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Sorry, I was amusing myself with the La Pine reference on the assumption nobody would know the place (my stepfather's mother had a bumper sticker on her car that said "Where in the hell is La Pine?").
I'm sure that the area tilts McCain (though I was amazed last time I drove through there just how much it has built out in the last decade. |
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In all the discussion about Republican racism, I was very (not sarcastically - I really am) suprised by this poll from Stanford and AP.
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Perhaps I live in some sort of sheltered bubble of good people....I know maybe 3 genuine racists (all republicans, btw). I was really shocked by this. |
This survey seems mighty strange to me. I'd like to see exactly how it was worded and scored. Also, do these white democrats who apparently think black people are lazy or violent feel the same way about Barack? Really? Was the survey really that general? I'm appalled by it, but suspicious enough that I don't plan to put any store by it.
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FiveThirtyEight.com raises some concerns about the article. Not so much a refutation as simple concerns (the polling methodology apparently hasn't been released).
Also, since the cell phone issue has come up several times recently in relation to polling, that site also has an article today looking at the differences between polling organizations that do poll cell phones and those that don't. |
I hate to say I'm not surprised by the poll, but I would suspect that many Dems who won't vote for Obama based on his race are probably part of the group we used to call the Reagan Democrats: generally blue collar workers (from the NE industrial states) who are socially conservative.
I'm not indicting all social conservatives, but they are a great deal more likely to be racist than people who are either liberal, or middle of the road regarding social issues. |
So, surprise surprise, many of Obama's top donors are the very investment banks he supports bailing out this week with a $700 billion blank check from the taxpayers.
You youngin's who support Mr. Obama with your impressionable hearts and souls are perhaps too young to remember the similar campaign of Bill Clinton during the less drastic economic crisis of 1992 ... and how between the time of being elected and being inaugurated, closed door meetings with famed economist Robert Rubin caused, according to Rubin, a complete conversion in Mr. Clinton. This is bourne out by how he governed as president, gutting welfare and repealing the 1934 Glass Steigal act which was the post-depression firewall between risky investment banks (that have now tanked) and consumer banks holding the life savings of ordinary citizens ... which essentially prevented risky investments such as the ones which have again decimated the financial sector from affecting consumer savings. Clinton repealed that act, under vast pressure from his masters, the investment banks and Wall Street. Who's to say these large donors are not Obama's masters as well? Where will the countervailing pressure come from to hold Obama's feet to the populist fire he preaches so freely with his mouth? Democrats in Congress want some minor conditions on the $700 billion blank check, such as caps on CEO compensation and protection for millions of homeowners facing foreclosure. But the Bush Administration (surprise surprise) wants a simple blank check and unlimited powers given to the Treasury Secretary to bail out failing banks by buying the bad mortgage debt packages with taxpayer funds as he sees fit, i.e., as banks demand. Banks are already salivating and urging Treasury to purchase other bad debts beyond the mortgage packages with our money. Meanwhile, reputable economists have predicted this disaster for years. So this is not some unforseen disaster to Congress and the Administration like a hurricane or nuclear attack. These are their policies coming home to roost ... and suddenly we have the most activist goverment since the New Deal with powers and funds government long insisted it didn't have. Where were these powers and moneys when it came to reforming health care, saving social security, restoring our national infrastructure?? All the young Obama supporters are too young to remember when government actually did anything, when government made things instead of unmaking them. In their entire lifetimes, all they've seen is cutbacks and can't do's. Oh-ho, suddenly there's plenty of money, and plenty of willpower to take radical and meddling action in altering the free-market economy trumped uber alis by our government for decades. Meanwhile, in the midst of the looming and unfolding crisis, the two presidential campaigns have become nearly meaningless. And sure, Obama looks to be the better candidate on the economy than McCain by a long shot. But he's almost as dangerous. It already looks like he's under the thumb of his Wall Street donors, and what kind of president will good-mouthed Obama really be? Ah memories of Clinton's promise ... and ultimate failings. Why the Republicans didn't just love him as president, I will never know. He governed precisely as a big-business Republican would have. Meanwhile, FDR's New Deal after the depression was not a cake-walk for that administration. It was a series of radical and progressive acts, opposed by Wall Street at every turn. And the results were actually compromises Wall Street accepted ... because, at the time, the alternative was actual revolution in the streets. That kind of serious, radical, prevalent grass-roots pressure from below is what it will again take for the next president to feel a countermanding pressure from Main Street below to match the intense pressure from Wall Street above. I don't think the American people are up for it. See you in the bread lines. |
This is an easy to understand piece on why this financial crisis is largely the democrats failure, not the republicans. It also points out that McCain was one of three cosponsors on a bill that would most likely have averted this should it have passed.
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No wonder Pelosi has been loudly proclaiming the dems have no fault in this. It appears to be largely their fault, and McCain was one who tried to pass legicaltion to reign in this problem three years ago. |
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Three years ago when the Republicans controlled the White House and Congress??? I'm confused, and won't be examing any of this material until someone can explain to me how the Republicans are not responsible for anything that passed while they completely controlled Congress.
Believe me, I'm not holding the Democrats harmless in this. But certainly Mr. Keating Five Scandal, aka McCain, has been no less in the pockets of Wall Street Banks than the rest of his collaborators on both sides of the aisle. |
True. However, it does remain a fact that he did cosponsor legislation to reign in Freddie and Fannie. The extrapolation of the impact of those two on the rest of the market and industry would certainly be up for debate.
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Completely agreed. |
Ok, but maybe we should take this to another thread, or start a Great Depression Two thread.
I hold Obama responsible for the pressure of his donors on his eventual presidency, if there is one. If we want to talk about the responsiblity of McCain vs. general Democrats, or general Republicans vs. general Democrats, I propose that it doesn't belong in the Obama thread. Maybe a General You thread is in order. ;) |
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Not at all...
And ISM, as I understand it, the house passed their version of the bill in question by a large majority (330-120 or something like that). The Senate bill was never able to come to vote due to a dem filibuster. |
Maybe I'm just obtuse this morning, scaeagles. But you say the Republican-controlled House of Representatives passed the measure by a large majority, and then the Republican-controlled Senate was stopped from making it a law by a Democratic fillibuster, but you blame the eventual law on the Democrats?
Or are you talking about the McCain co-sponsored alternate bill? What are you saying, man? And does what you're saying have anything to do with Barack Obama??? |
Scaegles, do you have a link that shows it was filibustered? I've been looking around and have been unable to find any evidence that it was. The article you posted never said it was. According to the Senate website the last action on the bill was "Jul 28, 2005: Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. Ordered to be reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute favorably," which seems to indicate that it never left committee. The Republicans should have at least been able to get it out of committee on a party line vote, even if it didn't come before the full senate later.
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Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a combination of dems and republicans stopped it from coming out of committee. To me, the main point was that McCain at least seemed to see that this was coming, but this is the Obama thread, not the McCain thread, as ISM pointed out, so the subject matter doesn't fit here. |
We shouldn't be so cocky that CA is going to go to Obama.
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I'm going to continue being cocky about that.
Unless he takes the opportunity at one of the debates to climb up on McCain's lectern and fart audibly in McCain's face while waiving the national flag of Iran, Obama will win California (and probably would still win). I wouldn't worry about that "big funding for activity in the state" and "solid internal polling numbers." That is just campaignese for "Please, please, don't give up!" |
Alex, bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa
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If Democratic voters and voters leaning towards Obama decide to not vote because "Obama is just going to win anyways" it can be lost.
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That is true, though it was true of the last four elections as well and didn't in any way put the Democratic candidate at risk of losing the state (which has been a 10 point win or more each time).
But yes, everybody should vote regardless of how certain the result seems. I just don't see any real risk of the result (for president) changing. California is willing to consider Republicans at the state level, they just don't seem willing to do so at the national level. North Carolina is similar in reverse. |
And I'm still not voting for him. It would have to get awfully more close in the polls for me to change my mind.
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Absolutely, I was very careful in phrasing that so it didn't say who to vote for, just to vote.
(And president is really the only position where I hold the view that everyone should vote regardless. For everything else I think most people should refuse to vote on grounds of ignorance.) |
Senator Biden on the recent stock market selloff:
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Wow, just wow.........and some of you guys want this mental giant as your next VP;) |
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Television
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Wasn't Hoover President when the market crashed?
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Yes. And FDR was governor of New York and already had presidential ambitions.
But I don't know how much of a public figure he was on the issue in 1929. There is much potentially wrong in Biden's statement (though not so much in the sentiment attributed to FDR) but I think TV was the main laughing point. Of course, the obvious response from McCain is to make a joke of it if he is secure enough in the age issue. Some version of I knew FDR and you're no FDR. |
Yes, Biden messed up. Roosevelt solved the Great Depression, he did was not president when it started. And of course his famous "Nothing to fear but fear itself" address was on radio.
Let's retire Joe, and elect his son Bow as king, er, president, er vice-president. |
FDR didn't solve the Great Depression, WWII did. But FDR did make people feel like government was trying.
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Damn - was about to post the same WWII thing and got beat to it.
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Ohhh, television. I didn't catch that. Thanks.
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The great crash took place in Oct of 1929
Herbert Hoover was President from March 4, 1929 to March 4, 1933 In 1925 Dr. Ernst Alexanderson broadcasts in Schenectady, NY area to an estimated 300 receivers. However, FDR is credited with being the first President to appear on Television. He spoke at the opening session of the New York World's Fair on April 30, 1939. The first regular scheduled TV broadcast in the US was also in 1939. Yes. My name is moonliner and I am a Googleholic. |
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Uh-Oh, Obama's doomed for sure now! ;)
Clinton says Democrats should win this year Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080923/.../clinton_obama |
I might have to change my mind and vote for Obama after all......with Biden around to poke fun at, the next 4 years could be a delight;)
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Don't worry, so long as Billy isn't actively campaigning for him he should be alright:D |
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Funny....no one has suggested a war with Russia, Obama is critical of us not doing enough militarily in Pakistan (yes, I'm aware of the recent story of US special forces incursions into Pakistan) even suggesting the possibility of using nukes....but I wouldn't doubt something could be up with Iran. However, I suppose Israel is going to be behind most of that.
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Mousepod, I'm aware of the interview. I find no problem with it, really. Who will stand up to them if they are renewing their imperialist ways? Hypotheticals are fine and dandy, but of course if Georgia or the Ukraine was part of NATO we would have no choice but respond.
Palin didn't suggest war with Russia. Gibson did. The last highlighted portion said other things would be tried first. These are the same arguments that were ongoing during the cold war. Should she say that the US has no desire to assist or interest in the continuation of free former Soviet states? Honestly, I don't know what the problem is with what she said. She didn't suggest it. Gibson did. She asserted that any ally deserves to be protected. And she's right. |
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Personally, I think all of the candidates brains get a little fried after weeks of talking literally non-stop. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to McCain that he knows that Czechoslovakia no longer exists and to Obama who certainly knows that there are 50 states. |
Sorry. Of course I know Biden knows that Hoover was President. I meant the ridicule....it wasn't about TV vs radio, as has been alluded to in the thread. It was about who was President.
If Palin said it, her knwledge would most certainly be questioned. I don't question Biden's at all. Not here, perhaps, but certainly in the media. |
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Also - Of course "she would be ridiculed", doesn't mean that I'd do the ridiculing. There have been lots of these gaffes from both sides and focusing on them shows just how much we love petty drama. I can practically hear the Married With Children audience laugh track. "Ooooooooooohhh!" Disclaimer - I'm sure I focused on gaffes in the past, but I've totally changed my stance on them. I'm done fcuking around with slip-ups and mistakes, pointing them out only when certain people do them, and pretending they don't matter when other people do them. I could list a few moments of McCain and Palin caught in mis-speech that don't bother me to prove my point but that would mean mentioning them, and I won't do it. None of them really bother me any more. Further disclaimer - "gaffe" means whatever we want it to mean, doesn't it? I'm sure I'll point at something and someone else will say it was just a gaffe, while I disagree. Such is life. |
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So Palin is saying that diplomacy and sanctions should be tried first before going to war?! Isn't the Republican position just the opposite? Didn't they, in complete lockstep, ridicule Democrats who suggested the exact same thing in?! |
Ummm....no.
