thank you for posting that link. Very touching photos. I teared up.
:)

LSPoorEeyorick 10-22-2008 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 247770)
Well, to me they show his realism. He's portrayed as elitist, and intellectually I think he is (and should be), but in terms of real life experience and being able to relate, I see him as a much more "real" person. These pictures show that.

Oh, exactly - that is what I was alluding to. One thing that I really like about him is that he makes a real effort to listen and connect with people, to understand what they need. Photos like the one of him comforting the woman who lost her son in Iraq - a similar photo of McCain would not have revealed the same kind of connection between the candidate and the citizen he's running to represent.

Cadaverous Pallor 10-22-2008 06:51 PM

Lovely photos I'm thinking of saving them on my computer.

There's a McCain photo gallery on the same site. The contrast is stark. Of course, it could be a photographer's bias...

CoasterMatt 10-22-2008 06:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
How about this picture? Just what's going on? :D

Cadaverous Pallor 10-22-2008 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon (Post 247708)
Picture? Could make a great LOLcat-type image ;)

From my crappy camera phone:


CoasterMatt 10-22-2008 06:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Or this?

Cadaverous Pallor 10-22-2008 07:00 PM

Damn, that cracked me up. Visible mojo.

innerSpaceman 10-22-2008 07:07 PM

Heheh, I love the McCain Palin Graveyard of Dead Ideologies.


As for the photo of Obama with the biggest smile i've EVER seen on his face while the little tyke's face is planted in his crotch ... well, all I can say is I'm glad the link to further pictures didn't work for me.

:eek:

innerSpaceman 10-22-2008 07:33 PM

This is a little late ... but I think Obama may have just won back my vote.

Although I'd heard clips of it, I finally saw his entire performance at the Al Smith dinner, and, um, he's hysterical. If he can do comedy on top of everything else, I think I'm really going to enjoy him as president (and the comedic part more likely as former president later on.)


Really he's a riot.

Gemini Cricket 10-22-2008 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 247933)
Really he's a riot.

Very funny.
Here it is.

Morrigoon 10-23-2008 09:39 AM

Oh, I loved that speech!

Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 09:39 AM

I'm speechless.
SFW
Ron Howard's Call to Action
I don't know what to say...
:eek:

Snowflake 10-23-2008 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman (Post 247933)
This is a little late ... but I think Obama may have just won back my vote.

Although I'd heard clips of it, I finally saw his entire performance at the Al Smith dinner, and, um, he's hysterical. If he can do comedy on top of everything else, I think I'm really going to enjoy him as president (and the comedic part more likely as former president later on.)


Really he's a riot.

In all fairness, McCain was a hoot, as well.

Snowflake 10-23-2008 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 248037)
I'm speechless.
SFW
Ron Howard's Call to Action
I don't know what to say...
:eek:

Okay, I laughed.
Creative, fun and definitely going for the weird nostalgia skew for the voters.

I think it was brave of them in a way, I mean, it is very creepy to see and old Opie and an Old Fonz. That said, I loved it.

Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 10:25 AM

Don't get me wrong, I laughed too and agree with his message. But the whole thing kinda hit me in a Baby Jane sort of way if you know what I mean.
:D

Strangler Lewis 10-23-2008 10:33 AM

That was way cool.

Snowflake 10-23-2008 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 248056)
Don't get me wrong, I laughed too and agree with his message. But the whole thing kinda hit me in a Baby Jane sort of way if you know what I mean.
:D

Well, maybe we should do an Obama mash up for this? Which is, infinitely scarier! :D

cirquelover 10-23-2008 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 248037)
I'm speechless.
SFW
Ron Howard's Call to Action
I don't know what to say...
:eek:

I thought it was kind of cool. Also not anything I ever expeted to see Ron Howard do again but I enjoyed it. Thanks for the link!

Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirquelover (Post 248072)
I thought it was kind of cool. Also not anything I ever expeted to see Ron Howard do again but I enjoyed it. Thanks for the link!

From what I hear, he hates hates hates when people refer to him as Opie or Richie Cunningham. So for him to do this (like he said) shows how serious he is about it.

Ghoulish Delight 10-23-2008 11:17 AM

Yeah, that's pretty much what I got out of the video.

Cadaverous Pallor 10-23-2008 11:33 AM

I really have to start remembering to bring my headphones to my computer breaks

flippyshark 10-23-2008 11:34 AM

There's a link on the same page to a video featuring Natalie Portman (meh) and Rashida Jones (Yowch! She is scorching!) who have the definitive answer to the world's economic crisis. Check it out, I promise you won't be sorry. :)

Not Afraid 10-23-2008 11:38 AM


Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippyshark (Post 248081)
There's a link on the same page to a video featuring Natalie Portman (meh) and Rashida Jones (Yowch! She is scorching!) who have the definitive answer to the world's economic crisis. Check it out, I promise you won't be sorry. :)

"I am Not Afraid and I approve of this commercial." ~ Not Afraid

:D

3894 10-23-2008 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippyshark (Post 248081)
Check it out, I promise you won't be sorry. :)

flippyshark, you owe me the 400 brain cells I just lost. And I didn't have all that many to spare in the first place.