There is a difference between negotiating with sponsors of terrorism who violate the nuclear non proliferation treaty and with the Russians. It's like when we negotiated with North Korea recently or Saddam after Gulf War I or any other number of negotiations. Sanctions have never been ridiculed against Iran. In fact, they've been encouraged and pushed for, primarily with Russia standing in the way (largely due to arms sales). Just direct unconditional talks with leaders of terrorist states has been ridiculed. |
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Suppose it's matter of opinion that we'll never agree upon.
At least you must agree that sanctions have been there in dealing with any adversary and promoted by the republicans, right? |
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Why the word "unfortunately"? Why not "sorry" or simply leave out that part of the sentence all together and just say "Only US Citizens..."? To me the word "unfortunately" implies that they regret that only US citizens are allowed to vote in a US election......as if maybe they wish every person on Earth(except US military personal, of course) should be allowed to vote in this most historic election:rolleyes: |
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Decided the check the McCain site just to make sure I wasn't going to get egg on my face; I am not. On the McCain site they say: Quote:
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Good catch, that doesn't sit well. I went through it and I don't think they were trying to push some sort of agenda, I think it was more of a, "Unfortunately you just wasted your time and we're trying to let you down easy." But not a good choice of phrasing considering the context. Those tech-pubs guys sometimes get stuck in their own heads.
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Jews, click here! (and everyone else too) NSFW due to language.
http://www.thegreatschlep.com/site/index.html |
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LMAO! "I'd rather have a president who's name means 'lightening' than one who's name means 'toilet'" :D |
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;) |
it's twu, it's twu!
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From Real Clear Politics blog (Time magazine):
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But honestly, I had completely written off Florida. This is STUNNING. Just to be SO CLOSE. Wow. |
Florida will be close. Actually, it's been looking for a while like it would be closer than more traditional battlegrounds like Ohio or Missouri.
And without Florida, it's really hard to imagine how McCain could win. |
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I like this photo. |
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He does. It's all that blackface. He's really white.
(He's half white, so I'm kinda bugged by this whole first black president thing. Half is half.) |
Well, to be fair it would kind of suck if after centuries of "one black great-grandparent and you can't sit at the front of the bus" (and equivalents) it were now turned around and said that he isn't black because only one of his parents is black.
But that's unimportant. The key to me is that he's going to be the first president to have lived entirely with a 50 state United States. That's a key aspect of his identity right there. |
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And by all means, do not look at this, whatever you do. |
I don't think this is close at all anymore. I think Obama has this in the bag, and honestly, the longer an economic package (if any) takes to pass and the American people are in a borderline economic panic state, the longer he will continue to increase his lead.
The rhetoric coming out of Pelosi's office, which is completely disingenuous, will continue to grab press attention and play to the American people. However, McCains position at present can in no way be completely balmed on the dems. He's looked weak recently and the dems are doing a great job blaming republicans in general. He needs to start campaigning or it is all over. |
I have no idea if it's at all valid, but I love www.fivethirtyeight.com . The guy claims he knows what's he's talking about. It'll make any Obama supporter feel better :)
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As a point, McCain made a huge issue about how he was going to postpone his campaign, made a huge deal about going to DC, and then this thing doesn't pass. He might go around blaming Pelosi and Obama, but it just makes him look bad. It's not really all his fault; Republicans in a close race that are running this year are voting against it. But it still makes him look petty. |
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I find it humorous that the cons are decrying Pelosi's partisan speech, while their own candidate took the situation for a very cynical ride (that backfired) last week. At the same time, I think Pelosi really didn't need to give the speech she did. I think the results would have been the same, but now the Repub's are blaming her instead of the real reason, which is they want to be re-elected and they know the public is very much against this bailout.
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As the great de-regulator, you would have been badly enough off with just the economic crisis of 2008 ... but you had to make a spectacle of running to Washington and dropping everything (except Katie Couric) to solve the economic crisis ... and the most leadership you have to show for it is only one-third of your party supporting your solution, compared to nearly two-thirds of the opposition. I think John McCain should pull the covers up over his head before he blunders this election any more. TeeHee, bless you, John. :D |
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I believe that Pelosi gave her divisive speech on the floor prior to the vote for the specific purpose of wanting republicans to vote against it. The more I think about it, the more I believe she (and dem politicians in general) want this to continue until the election. |
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Hold on....why, then were the republicans blamed when McCains bill in regard to reigning in Freddie and Fannie failed? Didn't get out of committee, but MOST of the republicans voted to get it out of committee and MOST of the dems voted to kill it. If the dems wanted it to pass, there is nothing the republicans could have done to stop it. Nothing. They even have a guaranteed signature from Bush. They don't want it to pass. |
Who blamed the Republicans for that? Was it Barack Obama???
It's seeming a little infantile of you to be changing the subject like that. There, I'll concede that politicians wrongly blame the other side of the aisle on a routine basis, all in craven partisan lyinghood. Now, can we address the subject of what a bonehead John McCain continues to be about the economic crisis, and how his every chosen move just digs him deeper into the hole of unelectability? Or would you like to discuss mitochondria? |
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Mitochondria is a cell's power station of sorts. It has two membranes. They can be round or elongated... |
Is that the celluar equivalent of cut or uncut? Or is this getting too esoteric?
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Mitochondria are what make Jedis.
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ISM, this was a recent subject regarding McCain's attempt in 2005 to get some reigns on Freddie and Fannie. It was pointed out to me that the republicans could have passed it at that point in time without one dem vote but it didn't even make it to the floor.
Only bringing it up in that context of who is really in control of this process. |
Apples (from the Riley Farm) and Oranges. A bill not making it out of committee has absolutely nothing to do with a situation where Republicans desperately seeking reelection won't go along with their party mandate when a bill is on the floor.
In fact, more Democrats would have voted for the bill had not so many Republicans voted against it. Midway through the voting, the word went out to the Dems from their leadership that they could vote their conscience, since Republicans were not supporting their party line. So the only thing Pelosi had to do with the result was perhaps that less Democrats voted for the bailout than would have otherwise. She had zero to do with Republicans voting two thirds against it. I fail to see the applicability of your comparison, and I call official shenanigans on you, Sir. |
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HA! A claim of shenanigans from someone using how the republicans voted to justify the dems not passing it? THAT'S funny. That's Kerry-esque. I see your shenanigans and raise you two more, sir! |
You can't change facts, that's how it went. There's no way of knowing how the Democratic vote tally might have differed, but they were released from their obligations to adhere to the party line as the (I believe four hour long) vote progressed.
I'm not justifying anything. There's no blame from me for the failure to pass this miserable piece of legislation. The Republicans may have voted no for the most craven of reasons, but I applaud them for their lack of support. |
As representatives, they shouldn't be voting party line anyways. They should be voting the way their home state feels to the best of their ability. Public opinion was vastly opposed to the bailout, so kudos to all who voted against it for representing the public.
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They should be voting based on what they think will have the most favorable outcome for the country. The definition of "most favorable outcome" is hardly cut and dry. If they pass it and the economy still falters and the Democrats get voted out for passing a "bad" bailout (nevermind whether any further failures are the fault of the bailout or not) that they voted for but the republicans didn't, is that the "most favorable outcome?" from a Democrat's perspective? Not even in terms of the personal unfavorableness of losing one's job, but from the perspective of, "We got voted out for doing what we thought was right against public opinion, and now everything else we stand for is going to fall by the wayside because of that one issue." That's just for starters. Such is politics. No vote is done in a vacuum. No vote is safe from being used to screw you in the future. It must really suck to deal with. Even if you're 100% sure of which vote is the "right" vote on a particular issue, you STILL have to stop and think and decide if doing the "right" thing on that single point will prevent you from being able to do the "right" thing on a larger scale down the line. |
The House of Representatives was never intended to be filled with career politicians for just this reason (the Senate is different, of course). The view of what is the most favorable outcome for the nation is typically trumped by the desire to be reelected.
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Even if a representative themself isn't looking at their own reelection, they still want to pave the way for someone who agrees with them to take their place. Politics will always be an inextricable part of the decision making process.
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The problem with government spending a lot of money to successfully prevent (or reduce a problem) is that if they are successful, they're screwed because so many people will believe that the prevention was unnecessary since nothing bad happened. If they fail they are screwed since obviously it didn't prevent anything even if it was the only thing that even had a chance of doing so. If they do nothing and it happens, they are screwed since they should have done whatever was necessary to prevent it. If they do nothing and nothing happens then they got away with it.
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I agree to an extent. However, their votes would then be more often be in line with what they think is best rather than what they think is politically expedient.
Agreed, Alex. And it is very easy to present any spin as a political opponent. |
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And yeah, you're right Alex, damned if you do, damned if you don't. They've kinda put themselves in this position, though, by going through the charade of publically reaming Paulson and company, only to turn around and say, "We've almost come to an agreement!" And then, by ditching that agreement, coming to another one, and voting THAT one down, it's painfully obvious that they've stopped making decisions based on what's best to do but they're just riding the wave of public opinion. |
If they are truly representing "us", shouldn't they be loyal to public opinion? or is it too little too late for them to start that now since it never really mattered before?
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Public opinion is fickle and uninformed.
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If this "crisis" had arisen 12 months ago or six weeks from now, the behavior in the House of Representatives would be dramatically different knowing that there would be a period of time for the voters to either come to terms with it, to forget about it, or for it to work in a way that they can stand tall for having done it. As far as blame for yesterday's embarrassment goes, I put it squarely on whoever is heading the Republican caucus (and whips) on this issue. Among the nays were both people acting simply for political reasons and people acting out of ideological principles. But the bill should never have come to vote until both caucuses were sufficiently confident of passage. Either the Republican caucus failed to accurately count votes or they were unable to hold their internal agreements. |
GD's avatar makes all his posts sound stupid to me. :D
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You know, so many like to give Palin never ending grief when she stumbles a little facing reporters asking gotcha questions;
Yet, for some reason, Obama can stumble a little on his own(sans reporters) and that's ok? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omHUsRTYFAU Todays vocabulary word is Teleprompterless :) |
At least he had actual thoughts to lose.
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Stumble a little?!? Dude, she fricking tumbled down a mountain!
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Seriously, sleepyjeff, do you really want to start down the road of, "Does Obama have a worse grasp of the issues than Palin?" Seriously?
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Palin stumbled going up against a couple of world class journalists who were setting her up with gotcha questions.....Obama tripped over his own tongue. Palin looks like an idiot doing an interview with someone tyring to make her look like an idiot(imagine that) Obama, even when confronted with a very friendly interviewer says things like "my Muslim Faith" and gets a pass on it(I am not saying he shouldn't get a pass on that but if he, someone who has been campainging for the #1 job for two or so years gets a pass shouldn't someone who has only been campaiging for a few weeks and the #2 job also get the same sort of pass?). |
Michelle Obama posted some thoughts on MOMocrats. I love her.
:) |
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I expect interviewers to be tough on candidates running for office. When it comes to someone running for office, Couric asked very simple questions, Gibson asked very simple questions... Palin didn't have any answers for them. "I'll get back to ya" is not a good response. O'Reilly grilled Obama and he handled it very well. Palin didn't "stumble". She fell on her face. Palin was widely panned by liberals and conservatives alike. I don't buy it that journalists are deliberately trying to Swift Boat Palin. That's a copout. She f'ed up big time. While we're at it, "Stumble" rubs me the same way "peppered" did. Give me a freakin' break. When someone is coherent and on the money about something most of the time and trips up a few times, they get a buy in my book. When someone keeps tripping up over and over, I raise my eyebrows and say 'something's not right here'. |
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Hope and change mean nothing. They are a campaign slogan. They are most certainly used to put things in a tidy little box.
Gibson was most certainly attempting to do "gotcha", and in fact made himself look like an idiot. The question about the "Bush doctrine" that he was so visibly disgusted that she didn't know what he was talking about, when in fact there have been 4 distinct Bush doctrines, and the one Gibson expanded upon isn't even regarded as the current one. I can post a link to a couple of write ups about it (Krauthammer did a good one) if anyone really is interested. Couric asked Palin about a depression. Her words. Then she later jumped on palin for using the word depression about the economy (disclaimer - I did not actually see the Couric interview. This is what I read, and I do not recall who wrote it up. It is entirely possible that I am wrong about this one and apologize if I am. I don't have time nor the desire to watch Couric). Palin certainly stumbles. No doubt. But she most definitely gets help doing it from some rather hostile members of the media. |
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If you are addressing me, that was not a gotcha in the least.
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I highly recommend you want the SNL opening from last week to get a grasp of that interview. Much more entertaining then the actual interview.
Palin talks circles around the issue like a bad salesperson. It's sad that she can barely handle herself in an interview with the US media. How is she going to handle foreign press and leaders? She'll be eaten alive. |
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I've been hearing a lot about how much time these candidates spend talking to people. That they do these townhall meetings, and outdoor speeches, then shake hands with spectators, visit local businesses and schools, and then do interviews on the bus, and another on the plane, and call in to radio shows, and sit down with news anchors..... I heard on NPR this morning that Palin is mostly relegated to introducing McCain on stage, and has stuck to the same speech she gave at the convention, minus the "thanks but no thanks" and "sold the plane on ebay" which were both false. They said she doesn't do any townhall meetings, any lunches with the public or other appearances. The report made it sound like this isn't what a VP nom should be doing. I found a blog about Biden, and it does seem he's not tethered to Obama at all. I tried to find a blog about Palin's activities and found this. Heh, kinda funny. But I didn't find anything else. In any case, if Palin doesn't answer questions from the public and is only trotted out as MC for McC, while Obama does townhalls and shaking hands in restaurants and all the rest, then it's guaranteed that he's going to have more gaffes and blind spots. In addition, it's not like Palin blew just one question of the Couric interview. She blew a good 75% of it (and I think that's generous). She was a deer in headlights. As Tom says - these were valid, sensible questions. She looked like a moron. |
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I can't believe I'm reading this. I don't know if it was 3894 in this thread or another, but the study about conservatives who simply dig in when presented with evidence contrary to their wishful worldview has apparently come home to roost among the couple of conservatives we have here, whom I have otherwise come to respect for some modicum of intelligence and integrity.
Please, sleepy and scaeagles, give it up on defendaing Sarah Palin. I can't believe everyone else here is wasting their time and fingertips explaining to you how the sun rises in the east, but also am appreciative of the massive solar rising evidence gathered here in one easy place. I'm not going to waste any more of my particular fingertips on this subject. If we want to talk about how hot it is at noon, which IS debatable, then fine. But Palin sucking at interviews and the sun rising in the east are two absolutes I will no longer bother with ... and with all due respect I suggest the rest of you stop trying to convince these two ultra-stubborn individuals otherwise. Check the study that 3894 linked to. There's just no point arguing, er, talking to such people. I'm ashamed of both of you. You can do better than this. scaeagles, if you change the subject one more time to try and deflect some criticism you're not happy with, I'm going to put you on Ignore till the election is over. Jeebus. sleepyjeff, you on the other hand, have drunk far too much kool-aid, and your statements are so absurd that I don't have to bother ignoring them. They are almost gibberish of a foreign language. Sorry to get too personal. But this is your guys' lowest hour. |
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Not seeing it nullifies your take on the interview. That was like me arguing about The Passion of the Christ without even seeing it. I said, how can I have an opinion without doing the homework? So I saw it and then continued my rant... ;) |
On another note, I had a wonderful conversation with Mum about politics tonight. It didn't get heated and we both were very cordial to each other. She worries about Palin's readiness to lead and is concerned about McCain's temper. She wants to like Obama, but she thinks he's not as smart as JFK. She also thinks that Michelle Obama is going to be another Hillary Clinton and be a puppeteer.
I asked her if she believed the silly rumor about Obama being a Muslim. And she said at first she did but is questioning it because there is no proof. I told her that he says he's a Christian. She wanted to know how long he was a Christian. I said it didn't matter, born again Christians are brand new and embraced by other Christians, so even if he was a 'new Christian' it shouldn't matter... Christian is Christian... The most important part was that she was actually listening to my take on Obama. It was refreshing. She honestly is considering protest voting. Leaving it blank. Which was interesting to hear. She is a die hard Republican (although she voted for Carter twice and loves loves loves JFK). Oh, and she thought it was rude that McCain didn't look at Obama during the debate. She said she kept yelling at the TV for him to do just that. |
Hey ISM - I don't know how I changed the subject. Seriously.
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but, ...it's been pointed out that I am incapable of conceding a point and must dig my heels in, drink kool aid, write gibberish, etc. What to do, what to do? |
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Obama is starting to move into landslide territory. Realclearpolitics shows him up by 158 electorals.
(psst....ISM....I suppose you may consider this a change in the subject, but since it is something that says Obama is doing well, I'm hoping you'll excuse it.) |
Isn't this thing over yet ???
...Geez, you USA'uns know how to spin out elections, don't ya ?? :p |
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I certainly agree, Strangler. She isn't coming off as even a little bright. I would figure (hope?) she's smarter than she is interviewing.
My point wasn't that she would have been able to answer if it were more clear, it was Gibson's arrogance. To be sure everyone understands what I'm saying, every politician needs to be able to deal with a hostile media, because even those that are loved one moment will be hated the next. Gotta be ready for it. She is not doing well. However, she's at a stage right now where I think the media ingeneral wants her to fail, and she isn't handling any of it well. Her fault. Her fault. Her fault. I write that three times so no one accuses me of trying to be a kool aid drinking synchophant (sp?). Once again, her fault. |
Sorry, Leo, but if you haven't seen the Couric interview, I'd say you have no room to speak about Palin anymore at all. It's not something you can absorb from elsewhere, you must see it to believe it. It's an undeniably awful, embarrassing, incredible moment in American politics.
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Fair enough. This is why I gave a very lengthy disclaimer, though, and only offered one thing I had read, which was very specific rather than anything about her overall performance.
I am planning on watching the debate Friday. After I watch that am I free to comment on her again? |
I thought the debate was Thursday... ?
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HA! Contrary to what will probably be believed here, that was not an intentional attempt to deceive so you would all miss it.
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Latest polls for today
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This is the first I've seen of everything being +Obama across the board.
Attachment 730 http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/ Of course, polls don't mean sh!t, but I find it encouraging and they are fun to look at. I'm going to be very curious post-VP debate (providing Joe does not put his foot in his mouth) is there will be an even larger point spread. |
I think they reflect some nervousness on the part of undecideds on Palin and her shakiness. I don't think it depends on Biden at all....If Palin has a good show, McCain/Palin gets a boost. If she continues on her current path, it could be over.
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There are also some Quinnipiac state polls out today that have Obama up 8 in Ohio, 8 in Florida, and 15 in Pennsylvania. Those are bigger margins than other polls of those states have shown recently, but if they're even close then Obama would really be pulling away.
McCain needs to turn this around fast if he's going to have any chance. I would guess that we will be hearing about reverend Wright in the not-too-far-off future. |
Um, too late for that. If you live in a swing state, you are already getting anonymous faxes and computerized telephone calls with misleading info about Reverand Wright and every other faux Obamination.
I thank the gods we live in California where campaigns and the underbelly of unaccountable supporters don't bother. Oh, and those unaccountable supporters have, of course, found loopholes in the law that allow them to escape the financial disclosures of the last election cycle. They are now completely unaccountable - and thus more disgusting and despicable in their conduct than ever before. Kiss the ground in California, my friends. |
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The October surprise will be Palin announcing she is dropping out to spend more time with her family. McCain replaces her with someone like Mitt Romney. This reignites the McCain base and gives him the oomph to win the election. It's Rove-ian. I wouldn't put it past them... |
I've thought the same thing, but with Huckabee, not Romney storming out of the dressing room like Hulk Hogan to energize the base.
I comfort myself with the thought that they both want to run in 2012, and they won't think that being the VP on a losing ticket will be a big resume booster. |
That's been a rumor with Hillary replacing Biden as well.
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Whether Palin drops out may really depend on how she does in the debates tomorrow. If she does relatively OK (which I predict she will), she will be bolstered enough to stay. If she is as bad as she was with Katie Couric, then I think their numbers will drop even further and it will be really embarrassing. The thing is, Palin galvanized the Republican core, strengthened the female conservative vote. If you replace Palin with either Romney or Huckabee, McCain will alienate that very core, and it will be total chaos. I don't know that he will be able to recover. I really blame McCain in all this. It reminds me a lot of Team Hillary in the last months leading up to the last primary elections... she got thrown a curve ball after the February primaries and she never fully recovered, and she wound up with very little game plan except to mostly lob overripe tomatoes at Obama. McCain seems to be changing and morphine every day. It's hard to keep up, and this is coming from someone who reads (or at least skims the headlines) multiple times a day. I mean, he made a HUGE deal about postponing the campaign to go and be the hero and get the bailout bill passed. He threatened to not attend the debate. Obama didn't bite. McCain finally gives in and shows up, and then McCain goes "back to Washington" but he's actually caught out of town when the vote finally came down... and it didn't pass. And then his team had the temerity to blame "Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and the other Democrats" for the failure of the bill, when in fact it was his own inability to rein in his own party members. There are a lot of TRUE conservative Republicans in Congress and neither Bush nor McCain has their support. Forget "bipartisan," McCain is simply disliked by most in Congress, it seems; and he sounds like the inept high school principal nobody listens to while everyone's busy having a food fight in the cafeteria. All of this makes him look b-a-d. Swapping Palin with a Huckabee or Romney is not going to help. He's quickly running out of footballs to toss for his Hail Marys. ...I wouldn't put it past him to pull ANY stunt at this point, but to me it just shows how they're completely devolving. |
Excellent points, Lani.
:) |
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;) |
Please don't accuse me of changing the subject. This is the Obama thread, this is sort of about Obama.
Is anyone else creeped out by the children singing about Obama? Seen the Youtube ideo? I don't happen to have a link handy, but it's not hard ot find. |
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I see the last of the true conservatives. Need a crying smilie (oxymoron?). |
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Speaking frivolously of dead presidents, just as there have been simulated tournaments between the greatest heavyweights and the greatest baseball teams, has their ever been a tournament of mock elections to figure out who'd be elected the greatest president ever? Interesting idea. (Thank you, SL) Would it be done by ignoring party affiliation? If not, some might complain, Reagan would have to face Lincoln before the finals. Or would Lincoln be recharacterized as a Democrat? Carry on. |
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Leo, for the record, I'm not accusing you of changing the subject. I'm accusing you of constantly responding to a criticism with a different or similar criticism of another person. It's a poor tactic to say, well Joe Schmoe should be excused because so-and-so did something similar or worse.
That is (most times) completely besides the point. To say, But, waaa, the Democrats did bad thing "B" does not excuse the Republicans from doing bad thing "A." And responding that Joe Biden put his foot in his mouth is not a valid refutation of Sarah Palin putting her foot in her mouth. It's perfectly valid to bring up any of these things. But to constantly bring them up to deflect criticism you don't like of entirely other people or persons is really rather infantile. Please reconsider. |
Bully!
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Ew. I hope the Hillary-replaces-Biden thing stays merely rumor. Else I'll have to reconsider my vote.
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Sight unseen, I will concede the impropriety of using children as props in any political campaign, be it small-worldy-sounding songs for Obama or as sign-carrying "evidence" at anti-choice demonstrations.
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I agree that using kids as performers for political and/or religious advocacy is manipulative and awful. |
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There was a time when Drudge posted positive links about Obama. Now he routinely ignores controversial stories... Troopergate would otherwise be HUGE (I just have to read Mudflats instead). Quote:
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To be honest, I don't even know how I did that in relation to your post, unless you were referring to my comment on "hope" and "change", which was only made because GC mentioned those terms. |
No, no. I'm not talking about a specific post. I'm talking about a pattern developing over many posts, throughout many threads, over many days.
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Me??? Well, you should see what MBC's been doing! :)
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From Politico.com:
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^ HYSTERICAL! :D
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Gary was watching the Obama channel last night and it is actually more than a two minute loop. I caught a mini biography of him and also him explaining the new bailout. Although then they go to the loop in between other short stories.
I commented that he must have paid a fortune for that privelege and also asked if there was a McCain one too. There is not. |
God! I wish Jed Bartlett was running for President! He'd make short work of McCain and Palin. (And with his Nobel Prize in economics, he could easily solve the economic chrisis as well!)
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Thought I'd post some positive news. That's a lot of blue.
We'll see what the debate does, though reports are currently saying that it will do nothing. |
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I got some sh!t from a frat boy and friends in an Expedition in the Angels' parking lot last night for having an Obama sticker on my car.
"NObama!" He kept chanting as he drove next to me all the way out to Gene Autry Way. I just smiled and ignored his ass. I hope Obama wins. It'll wipe that smile off of that f*cker's self-righteous face. btw - I'm going to get an official Obama sticker for my car instead of the free MoveOn.org one I got in the mail... :) |
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Pfft, i also think it's going to be very hard to "change the subject" from American financial collapse in the next four weeks. |
Oh, I don't expect Obama to join, but his surrogates are free to.