BarTopDancer 10-23-2008 01:40 PM

For some reason this makes me happy


Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 02:12 PM

The "Hey Sarah Palin" couple made a new YouTube video. It's to Young MC's Bust a Move. It's better than the other one, imho. This guy is a pretty clever writer.
Click

JWBear 10-23-2008 03:31 PM

I didn't know Andy Griffith was still alive!

Ghoulish Delight 10-23-2008 03:34 PM

Even after seeing that video I'm not entirely convinced.

Ghoulish Delight 10-23-2008 04:10 PM

Why Barack Obama is Winning

Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 07:02 PM

New York Times Endorses Obama - no surprise there...
 
Quote:

Hyperbole is the currency of presidential campaigns, but this year the nation’s future truly hangs in the balance.
The United States is battered and drifting after eight years of President Bush’s failed leadership. He is saddling his successor with two wars, a scarred global image and a government systematically stripped of its ability to protect and help its citizens — whether they are fleeing a hurricane’s floodwaters, searching for affordable health care or struggling to hold on to their homes, jobs, savings and pensions in the midst of a financial crisis that was foretold and preventable.
As tough as the times are, the selection of a new president is easy. After nearly two years of a grueling and ugly campaign, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois has proved that he is the right choice to be the 44th president of the United States.
Source

BarTopDancer 10-23-2008 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirquelover (Post 248072)
I thought it was kind of cool. Also not anything I ever expeted to see Ron Howard do again but I enjoyed it. Thanks for the link!

awesome!

Gemini Cricket 10-23-2008 08:50 PM

I went to my local Democratic office tonight to get a Obama t-shirt and a 'No on 8' bumper sticker for my car. The place was packed. It made me happy.
:)

BarTopDancer 10-23-2008 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 248221)
I went to my local Democratic office tonight to get a Obama t-shirt and a 'No on 8' bumper sticker for my car. The place was packed. It made me happy.
:)

Great idea! I'm going to stop by mine tomorrow!

Ghoulish Delight 10-23-2008 10:51 PM

You know, Ron Howard's been holding that in for 40 years. Never has he played that card. But today, he felt strongly enough to pull it out.

"Vote for Obama. Freaking Opie says so!"

scaeagles 10-24-2008 04:54 AM

Released today - John McClain, The Terminator, and Frasier Crane all come out in support of McCain.

McClain says that terrorist attacks are a serious threat and McCain is best suited to handle it.

The Terminator said "Zohshuleezm'll bee bahck" if you vote for Obama.

Crane said anyone voting for Obama needs deep psychological help and they should call his show immediately.

JWBear 10-24-2008 09:05 AM

Oooookaaaay....

Morrigoon 10-24-2008 09:30 AM

I'm confused and amused

scaeagles 10-24-2008 10:12 AM

It's in reference to three Hollywood republicans and major roles -

Bruce Willis as John McClain in the Die Hard movies.
Arnold as the Terminator.
Kelsey Grammar from as Dr. Frasier Crane in the TV show Frasier.

Thought it was appropriate based on the Opie endorsement for Obama.

Betty 10-24-2008 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles (Post 248240)
Released today - John McClain, The Terminator, and Frasier Crane all come out in support of McCain.

McClain says that terrorist attacks are a serious threat and McCain is best suited to handle it.

The Terminator said "Zohshuleezm'll bee bahck" if you vote for Obama.

Crane said anyone voting for Obama needs deep psychological help and they should call his show immediately.


It's okay Scaeagles - just a another week and a half and it'll all be over.

Morrigoon 10-24-2008 10:49 AM

Thank god for that

LSPoorEeyorick 10-24-2008 11:00 AM

I post here because it mocks the other candidate. I never know where to post anymore!

In a desperate move, McCain hires famous directors for his TV spots.

Make sure you hang on for the Wes Anderson one at the end.

Gemini Cricket 10-24-2008 11:36 AM

Every time I see the Obama logo, I kinda want to drink a Pepsi.

Gemini Cricket 10-24-2008 01:21 PM

Quote:

Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds at
Virginia Commonwealth University


Last Chance for Change

A very special acoustic evening with Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds ALLTEL Pavilion at the Stuart C. Siegel Center
Virginia Commonwealth University
Richmond, VA
Sunday, October 26, 2008
Media access: 5:30 p.m.
Doors open: 6:00 p.m.
Show starts: 7:00 p.m.

Source
Would I love to be there? Uh, yeah!
:)

scaeagles 10-24-2008 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket (Post 248327)
Every time I see the Obama logo, I kinda want to drink a Pepsi.

Proving he's in the back pocket of a big corporation.

Alex 10-24-2008 01:53 PM

I do believe that to be inaccurate. If nothing else the civil rights movement has won him the right to be in the front pocket of big business. No more back pockets for today's African American achievers.

Gemini Cricket 10-24-2008 02:00 PM

No one's in my back pocket. And that's my own damn fault.

scaeagles 10-24-2008 02:23 PM

So I am a coroporate lackey racist. You've opened my eyes, Alex. Thank you.

JWBear 10-24-2008 02:53 PM

Unlike McCain and Bush, who are so far up Big Business's ass it walks funny.

Alex 10-24-2008 03:36 PM

You are most certainly welcome!

Cadaverous Pallor 10-24-2008 09:10 PM

Cross-posted with YouTubery.

Wasssap 2008


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