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Bruce Springsteen in an acoustic concert in Philly on Saturday for a voter registration rally sponsored by the Obama campaign.
He took a few minutes out to talk to the audience (tens of thousands but I haven't seen an estimate) about why he's voting for Barack Obama: "I've spent 35 years writing about America and its people and the meaning of the American promise , a promise handed down right here in this city," said the New Jersey rocker, whose songs often depict down-on-their-luck, working-class dreamers. "Our everyday citizens ... have justifiably lost faith in its meaning." |
I am starting to hear rumors of an October surprise of massive proportions. the rumors are being fueled by Joe Biden canceling campaign appearances to deal with an illness in his family. The rumor is that Biden is about to step down with Hillary Clinton to replace him.
No matter how unlikely what would your opinion of such a move be? I think Obama would be making a mistake of seismic proportions. He's in the cat bird's seat. To use a sports analogy he is up by a field goal with two minutes left to go in the game, McCain has no time outs and Obama has the ball. If his VP is replaced that would be like carelessly passing the ball instead of running the clock out and winning the game. Such a move would have to be seen as one in unneeded desperation. |
That rumor has been circulated for quite a while and I put no credence to it whatsoever, particularly with sizable Obama lead.
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No way they'd do that. It's stupid.
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Was just watching "Huckabee" on Fox News and during the half-hour news break they mentioned that Joe Biden's mother-in-law has just passed away. :( My condolences go out to him and his family on their loss.
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I think it was earlier in this thread that we discussed polling flaws and whatnot. The poitn was made about the pollsters being pros at their jobs and doing the best to adjust for the difficulties of random sample polling.
I agree with that idea, and the difficulty is that while you know some polls will be wrong, it is difficult to know which ones. Anyway, an interesting case in point. Two surveys for Minnesota. Same polling period. Star Tribune has Obama up by 18 in that state. SurveyUSA has McCain up by 1. Anyway, found it interesting. |
As much as I would love Clinton on the ticket, I think it is far more likely that Palin would have some kind of "emergency."
That said, I think the chance of either VP choice bailing, with 1 month left, is nil to less than nil. |
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I don't think either poll seems to be accurate. I predict a 5 percent win for Obama in Minnesota. Still close but but as close as it was there during 2000 and 2004.
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At this point, Obama is where Bush was, from an electoral standpoint, against both Gore and Kerry. All he has to do is hold all the blue states, and win a small handful of toss-ups (all leaning his direction right now) and he has more than 270. McCain will have to hold all the red states, and either take a blue state or take every single toss-up state (all of which are leaning Obama). Not outside the realm of possibility, Kerry and Gore came vey close to pulling it off, but they didn't, the odds are long.
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I don't think I can hold my breath for a whole month more
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The October surprise is basically that McCain's advertising has been confirmed as going 100% NEGATIVE. They are basically throwing in the kitchen sink, which is what was happening with Camp Hillary in the last month of the primaries. Palin, as "the wolverine biting at the pant leg of passersby," she has revisited the relationship of Obama with Bill Ayers, starting with her stumping this weekend. She also started mentioning Jeremiah Wright. I'm sure it won't be long before she's also mentioning Rezko. If nothing else, I'm going to tip my hat to Hillary for vetting all this stuff out on Obama during the primaries. It means none of this is new news, which means it makes Palin just look like she's slinging monkey-poo. The thing is, Team Hillary was at least smart about the way they did it. Camp McCain, not so much. They were either so insecure or so gleeful that McCain finally gave the go-ahead, that THEY COULDN'T CONTAIN THIS INFORMATION. As the news media was going into the weekend, Republican operatives LEAKED THIS INFORMATION to the media (that McCain's campaign was going to start hitting Obama below the belt). This gave Obama a huge hand, because they immediately went to work on readjusting their plans for this week. They almost immediately posted a 30-second teaser about McCain's associations with Keating in the Keating 5 savings and loan scandal from the early 1990s. The Obama campaign released a 12-minute+ video on YouTube today that talked about McCain's association with Keating, and explaining how this is where McCain came from, and talking about McCain's history of wanting DEREGULATION (less government overnight) rather than MORE oversight, which is what McCain is currently trumpeting. I'm sure Obama won't go completely negative (you don't go negative when you're leading the polls) but there are pro-Obama people who will gladly remind you about Todd and Sarah Palin's associations with an extremist organization in Alaska that condones "domestic terrorism" and wants Alaska to secede from the United States (how patriotic is that?). There's also a pastor that McCain is associated with, who is just as radical and crazy as Jeremiah Wright... in fact it's one of the reasons McCain told his campaign staff relatively early on NOT to touch the Wright issue because he knew that would come home to roost on his nest. ... The numbers are amazing. I've been going to the barackobama.com site almost everyday now for a year, and you could see how little seeds kept getting planted. One of those little seeds happened earlier this spring, when, even though he hadn't won the primaries yet, he started reaching out to prep for the general election campaign by getting a very very very large and extensive grassroots volunteer force set up in all 50 states. There was a huge drive to get volunteers. Because volunteers are way cheaper than paying for TV advertising, and they are far more effective... nothing as effective as your neighbor chatting with you about the economy and the future, and who to vote for. These little seedlings are sprouting all over the country. Even in states where it was assumed that there was no chance for a Democrat to win, they still worked the ground. What it did was force the McCain campaign to have to spread itself extraordinarily thin. A good example? Nebraska. Oh my god, let me tell you about Nebraska. Nebraska has not voted for a Democrat in like 6,000 years (back when man walked among the dinosaurs, as Gov. Palin would tell ya). But unlike a lot of other states, Nebraska does not use a winner-take-all system for the general. They've broken into three precincts. Two of them offer up two electoral votes, and the third offers up just a single one. But see, the Obama people have been working Nebraska hard. Because if they can even capture a couple of those electoral votes, that could make the difference in the event of a near-tie. Is Team McCain worried? You betcha! They aren't just putting TV ads in Nebraska. They're sending their big gun: Sarah Palin HERSELF is going to Nebraska to stump this week. For a state that has traditionally been a given for the Republicans, sending Ms. Rising Star herself? UNPRECEDENTED. A lot of different scenarios can happen for this election. In the worst case, it may be a tie (which Congress has to break). But I think all those seedlings the Obama campaign planted will come to bear fruit. It's quite possible we will even turn red states into blue. Just imagine. Nebraska. Georgia. Florida. VIRGINIA. |
Great post, Tenigma! Thanks or all the info and enthusiasm.
Unfortunately, though, you were a little off on the vote allocation in Nebraska. They give two electoral votes to the candidate who wins statewide, and one electoral apiece vote for the winner of each of the state's three congressional districts. There is a possibility that Obama could be competitive in the states second Congressional district, which includes Omaha. To back up your final point, I saw two(!) polls today that had Obama up by double digits in Virginia. |
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In my neighborhood when I lived in Warrenton, I was the sole blue dot in a sea of red! |
Speaking of Omaha, where's Warren Buffett stand on this election? Is he going for Obama? (if I recall he's actually a democrat, isn't he?)
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Warren Buffet has endorsed Obama.
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So, do we want Obama to win badly enough that we'd like the entire economy to tank? For millions of people to lose their jobs? For fiscal conditions that will completely cripple the next Administration no matter who wins?
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Because Buffett's wrong SO often where the economy is concerned.
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Who are you talking to? |
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From the Huffington Post:
30 Lies Refuted About Ayers and Obama |
How's this for an October surprise?
Taliban split with al Qaeda, seek peace
By Nic Robertson CNN Senior International Correspondent Quote:
Article Here If mods think of a better place for this, please move it. I was not sure where to put it. |
To answer GD's HUH and Scrooge's WHO .... it's the economic disaster that's putting this in the bag for Obama. There's 2 days less than a month to go. The economy is not going to stand still during that time. It's either going to get worse for the nation and thus better for Obama (which, yes, I believer would ultimately be better for the nation), or it's going to get better and dissolve Obama's distinct advantage.
And that's not directed to anyone in particular. Just a Sophie's choice presented to anyone to ponder. |
Oh, is that what you meant.
First of all, the economy is not going to magically heal itself in the next month no matter what. Even if the bleeding stops, it will take a long time for a full recovery. The odds of a sudden turn around and everyone saying, "OMG, McCain really DID go fix everything!" are nil. Second of all, even in the event of a more realistic turn around, where the bleeding stops and things level out, or even begin the slow climb back uphill, I would be beyond shocked if that were enough to turn things around for McCain. The damage has already been done, McCain has already shown that he's ill prepared to handle himself under economic pressure. From, "The economy is sound," to, "I'm suspending my campaign to do campaign interviews about suspending my campaign, to the Linda Blair routine("I'm proud to have made this bill pass." "This bill is crap, Bush needs to veto it!" "Obama phoned it in while I went there and made this bill happen." "Veto Veto Veto!!!"), no one is buying it. |
If the choice is:
A. Obama presidency and anything close to the worst case scenario being presented economically. B. McCain presidency and a healthy return to a 2004 economy. I would, without hesitation pick B. Now, I don't think that is at all the option we're facing, but if God came down and said "I'm existing for a few minutes for the sole purpose of putting this choice on your shoulders..." then that is how I'd go. |
Put that way, yes, I suppose I agree. I'm not sitting here rooting for utter economic meltdown so that Obama can win.
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Yeah, that's sorta what I meant. I was halfway cheering economic woes for people just so they'd see the light about McCain. I felt bad about it.
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I'm a little disappointed that the Obama camp is stooping to McCain's level:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27062761/ |
Personally, I'm thrilled.
Everyone complained when Kerry got his asz swiftboated into oblivion by being above the fray. Now that swiftboating is a freaking VERB ... I don't want even the likes of cool and collected Obama to just sit there and take it. If John McCain wants guilt-by-association ... he made a very, very, very bad choice. McCain's got some truly dicey associations, and I hope the Obama camp outs every one of them. BTW, I don't mind them saying, while they do so, that guilt by association is retarded ... but since McCain brought it up, here's some of the villains he's done business with over the years of his long maverickhood. |
[quote=Snowflake;244531]Taliban split with al Qaeda, seek peace
This has been disproved and denied. Sorry, CNN (and me) made a boo-boo |
Like I ever believed that for a second anyway. But why is this in the Obama thread? Are you saying he's a muslim terrorist?
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I just got a call from the Obama campaign looking for phone bank volunteers. They have an office in Mission Viejo (corner of Los Alisos and Trabuco) that's open from:
10a-9p weekdays 11a-9p weekends The phone number there is 949-584-5819. They have a calendar you can sign up on, but he said walk-in volunteers are welcome as well. You guys up for a little campaigning? |
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That's because Virginia is Communistland.;) |
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His base doesn't matter. He's already got that covered with Sarah Palin. Yes, that's been a very good weapon for him. His demoralized base which might have sat home WILL be coming out to vote for Palin.
But this election is all up to the four undecided white women who live in the middle of nowhere. I don't know how they feel about facism. |
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Is it ok if I picture Mr. Avatar whispering "pssst ... iSm" in my ear?
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Absolutely. ;)
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Or are they plain, Starbuck? |
Wait, I'm confused, which candidate is the one that's supposed to not be ready to lead on day 1?
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It looks like the idiots may cancel each other out. According to Gallup polling, while 6% say Obama's race makes them less likely to vote for him, 9% say it makes them more likely to. If you figure, as most people have been, that there's a chunk of folks who SAY that race doesn't matter, but really won't vote for him because of his race, and it seems like it'll be a wash.
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Yes, we can.
While I can't say I entirely support the premise and execution of the video, what surprises me is that the folks on the site found it so appalling as to not even require comment. |
It is being reported that Obama haas bought half-hour blocks of time on CBS and NBC, and is negotiating the same with Fox.
I remember it wasnt too long ago that people were wondering how it was that Obama's money advantage over McCain wasn't looking as big as expected. Well, it's playing pretty big. |
Wow, for the first time, all of the polls on Real Clear Politics' short list are showing Obama. Gallup still has him with an unrealistically high 11% lead. FiverThirtyEight has Obama at better than 90% chance to win.
Why doesn't any of this comfort me? |
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Thanks, really, but I have plans tonight...
This afternoon I went to pick my kids up from a play date set up for them by their dad. They were playing at a person's house I'd never met before, someone my ex knows. He dropped them off there, I picked them up.
The neighborhood is a in an old section, but very nice, and next to the oldest country club in town. When I got to the house I noticed a McCain lawn sign. When I got to the door, the lady of the house was on her cell phone, talking about the Women for McCain party she is hosting tonight. While I stood there waiting for my kids to put their shoes on and pick up the mess they helped make in this woman's living room, I heard her say a variety of disturbing things during her phone conversation. First, I heard her call Obama, "Osama". She was not being facetious, she sounded deadly serious. She said "Osama refuses to put his hand on the bible. It's because he is a Muslim, you know." She went on to say that George W. Bush is being nailed to a cross by the public. There is more, but it's just more of the same. If it hadn't been so horribly nauseating, it might have been sit com material. She sounded like Gladys Kravitz, in fact. She invited me to her party tonight. Yeah. I'm on my way out the door riiiiiiiiight this minute. |
Funny you should mention this. I was just on the phone with my Mom a few hours ago, and she went to a Women For McCain party (in Pennsylvania) a couple of days ago. She is a lifelong Republican, but she was very put off by the ridiculous and baseless barrage of Muslim rumors and fearmongering. When she went to leave, she was offered some signs to put in her yard, and she turned them down. Now, she is much less certain of how she wants to vote. (She is also no fan of Palin, and has been less than thrilled with the McCain of the last couple of weeks.)
I tried ever so gently to nudge her over to the Obama side, but she just sighed and said, "I don't know what I'm going to do." She then said she wishes she could vote for Bill Cosby. |
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If a 90% chance of victory isn't enough to make you feel better, I don't know what is. :) It's not so much Yes We Can as Yes We Are...
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:) |
Well you already voted. Does it seem more unnerving because now you just have to wait until everybody else does?
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I usually shrug off any campaign that emails me something to watch. Straight to the trash can... But I did watch this from the Obama camp and it made me admire him even more.
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Here is a great break down of why I do not trust Obama and his promised tax cuts. Much of what he calls a tax cut he only can because he redefines what a tax cut is.
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I will make another post that I am immensely concerned about the amount of voter registration fraud, particularly with the group ACORN.
Also, has anyone else seen the youtube video of the people marching through Manhattan carrying McCain/Palin signs? For the party of tolerance and acceptance, there sure were a whole lot of gestures and words that did not exude tolerance or acceptance of opposing view points. |
I agree that the rude gestures and booing are stupid and regrettable, and I wish all dems were classy people. But nobody gets to swing this charge with a clean conscience. (Which party was shouting "traitor" and "kill him" last week?) Partisan bickering is annoying, non productive, and brings out the petty in people. Just look at this thread!
I haven't done enough homework on ACORN, but at least in theory, it sounds like a group that needs to exist. Minorities and people in poor neighborhoods have historically been given extremely shabby treatment at the polls. I agree, there is no room in this or any election for voter fraud, and I don't think the dems would need to resort to that this year anyway. (stifling impulse to say "unlike the repubs back in 2000" - okay, technically not stifling it at all, but using comical parenthetical aside to toss an easy brickbat.) If you have any links to solid info on ACORN malfeasance, preferably from a non-partisan source, I'd read it over. If there really is widespread registering of dead peoples names and transporting of persons across state or county lines for voter fraud happening, it is obviously in the best interests of dems to put a stop to it. On the other hand, if there is only rumor and partisan desperation behind it, well, my eyes can't roll enough. Edited to add - And if your only purpose in bringing these matters up is to basically say "See, you democrats are hypocrites and bad people," then shame on you, and find another fricking hobby. (said affectionately - I'm a Leo fan.) |
Voter REGISTRATION fraud is not the same as voter fraud. Since money is paid for every registred name, there are AUTOMATICALLY going to be fraudulent acts commited by every party in every state in every country on every planet that pays for registered names.
But since these fictitious people do not show up to VOTE, no voter fraud is committed. In other words ... YAWN. |
Oh, and I don't trust Obama's or ANY candidate's promised tax cuts. Only a fool would believe such a thing after they've experienced more than 2 presidential elections in their lives ... and only an absolute IDIOT would believe there are going to be tax cuts when every single American household owes $480,000 in national debt to be paid, mostly to the Chinese, in the soon to be worthless dollar.
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Oh, and Leo... If you think I'm voting for Obama because of his tax plan, or that I really give a rats ass about it at this point, then you would be sadly mistaken.
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You know, when I change the subject when someone points out something about the republican party or McCain by pointing out something the dems do wrong, I am usually chastized for it. But no, flippy, I didn't bring those things up for that reason....I brought them up because they are concerning.
My point has nothing to do with what McCain is or isn't doing....my point is that Obama is deliberately misrepresenting and not telling the truth regarding his tax plan. I suppose if the Republicans redefined rich as anyone with a net worth over 10 billion they could say they have never supported tax cuts for the wealthy. I don't care if you support Obama or not whether all or in part due to his tax cuts. The fact is he is LIEING specifically to sway undecided voters. As tax policy is a big, big point for a large number of voters, it is no doubt intentional. I recall the Obama tax cut link to calculate the tax cut you'll get if Obama is elected....something tells me that a lot of people find it important, particularly with the hits Obama is giving McCain on the "tax cuts for the wealthy" and the responses to those here. Regarding voter fraud - the investigations are serious and ongoing into ACORN. I also believe that being regiestered to vote in more than one place is a crime. I could be mistaken, and if so, I apologize. |
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Voter fraud is one of the favorite tactics of dems....cheating, smearing, lieing....all democrat party strategies. |
Leo must have read the latest poll numbers.
:p (I know I commit voter fraud on a daily basis. I get up and the first thing I say to myself is "Wendy, have you committed your voter fraud today?" I have to remind myself to stay on task, because I'm so busy having abortions and sneaking terrorists across the border. Being a Dem is hard work!) |
Actually, the latest poll numbers are closing the gap. I doubt it will be enough, but they are narrowing.
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Vote fraud is a very serious issue, even more so with all these ****ing electronic voting systems. They raise the specter of a stolen election like nothing else in the history of our democracy. I'm fairly sure I don't want our election process to become one of who the best hackers support. Especially since BOTH parties have been clearly shown to have members not above stealing an election.
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The massive amounts of dirty tricks, lies, corruption, hypocrisy, and just plain nastiness on the part of the Republicans over the last eight years - vastly outnumbering the Democrats by orders of magnitude - have made me lose any trust or support for Republicans I ever had. I've voted for candidates from both parties equally in the past. No more. I've moved from a moderate to a staunch Democrat now. You can thank your party for that. |
But, JW, to be fair, the whining about recounts in the last election was pretty irritating for republicans. And there was plenty of talk about hanging chads becoming less hanging, IYKWIM.
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Who is the biggest manufacturer of electronic voting machines? Debolt. Which brand of voting machine seems to have the most instances of changing Democratic votes to Republican ones - in error, of course (wink, wink)? Debolt. Which party does Debolt contribute the most money to? The Republican Party. Hmmmmmm.... No, there couldn't be any relation there... |
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I'm so very sorry they were irritated. How inconsiderate of us for wanting a fair chance at the White House. |
A voter recount gave our governor the election. Now, her old opponent is claiming that "Seattle stole the election" and has pasted billboards all over Eastern Wa saying so. It's not having the effect he hoped for.
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I don't honestly believe that Gore won the last election. Maybe I should make that position clear. |
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HA! More arrogance from the world of "dems surely couldn't be corrupt!" thinkers.
Sheesh. I guess then, whenever I am told that I bring up something merely as a deflection, that all I have to do is say that the original point was false and I'm OK. So ISM, if you read this, please be advised I may adopt this philosophy. |
Nope, that may work for JWBear, but not for me. The Dems are crooked, too. I don't happen to believe they're as crooked as the Republicans, but that doesn't excuse them one bit in my book.
I'm not sure what allegations we're talking about anymore. But it appears to me that the allegations of ACORN committing registration fraud are true (several people have been indicted, if not yet convicted??), but the allegations of voter fraud are false ... or, at best, merely allegations without a shred of evidence. To which I repeat ... YAWN. There's a certain philosophy (which I don't condone) that crookedness in winning an election is vital, if it's imperative for the good of the nation / state / county /city that one's candidate be elected at all costs. Morrigoon's evocation of Gore reminds me that he gracefully stopped his efforts after the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, declining to take further steps to be elected at all costs. In retrospect of the past 8 years, the coup d'etat committed by the Republicans to install Bush as their puppet dictator was precisely the kind of thing one could almost legitimately use as the rationale to be elected instead at any costs for the good of the country and the world. And may I remind everyone that the U.S. Supreme Court ruling held there WAS a civil rights violation in Florida which denied thousands their right to vote. The Court gave the Gore campaign less than 24 hours to tally those votes, which was obviously impossible - and thus the Court was complicit in the coup d'etat. But, by that same Supreme Court ruling, it was indeed a coup d'etat. Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Floridians were denied their right to vote ... and the difference of counted votes between Gore and Bush was something like 357. Back to you, scaeagles. :) Yes, as we near the end of the disastrous Bush Presidency, I unashamedly dredge up the 2000 election and remind everyone that it started so appropriately to how it then proceeded for eight tragic years. |
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For the record, I have no illusions that Democrats have not committed voter fraud. However, it it plain that the shear volume of voter fraud committed by Republicans makes the Democratic efforts pale in comparison.
There was voter suppression in Florida in 2000. Because of it, Bush "won" the state, and therefore the election. This served to embolden the likes of Rove to greater feats in 2004. (Though I do believe that Bush won that election fair and square, despite the fraud.) There were some ACORN employees that are accused of fraud, but that was an isolated instance in just one office. They were terminated from ACORN for violating ACORN's rules. This, in no way. reflects on ACORN as a whole. The main complaint by Republicans seems to be that some of the voter registrations they have collected were illegitimate. ACORN doesn't fill them out, but merely collects them from the potential voters who do. ACORN (and any like organization) is required by law to turn all voter registrations it collects over to local election officials. They do not vet the registrations, and can hardly be blamed for the ones that are illegitimate. At my work, we are required by state law to give voter registration forms to everyone who applies. We are not allowed to tell anyone that they can not fill them out - even if they are non-citizens. We do not have the authority to determine if someone is eligible to vote; that power rests with the Registrar of Voters Office. We are also required by law to turn in any completed voter registrations our clients give us. By the very same reasoning used by those who attack ACORN, the County of Orange is guilty of voter fraud because some of those registrations are illegitimate. |
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(I have a very short attention span at work, keep getting interrupted mid-thought with, you know, work) |
As expected, Mom's thrown her vote in the mail for McCain. The reason being: his association with the ACORN fraud. Perhaps if she had voted on election day like a good American, this would have all died down. On the other hand, I'm sure there would have been some last minute smear that she would have glommed onto to avoid voting for Obama.
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JW: I'd stop short of a sweeping generalization about who has done more or less. Truth is none of us have any idea about potential voter fraud that hasn't been caught. So we really can't say that one party has committed more than the other.
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How interesting that I just posted yesterday how Obama is telling massive lies about his tax plan and the tax cuts for 95% of people, which is funny considering some 30% of people pay no federal income taxes at all. That ties in exactly with what Obama said to a man who starting a plumbing business either yesterday or a short time ago (I can post a link if anyone needs it).
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Considering tax policy and national defense are my two hot button issues, I may just end up voting for McCain rather than abstaining. |
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It's no secret that Obama is more popular among our allies than McCain. So it seems to me that despite McCain's image of being strong on defence, that Obama will be better able deliver security by working with our allies. |
Um, newsflash to scaeagles ... the tax structure of our nation has ALWAYS been a redistrubution of wealth, from the middle class to the rich. It's about time it went the other way.
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Fair question, Moonliner, and it has no simple or quick answer. I will when I have more time (as in not at work).
ISM, here's a news flash for you. For the tax year 2006.... Top 1% of wage earners (above $388,000) paid 39.89% of all federal income taxes. Top 5% of wage earners (aggregate with the 1%, above $153,000) paid 60.14% of all federal income taxes. The top 10% paid 70.79%, the top 25% paid 86.27%. The bottom 50% paid 2.99%. Being that this is the case, how can it be said that the top wage earners are not paying enough, or that the taxes from the middle class has been a redistribution of wealth from the middle to the rich? |
No, scaeagles, those wealthy people technically owed a certain percentage of income tax, but paid very little of that via all the methods available to the rich to avoid paying any taxes. Corporations pay no taxes. Rich folks pay very little taxes. They have numerous financial means, loopholes and methods to avoid paying their taxes and that's exactly what they do.
Where are you getting your statistics? What are they based on? |
They are from IRS data as posted on the National Tax Payers Union website.
This IS the data. That IS the percentage of federal income taxes paid by those groups. The top 1% DID pay almost 40% of all federal income taxes collected in 2006. Other years are listed as well, and interestingly, the percentage paid by the top has gone up since 2002 (it took a significant dive from 37+% to 34-% from 2000 to 2001, then has steadily creeped up again to the highest percentage ever). You may think they are not paying a high enough percentage of their income, which is a different debate. This ia about what percentage of federal income tax collected comes from where. The rich pays the VAST majority of federal income taxes. |
What would they have paid without the loopholes and tax shelters?
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What percentage of their income did they pay compared to what percentage of my income did I pay.
I'm more interested in that then what they paid overall. If I pay 25% and they pay 2% then they aren't being taxed enough compared to me - even if they paid $1,000,000 and I paid $10,000. |
I am not one for tax loopholes. That's a fine conversation to have. Tax loop holes are set up by those who pass tax law, or the congress. While I would love for it to happen, congress isn't going to give up that power any time soon.
However, regardless of loopholes, one cannot possibly say that when the top 1% pays 40% of all federal taxes that they aren't paying their fair share or that the middle class is paying taxes that increase the wealth of the uh...wealthy. |
I agree with Betty. What percentage of their income do they actually pay?
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I'm not going to throw in my opinion on this one right now (don't have the time), except to point out that the Wall Street Journal editorial and the report from the Tax Foundation skew conservative. While The Tax Foundation calls itself non-partisan, they've been consistently one-sided for decades. While not nearly as sexy or incendiary, I would suggest that folks here check out the comparisons at the Tax Policy Center (from the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution) and their blog, TaxVox.
You're not likely to get as many talking points (for either side), but you might see some data that will help you to draw some conclusions on your own. |
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Why shouldn't they have to pay a similar percentage to everyone else? Because they are rich? Because they already pay so much? Psh. Why shouldn't they be left with 75% of their earnings like I am after taxes? That's still a considerable amount of money. Seems like they are getting special privledges. What ever happened to that proposal of a flat tax of 10% for everyone? and by everyone I mean everyone - not just those that can't afford to pay for the unforseen loopholes. From what I saw of McCain's latest proposal, all his tax relief won't affect me at all. But it will certainly affect all those will a lot of money. I'm not suggesting that those with money be forced to pay more then me - just the same percentage as me. |
I don't believe I suggested they shouldn't pay the same percentage as everyone else. I am challanging ISM's assertion that "the tax structure of our nation has ALWAYS been a redistrubution of wealth, from the middle class to the rich. "
As far as what Mousepod pointed out, either the rich paid that percentage or they didn't. I suppose the NTU could be misreporting data from the IRS, but I doubt it. As a side note, I voted for Forbes in the AZ primary in 2000. He was the biggest proponent for the flat tax that's ever taken the national spotlight. |
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Taxes are not merely a fee for use of public facilities.
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What are taxes for? To provide for the functions of government.
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It is a redistribution. If that data is correct, it's what they paid after the loopholes and shelters that shielded them from the much vaster amount of tax they would have owed without access to those methods unwealthy people have no access to.
And if 1% of the population controls 80% of the wealth, why should that 1% not pay 80% of the taxes? What difference does it make if 80% of the taxes is paid by 1% of the people, if that's their share according to the share of wealth they control? |
The standard answer to that is because it's income tax, not wealth tax. If you were to already own 25% of the country's wealth, retire, pull it all out of any sort of savings/investments, would you still be expected to pay taxes yearly on it?
Some say yes, some say no. But regardless, no matter if you look at wealth or income (or, growth of wealth), the top percentile of individuals in this country pay a significantly smaller percentage of their own fortune than those below them do. |
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This is the main reason I oppose the income tax at all. I think the founders had it right with property taxes. Who possesses the most property? The wealthy. The wealthy can indeed take advantage of loopholes, but the fact is they are there often times passed into law by the very people that decry them as unfair. I would have no problem with some form of wealth tax....after all, in reality, that's what a property tax is. I also don't oppose some form of national sales tax (both of those are assuming the income tax went away). I like a national sales tax because that is a tax on consumption rather than earning and is much, much more visible to the consumer. |
Surprisingly, I agree with Scaeagles with regards to a national sales tax. It's consumer driven, and those who consume the most will pay the most. It seems more equitable, on paper anyway- it's just the implementation that concerns me. The rich have a way of worming out little loopholes and exceptions for themselves.
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The main argument against it is a legit one....being that since some 30% of people pay no income tax now, they are immediately hit by the national sales tax on all purchases.
I'm sure those smarter than me can come up with some thing, such as a graduated scale based on the purchase price, no tax on food, etc. |
Stand back! scaeagles and I agree!
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WB and 3894 agree with me in the same thread within a scant couple of posts of each other. I feel.....dirty.
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Yeah - I was sort of agreeing with you too but thought I'd feel "dirty" if I posted that I did. Dang it. Now I need a shower don't I?
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I think not taxing rent or food would help the poor immensely. A national sales tax would help discourage consumerism and encourage savings, but then there's the double-edged sword of reduced consumerism harming the economy.
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But also the effect of more $ in the consumer pocket. |
And, rhetorically, I ask ... what good does that extra $5 do if that consumer works in retail and no longer has a job?
I'm reminded every Christmas season that our entire economy depends on rampant consumer spending, and that half the retail businesses in the U.S. would go out of business if the Grinch were to really steal the holiday when 80% of sales are made. So I'm morally in favor of anything that stops people from spending money foolishly and recklessly ... but that also will generally reduce our average standard of living ... if retail suffers great losses, too much job loss will be a result. It's a conundrum. Fortunately, I'm not in charge of running the world. But I'd have to say the better of two bad choices is for people to stop spending money like water, money that they all too often do not have ... but spend on credit. Still, I'm doing better than the U.S. government. I owe about $20K to credit cards, but my share of the national debt owed to China, et al. is $480K. Maybe I should run the world after all. |
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That's creepy, CM. REally, really creepy. I hope I have forgotten that by the time I take a shower in the morning.
ISM, I used to have a positive net worth by a whol lot, then my house lost some 25% of its value, putting me about even. Sigh. Thankfully, no credit card debt. |
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Could make it really kinky with a Reagan mask, and you three could wear Pelosi, Hillary, and Michelle Obama masks.
OK....this is getting more creepy. |
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Son of William F. Buckley endorses Obama:
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Hmm. The link seems to be very slow. Below is the entire article: Spoiler:
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And then Buckley resigns from the National Review:
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It's interesting to read the article, especially the part where he describes some of the backlash Kathleen Parker received. Very interesting. |
Thanks for those links, GC.
Sigh, how many more times must we see it? Right:Evil. Left:Good. |
Left:Stupid. Right:Smart.
Oh, wait. I'm not supposed to make generalities like that, no matter how many links I could find to articles from columnists that might assert the same thing. My bad. |
GC, thanks for those very intresting reads, nice to read a erudite column.
What a shame, I'm sure this kind of thing happens on the liberal side more than I will ever know (Joe Lieberman probably got some of this), but sheesh the nastiness and the threats. And I thought warmly of Sceagles as he quoted his own conservative hero Quote:
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Well, it is indeed true that the Republicans are no longer the party of small government or fiscal conservatism or any number of other things. Sad thing is the dems certainly aren't it either.
I keep telling myself as it becomes more and more certain that Obama wins that it took a Carter to get a Reagan. The republicans at present aren't that much different than they were under Ford. |
You can knee-jerk all you want, scaeagles ... but I've yet to hear any tales of people shouting "Kill Him" about McCain at a Biden ralley, or of people writing they wish their mothers had aborted them and thrown their fetus-selves into a dumpster about Democrats who happen to endorse the Republican ticket.
Tell me again which side of the polarization constantly wants violence, and then tell me who's good and who's evil. If Stupid is good, I'll pick stupid. But tell me with a straight face that peace is a mode of the stupid and violence a mode of the intelligent. Go on. |
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Will we all be saying it takes a Bush to get an Obama? |
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Stupid. I've seen the video (mentioned earlier) of the march of people carrying McCain/Palin signs through Manhattan and the reaction of a whole bunch they passed. Hateful. Intolerant. I've seen the graffiti and vandalism at some republican/McCain offices spouting "McCain means slavery" and whatever else they wrote. Violent. Hateful. Stupid. Intolerant. I've herd the interviews of leftists referring to Palin as a b*itch. Offensive. I can keep going. Go ahead and say "anecdotal". That's precisely what you're putting forth. Is it unfortunate? Indeed. Is it representative? Only to the extent the above example are representative of the left. |
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For the record, I have a distinct memory of being 14 years old and talking with my friends about how he hoped that Ronald Reagan would be elected because he would be so bad that we'd get a real progressive leader to follow him. My first vote was against Reagan's second term. When the Democrats failed to put up a worthy opponent to RWR's VP in 1988, I left the party and didn't return until this year.
It's 28 years after Reagan's landslide victory. If you real conservatives want to help get Obama elected using the same logic I used back in 1980... thank you. |
... and I still listen to the Howard Stern show. They did the same flip with a McCain supporter and he said the exact same thing. It just proved that from a random sampling of people on the street... everyone's stupid.
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Right Mousepod....just like the vandalism and slurs and violence as portrayed on the right will happen to the same amount on the left.
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I agree that violence, hatred and intolerance is stupid - no matter which side it comes from. I also agree that there are a lot of stupid people out there.
Here's where I make a distinction (and why the Republican party hasn't ever really appealed to me): pro-war, anti-choice, anti-freedom to marry... all important parts of the Republican platform... all strike me as intolerant. Reagan's small government beliefs might have been attractive - but the Cold War Red Scare tactics and his embrace of the Moral Majority scared the crap out of me. It bothers me when Democrats "move to the center" by embracing intolerance - like when Tipper Gore and her Washington Wives attacked the First Amendment, or Bill Clinton wussed out with "Don't ask, don't tell." I understand why some politicians pander to the religious right... it gets them the votes they need to get elected. I wish that weren't the case. While Rev. Wright (and Obama's connection to him) leaves a bad taste in my mouth - I also know that Obama hasn't inflicted Wright's beliefs on the platform of his party. And that's why he - and the party - gets my vote this year. |
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Using scaeagles' mirroring technique, I have to say that the people who are voting for Obama just because he's African American are as misguided as those who are voting against him because he's African American.
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You get to be Hillary, right? |
Colin Powell expected to endorse Obama
Don't know how authoritative O'Donnell is on the matter, but assuming he's right about Powell's pending decision, it would indeed be a pretty definitive boost for Obama. |
And speaking of Mr. Powell...
Colin Powell at Hip Hop Festival It's worth a click just to see the picture at the top. :D |
Oh hells yes that would be a boost. Lots of people really like Colin Powell and respect him.
Of course some will spin it off as a racial thing, but Colin's a smart guy and I don't think that's what he'd base his decision on. (besides, he got royally screwed by the Bush admin., that's reason enough, LOL) |
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I liked that. Great message. At the same time, it kinda creeped me out. |
There are some numbers trickling in on early voting in states that allow such data to be collected.
In some key states, Obama is showing very large leads among early voters : .-----------Poll --- % Voted ---------------------- Non-Early State ---- Date ---- Early ----- Early Voters ------ Likely Voters ================================================== == NM ----- 10/13 ---- 10% ----- Obama +23% ----- Obama +6% OH ------ 10/13 ---- 12% ----- Obama +18% ----- Obama +4% GA ------ 10/12 ---- 18% ----- Obama +6% ------ McCain +11% IA ------- 10/9 ----- 14% ----- Obama +34% ----- Obama +10% NC -------10/6 ----- 5% ------ Obama +34% ----- McCain +5% Not that one would expect that huge difference between general polling of likely voters and these early voters to hold up come November. But it does seem to be an early indication that Obama is winning the voter turnout game among his base. And, as a comparison point, Bush had more than 60% of the early vote over both Gore and Kerry, so this appears to be a switch in early voter pattern, from a party perspective. |
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Being pro-war (assuming you mean Iraq) is intolerant? I'm not sure how. Being pro-life is intolerant? Certainly blowing up clinics and threatening to shoot abortion doctors is, but it's been a really long time since I can remember such a thing happening, and those things have never been a platform of the republican party. Not to open the debate, but pro-lifers don't consider it an issue of choice, they see the unborn as alive and needing protection. Again, not sure how this is intolerant. If it is about passion on the issues, both sides are indeed passionate on those subjects and shout each other down all the time. |
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As someone who is pro-choice, my personal stance is "it ain't my business, deal with the situation as you see fit, go to therapy for your mental well-being no matter what you decide and next time use a f*cking condom". ;) |
Yes, it's intolerant of women ... I assume there's no debate about whether they are alive.
War is intolerant of, ya know, humans. Sometimes you really are a puzzlement, Leo. |
Honestly, that puzzles me, ISM.
Of course the ENTIRE abortion debate is about whether or not the unborn is alive or not. War is sometimes a necessary evil. You may regard the Iraq war as an intolerant one, which would be an issue for discussion, but while all war is unfortunate, not all is unnecessary (on one side at least). |
Honestly, that puzzles me, scaeagles.
Of course the ENTIRE war debate is about whether or not the enemy is worthy of killing or not. Abortion is sometimes a necessary evil. While all abortions are unfortunate, not all are unnecessary. |
scaeagles, to clarify my feeling about the Republican party being pro-war. In my lifetime, America has been involved in:
- Vietnam (while this was a JFK/LBJ concoction, my earliest memory of political awareness was Nixon and Cambodia). - Grenada - Ronald Reagan - Panama - George H. W. Bush - Afghanistan - George W. Bush - Iraq - George W Bush Now, I know that you could point to Clinton's involvement in Bosnia, but I honestly see that as a NATO-led intervention that actually came almost too late. I'm not saying that my feelings are 100% facts, it's just that I see Republicans as Hawks, and it doesn't sit right with me. |
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Is it a seperate animal though or part of it's host until it can survive outside of it's host?
I'm not "pro abortion" but I'm certainly for politicians staying the heck out of my uterus... although up to a point I would draw the line and say - it's too f-ing late now. |
Pro-choice does not equal pro abortion. Pro life does equal anti-abortion.
Pro-choice means you are for choice. If you feel an abortion is the best choice in your specific situation then have one. If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one. |
Betty: that's kind of what I use as a guideline. Obviously it's very difficult to define a line between when it's a part of the mother's body that she gets to have dominion over and when it must be considered an individual being that gets to impose itself on the mother a little longer.
A fertilized egg cannot survive out of the womb. A nearly full-term baby can. Where the line falls in the middle, tough to say. So I tend to think that when the baby could theoretically be delivered that day and survive, then it's too late to abort. That's somewhere around the 5.5-6 month mark, I believe. I think that's more than enough time to decide whether or not you're keeping it. |
Yes, a tough decision. One most women don't want The State to make for them.
Obama nailed it on that one, and McCain played to his base ... which his running mate has already locked up, so I don't see the strategic point for him in alienating all the undecided white woman who are his only possible salvation at this point. |
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Personally, I am Pro-Life. Abortion sucks, don't have one. There are almost always better options for the child. Policy wise, I'm rabid Pro-Choice. I don't like abortion (I mean come on, who does?), but I really don't like the government interfering with our lives to that level. So if you want to do the wrong thing it sucks but it's a personal choice. |
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My parents, for instance, are pro-life without any exceptions. I would call them pro-life/anti-abortion...
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I tend to feel that because it has to do only with women, it's somehow ok to many men to be Pro-Life.
For example, if the argument had something to do with their balls... for instance, if you chose not to use a condom and there was an unwanted pregancy, they could cut off one of your balls. Would you be pro choice for that? Why? Because it's not up to the government to decide if you have 1 ball or 2, or none at all? Yeah - that's not a very good argument I know. But politician's just don't mess with men's junk. they shoudln't be messing with mine either. How about - if ProLife meant you HAD to father a child. There was no choice. Think of all the wasted sperm that could be made into children? Or what if you coudln't have sex without the express purpose of producing a baby so as not to kill off any potential children. No rubbin one out either... to many lost children down the shower drain. Okay - my arguments still aren't getting any better. I guess I'm done. |
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See see see? Obama agrees with my Han Solo advice. "Don't get cocky." I will be happy once all the votes are counted and a winner is chosen. But I must say I'm more hopeful now. :) |
I'll say it - Obama has this in the bag. Unless there is a major October surprise in which a video of Obama meeting with Bin Laden in the caves of Pakistan and embracing him while handing him cash labelled "for anti aircraft stinger missiles" and then giving him a big wet tongue involved smooch, it's over.
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If you didn't see it, here's a short youtube from the debate. Safe for work. |
I'm more offended by "pro-abortion" than the air quotes.
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That's because you're a man. :p
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There are statistics that show child abuse and neglect rates dropping in the 60s after R v. W was implemented. There are also statistics that show the number of new gang members dropping to about 15 years later. This was attributed to abortion becoming legal and women who didn't want [would resent, abuse, neglect] their kids ultimately not having them. I'll see if I can find them later. We discussed this in one of my psych classes and also a womens study class. |
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Are you suggesting Obama and McCain are having an affair? |
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Well, it would obviously be because the right is homophobic. |
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OH OH... I get it, you were making a funny. I skipped right over the dead and white part. Duh! Good one! :snap: But sadly no. I have no time to think of others' affairs. Just my own relationship with Rachel Maddow. The thought consumes me. |
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pwned.
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I don't think I was pwned at all. If it's life, which I understand you aren't conceding, wouldn't it then follow that it's human life?
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I miss Alex and Tengima!
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Well that's anthropomorphism at it's finest.
No, Leo, life is not limited to human life. In fact, I'd say human life comprises an unfathomably tiny percentage of what is life. Yeah, yeah, I know what you meant. But since it doesn't refute Strangler's point in the least, I felt like being obstinate. |
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But ISM, of course I know life isn't limited to human life. But since each species by definition gives birth to its own kind, if it is life, it would be human life. |
Graphic Abortion Photos to be displayed on moving trucks in FL.
Story here. Supposedly the organization is non-partisan, but they are going through a county that has been a battleground for the election. |
Disgusting
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This graphic approach was very common back in the 80s, and I never saw anyone respond to it in any way except to feel contempt for those who put up the display. It's not an approach that changes people's minds. (
and apparently, these trucks will also feature images of the Holocaust, lynchings, and 9/11. Won't the children be delighted! Won't parents have a fine time getting them to sleep that night.) I gotta agree with JWB. Disgusting, not to mention stupid. (I imagine even the more thoughtful among "right=to=life" supporters will hate this just as much.) |
I also wonder if it's illegal. Disturbing the peace with stuff that's very disturbing.
And like flippyshark sez, that sound you hear is the trucks' backfire. |
There was a guy here with a truck with very graphic images that used to park down at Balboa Park. We'd have to pass it on the way to the zoo with Madz. Not something you really want your kid to see or have to explain.
Definately doesn't make me sympathetic to their point at all. |
You'd think that there would something illegal about that - but I suppose they have a right to free speech as much as the rest of us.
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The Washington Post endorses Obama:
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The Chicago Tribune Endorses Obama
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Sounds like Colin Powell might endorse Obama on "Meet the Press" this Sunday.
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Not the point (though that's immediately what I thought of, too). With no further information, I would have thought "D'uh." But with the proviso that the paper has never before endorsed the Democratic nominee, this is worthy of news in some other paper.
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That's pretty big, imho. Hell just froze over. :D |
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I'm also not sure that such displays can't have an impact on people. There are people who go around inner city schools trying to teach the kids the reality of gun violence, i.e., you think it's cool being shot? Look at these kids in the hospital and how messed up they are. And so on. |
Adlai Stevenson was a Democratic nominee - - twice. Neither time was he endorsed by the Trib.
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I guess today is newspaper endorsement day.
LA Times is for Obama. Quote:
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It's also the first time the LA Times has ever endorsed a Democrat for president (they last endorsed a presidential candidate in 1972).
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Sent in my absentee ballot yesterday.
My unofficial third son, Kaelyn (Scrooge McSam has met him) - the son of a white woman and a black man - filled in the bubble for Barack Obama for me. It was a moment of pride in my country for me....and a huge helping of 'I can do anything' for my boy, Kaelyn. Yesterday was a very good day. |
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http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=18481
Obama: "I Was Born On Krypton!" Quote:
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Obama is a comic geek? Whowouldathunk?
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Fitzgeralds in downtown Vegas has Obama cutouts all over the casino.
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I can, and I did. Our ballots arrived today, and I voted - with a little help from the ToriBear. I let her fill in the Obama/Biden spot, which I feel is only right. It's her generation, and the ones that follow, that will be paying the price for these past eight years. I hope that she feels the same way about voting as I always have, and that five years from now she will feel the same thrill I did when I turned 18 and first registered to vote. Hopefully, she won't encounter as many keggers along the way......:D
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I just wanted to add how very thrilled I was to FINALLY be able to vote for Obama. No matter what happens, I know I was part of something good- a small part, to be sure, but a part nonetheless.
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*sticks head in room*
Oh, so this election thingy is STILL going on. Geez. It started, what, 3 years ago now?? :p Pblblblbllbplblblblblblbpppf. *runs out of room again* |
Colin Powell has now endorsed Obama. This is to be a real blow to the McCain campaign and the GOP. He's scheduled on Meet The Press today, I will be watching.
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I just saw this. Awesome. But, I like how Obama is telling his people not to declare victory right off. And, I can't believe Palin is blaming this 'ACORN' mess on Obama? Nothing has been proven but in the past it has been proven that there was corruption within the voting places on the plus side for the Rs. How about the people who register you to vote and telling people to leave it open that they would fill it in and then putting R? Or the people who did that and tossed the ones who were Ds? This has happened prior and also currently. Oh, sharing this with the kids~ I brought my son in last night to watch SNL. And, we discuss Prop h8 often with the children. {who aren't really} But, that is for another thread..... |
HELP!! I think I'm addicted. I can't stop watching the SNL Palin rap.
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From my porch I can see Russia and such... ALL THE MAVERICKS IN THE HOUSE PUT YOUR HANDS UP!! ALL THE MAVERICKS IN THE HOUSE PUT YOUR HANDS UP!! ALL THE PLUMBERS IN THE HOUSE PULL YOUR PANTS UP!! ALL THE PLUMBERS IN THE HOUSE PULL YOUR PANTS UP!! |
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:D A couple of other things: Amy Poelher: Funny as heck, you betcha. The woman is rapping and still working on the show and is like ready to give birth like right this second. Sketch: On the whole, the sketch was funny-ish. The Real Sarah Palin: Not all that funny. Lame. Good sport, but boring to watch. Tina Fey: More interesting to watch as Sarah Palin than Sarah Palin is. Seth Meyers: Cute cute cute freakin' smile. I'm in love. Last night's SNL: Outside of Mark Wahlberg, the rap and the Tina/Palin sketch at the beginning... SUCKED! In fact, SNL (outside of their recent political stuff) is sucking suck juice. :D I thought the rap was decent, but I thought they could have gone a thousand different places with Palin and kind of just let her sit there... The short shot where Palin and Fey crossed paths at the beginning was great. :D |
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"Caribou Barbie" = freakin' funny, you betcha.
:D |
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Predictably, conservative pundits are doing some serious sour-graping over the Colin Powell endorsement.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_135968.html |
I guess George Will forgot about his negative comments regarding John McCain a few weeks ago. He probably got spanked by the Party. I loved this: (not)
"There will be "some impact," Will declared. "And I think this adds to my calculation -- this is very hard to measure -- but it seems to me if we had the tools to measure we'd find that Barack Obama gets two votes because he's black for every one he loses because he's black because so much of this country is so eager, a, to feel good about itself by doing this, but more than that to put paid to the whole Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson game of political rhetoric." What a ****ing idiot. Yeah, I'm voting for Obama because of white guilt. That's it. McCain is just so much more superior, but I just want to feel good about electing a black man so I'm going with the other candidate. THIS is why they will lose this election- could you be any more in denial and out of touch with the citizenry of this country? |
I think what he's talking about is related to the Bradley effect (referring to, i think, a CA governors election?).
The Bradley effect is basically that white people lied to pollsters about who they voted for because they didn't want anyone to think they didn't vote for Bradley because he was black. Polling showed Bradley was going to win by double digits, but he lost. Conversely, I would suppose there are a lot of people who feel guilty about racism and may indeed vote for a black man simply because he is black. Isn't that as valid as the accusation that many won't vote for him because he is black? |
Well, I know people who are voting for McCain because he is old. The last, dying gasp of the elder Boomers, who still want to be the big societal influence they've always been as a group and can't stand the thought of letting the next generation have a whack at running things. I've had many discussions with such persons, and even though they might have little in common with McCain ideologically they are tempted to vote for him merely because he's in their age range. So sure, there are people who will vote for Obama because he's a black man, but I'm not so sure I buy Scaeagle's Bradley explanation. I cannot see where in that statement that Will mentions this- he's seems pretty specific about the black guilt thing actually moving people to cast a vote, not lying to pollsters.
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I have mixed feelings about the Powell endorsement. What he said was eloquent and hit the mark. But I also remember him with a vial in his hands talking about WMDs, assisting in the push to go to war with Iraq. And Obama's praise of the man and telling the media Powell will be an adviser of his concerns me a great deal.
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I don't remember where I posted it, but fivethirtyeight.com showed some numbers that said 6% of responders would not vote for Obama because he is black, while 9% said they would vote for Obama simply because is black. You've got to figure that the 6% number is low (the Bradley effect), but even with that fudge factor built in, the idiots pretty much balance each other out.
But none of that has anything to do with the hateful questioning of Powell's motivations. Cause, really, he's shown himself to be such a racially motivated wag in his career, right? :rolleyes: ETA: re: GC, he's also since made it known that he was very much on the outside of the administration and fed very distorted information and that he very much regrets being involved and influential in that decision making process. |
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I don't understand why it's so unreasonable, really. What he's saying is that in the current USA environment of race relations, yes, there are those who won't vote for him because he's black, and that there may be more who vote for him because he is, and that group includes white people with angst over days with race relations that were much, much worse than they are now. |
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As far as Powell goes, though, Powell has said that having a black President would be "electrifying". That may not be his overwhelming motivation, but it is apparent that it comes into play a bit because of that statement. |
Because he's being dismissive of Obama's voter base, calling into question their intelligence and motivation. He doesn't get it. Well, actually I think he does get it, but the truth is far scarier than the lame-assed excuse he is offering up.
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Yep, Powell's credibility is zero with me. And frankly, I think the endorsements of people and newspapers rate near zero with the vast majority of voters.
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While blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors isn't part of the conservative platform, I didn't see the condemnation of it coming from the Right. Quote:
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Yes, to reasonable people, violence is not always necessary. However, the world is full of unreasonable people who only will play nicely when threats of violence that will be followed through on are used. Otherwise there is no deterrence. Re:clinics and doctors - Of course the vast majority of the right has condemned such actions when they have taken place. There are the far, far, far, right fringe elements that don't condemn it, but that's, well, the fringe. Not unlike most people on the left who were against the Vietnam war didn't support blowing up US governmnet buildings in protest. |
Just popping in to say that I want to carve a pumpkin. Wish we had more time to have a carving party.
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As the nominee for Vice President of the United States, has any major party ever nominated an individual less qualified than Ms. Palin?
Palin Claims The Vice President Is ‘In Charge Of The U.S. Senate' Quote:
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Yes We Carve! :cool: |
Sarah Palin just makes me hang my head in shame.
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Tina Fey said it best on Letterman: You look at her and get the sense that she's just as smart as me...and that's just not good enough for VP damnit!
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Forget Palin. They should have called Obama the Barackuda.
:D |
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1) It was the politest way to say it. 2) I am well aware that our perception of her is highly distorted. She was thrown into a world that was WAY out of her league and she floundered. She came out looking far dumber than she actually is. I can't imagine being sat down in front of Katie Couric with as little preparation time as they gave her and coming off looking particularly intelligent. It's like taking a college baseball player who was a walk on on his team, making him face Nolan Ryan in his prime, and pointing and laughing at him when he strikes out and nearly falls down swinging at a 100mph fastball. I do not think she's a blathering moron. I think she possesses the attitude that is courted by the Republican party that values brashness and "gumption" over knowledge. That attitude earned her the governorship, so I don't blame her for holding on to it. But playing it by ear doesn't cut it in the majors. She got a very ugly, painful lesson in the difference between ability and skill, and the reality that just because you got a knack for something doesn't mean you don't also have to sit down and gather some knowledge to rise to the highest level. |
This is all true, but I highly doubt you'd answer a question like "what periodicals do you read" with "all of them." Surely, anyone thrown into that situation is under unusual pressure. But she's said some things that are simply baffling. I think Tina Fey was simply being polite.
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She (Palin, not Fey) doesn't do well under pressure, I think. Her brain just shuts down. That would not bode well for a Palin Presidency.
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I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I was not here (or anywhere) posting in the immediate aftermath of her being selected, already harping on her. I thought I'd watch her for a while before passing judgement. I have watched her for several weeks, and even allowing for the crash course she has been subjected to, and allowing that even an intelligent person can often formulate sentences that make no sense, and make every other allowance I can for her, I just can't find much there there.
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The McCain thread long ago became almost entirely focused on Palin, but, why must it happen to this thread also?!
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Eventually all threads will be about Palin...
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I am so carving an Obama pumpkin!!!!
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Obama....Haloween...scary...yeah, I get it.
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We have a neighbor with a rather elaborate haunted yard...with a McCain sign in the middle. I don't know if they are trying to promote the elder statesman by putting zombies and ghosts around it...;)
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Neither side of the political spectrum has a strangle hold on ridiculous scare tactics. I won't list them for fear of being accused of deflection, but when you say "usual", I can cite "usual" leftist scare tactics as well.
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Yes, scaeagles, for our edification and delight, please share two or three.
And while you're at it, please provide any concrete examples of Democrats perpetrating voter fraud, when it's the Republicans' exclusive province. They stole Ohio in 2004, and it's been PROVEN with photographic evidence of hundreds of thousands of altered ballots, far more than the margin of defeat for Kerry. Now, instances of voter machines registering McCain votes upon pressing the Obama buttons are turning up at early voter locations all over the country. Republicans are fearmeisters and theives and I challenge you to demonstrate any such thing on the Democrat side. Meanwhile, ACORN so scrupulously investigates their incoming voter registrations for errrors (because, yes, there's financial incentive in gathering them) that they turned all the errors found in Nevada immediately over to the Secretary of State ... a Repulican who prompty cried VOTER FRAUD and started this whole completely BOGUS smear campaign on ACORN as yet another Republican tactic of voter suppression, which they practice - AGAIN EXCLUSIVELY - even more virulently than they do voter fraud. FEAR AND ELECTION THEFT ARE THE PROVINCE OF REPUBLICANS. I dare you to demonstrate otherwise. |
Back on topic for a moment:
The Obama campaign is showing no signs of coasting on this lead: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27315660/ Quote:
Also interesting in that article was what Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, had to say about sharing the huge amount of campaign donations they've received with other Dems running for other offices. The response was that they weren't going to hand them money, instead they're using the money to put people on the streets to get democrats to register and vote. And you know, if I were a Dem running for office, I'd be cool with that. I mean, lord knows they've proven that they know how to get sh*t done with that money thus far, why stop them now? |
On the crumbling from within front, I can't think of anything worse that could happen to this country than 1) to revisit the McCarthy era where the awesome might of the government is put behind investigations of the loyalty of its citizens and 2) to have this country declare itself officially or semi-officially a Christian nation. Republicans are going down this road--again--now. Probably most of them don't mean it, but that doesn't make it much better.
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Well said, SL
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I think it's going to take a prolonged period of extreme liberalism to get the Republican party to swing moderate again (in other words, the Dems will have to get so over-the-top liberal that the moderates start gravitating to the other party, and the other party starts to see even moderate stances as a win.) I also think it would take a very long time for that to happen.
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Have you guys seen this series of photos by Callie Shell? I actually teared up. Make sure you keep clicking "show more images" because there are some terrific ones down the line.
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Do you see the first couple, or is the whole link broken? It's working for me. D'oh, SF, I really wanted you to see these!
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Dude, LSPE, I am *loving* these pictures!
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They're totally beautiful. And inspiring. And catch those usually-unseen moments that represent what I most like about the man.
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Yep, more images link broken for me, too and boo-hoo.
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Do you have the most recent version of flash installed? They flash in, I think. It sucks that you can't see them. What a bummer, they're great.
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LS, those pictures are just beautiful. Thank you.:)
Is it me, or does Obama remind anyone else of RFK? There's just something about his demeanor that really reminds me of him. I was very young when RFK was murdered, but I loved him. I wanted him to be my dad, probably because he already had 11 kids and what's one more? I was five when he died, but I remember him pretty well for being so young at the time. |
Well, to me they show his realism. He's portrayed as elitist, and intellectually I think he is (and should be), but in terms of real life experience and being able to relate, I see him as a much more "real" person. These pictures show that.
I'm sure someone could make a photo essay of McCain full of touching moments, but they wouldn't be the same moments, and it's the moments that define him. |
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Lovely photos I'm thinking of saving them on my computer.
There's a McCain photo gallery on the same site. The contrast is stark. Of course, it could be a photographer's bias... |
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How about this picture? Just what's going on? :D
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Or this?
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Damn, that cracked me up. Visible mojo.
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Heheh, I love the McCain Palin Graveyard of Dead Ideologies.
As for the photo of Obama with the biggest smile i've EVER seen on his face while the little tyke's face is planted in his crotch ... well, all I can say is I'm glad the link to further pictures didn't work for me. :eek: |
This is a little late ... but I think Obama may have just won back my vote.
Although I'd heard clips of it, I finally saw his entire performance at the Al Smith dinner, and, um, he's hysterical. If he can do comedy on top of everything else, I think I'm really going to enjoy him as president (and the comedic part more likely as former president later on.) Really he's a riot. |
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Oh, I loved that speech!
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Creative, fun and definitely going for the weird nostalgia skew for the voters. I think it was brave of them in a way, I mean, it is very creepy to see and old Opie and an Old Fonz. That said, I loved it. |
Don't get me wrong, I laughed too and agree with his message. But the whole thing kinda hit me in a Baby Jane sort of way if you know what I mean.
:D |
That was way cool.
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Yeah, that's pretty much what I got out of the video.
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I really have to start remembering to bring my headphones to my computer breaks
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There's a link on the same page to a video featuring Natalie Portman (meh) and Rashida Jones (Yowch! She is scorching!) who have the definitive answer to the world's economic crisis. Check it out, I promise you won't be sorry. :)
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For some reason this makes me happy
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The "Hey Sarah Palin" couple made a new YouTube video. It's to Young MC's Bust a Move. It's better than the other one, imho. This guy is a pretty clever writer.
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I didn't know Andy Griffith was still alive!
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Even after seeing that video I'm not entirely convinced.
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New York Times Endorses Obama - no surprise there...
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I went to my local Democratic office tonight to get a Obama t-shirt and a 'No on 8' bumper sticker for my car. The place was packed. It made me happy.
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You know, Ron Howard's been holding that in for 40 years. Never has he played that card. But today, he felt strongly enough to pull it out.
"Vote for Obama. Freaking Opie says so!" |
Released today - John McClain, The Terminator, and Frasier Crane all come out in support of McCain.
McClain says that terrorist attacks are a serious threat and McCain is best suited to handle it. The Terminator said "Zohshuleezm'll bee bahck" if you vote for Obama. Crane said anyone voting for Obama needs deep psychological help and they should call his show immediately. |
Oooookaaaay....
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I'm confused and amused
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It's in reference to three Hollywood republicans and major roles -
Bruce Willis as John McClain in the Die Hard movies. Arnold as the Terminator. Kelsey Grammar from as Dr. Frasier Crane in the TV show Frasier. Thought it was appropriate based on the Opie endorsement for Obama. |
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It's okay Scaeagles - just a another week and a half and it'll all be over. |
Thank god for that
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I post here because it mocks the other candidate. I never know where to post anymore!
In a desperate move, McCain hires famous directors for his TV spots. Make sure you hang on for the Wes Anderson one at the end. |
Every time I see the Obama logo, I kinda want to drink a Pepsi.
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Would I love to be there? Uh, yeah! :) |
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I do believe that to be inaccurate. If nothing else the civil rights movement has won him the right to be in the front pocket of big business. No more back pockets for today's African American achievers.
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No one's in my back pocket. And that's my own damn fault.
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So I am a coroporate lackey racist. You've opened my eyes, Alex. Thank you.
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Unlike McCain and Bush, who are so far up Big Business's ass it walks funny.
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You are most certainly welcome!
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