The Art of Moving On

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

And squids are not just less cute than dolphins; they're less smart. Dolphins get money and attention because they are the other brilliant, fully conscious species on our little planet. Most of them are smarter than most of us.

...we thought that you were pretty cute
especially tiny tots and your pregnant women!
So long so long and thanks!
for all the fish!

[wendybeth]

GC- I think that people who still attend the church yet hold opinions that conflict with the church's stance on things are able to do so because they simply don't believe everything the church has taught them. They are able to operate in that 'grey area' you spoke of, and have figured out a way to reconcile the conflicting beliefs- namely, 'don't ask, don't tell'. They attend mass, do all the things that good Catholics do and keep their personal opinions to themselves. John Kerry, the Kennedys, etc, are all examples that we know of because their politics have required that they publically address these issues. They hem and haw and do the usual double-speak when asked about such things as abortion, divorce and that, yet they remain standing members of the church, so far as I know anyway. I think only minor players like us get kicked out.

You're a good person, GC- and an honest one. That's why this is hard for you. You are not a liar, and you won't be a hypocrite. So, start your own religion! I'll join.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

They hem and haw and do the usual double-speak when asked about such things as abortion, divorce and that, yet they remain standing members of the church, so far as I know anyway. I think only minor players like us get kicked out.

They could also be lucky enough to have found congregations that recognizes that "ideal" and "reality" are two different things and understand that what's important is to provide somewhere for individuals to foster their own relationship with God and the dogmatic stuff is secondary to that.

I've tried about 4 times to compose a response to this, and nothing's come out with quite the message I want.

My personal view is, we can't all be activists. Just as I know I could never be a surgeon because I doubt vomiting into my patients' open incisions will do much to improve their health, I know I could never join any sort of large idealistic cause because the stressful state it would leave me in would make me no good to anyone. I simply don't possess the ability to detatch to my day to day and commit all of my emotional energy towards something that large. A lot of people do, and God bless them. I'll leave that to those that are built for it.

So, like Chris, my focus is on figuring out what I can effect on a small scale. Lead by example, be a positive force in the lives of those around you. That's needed just as much as lobbyists and protestors.

I see no contradiction in having a moral stance against something while being able to "get over it and move on" should someone I know make a decission I consider "wrong". Of course, what "getting over it and moving on" entails is a sliding scale depending on the person and the decission. For someone I'm very close to, it would mean forgiving them and doing what I can to make sure from that point on, things are good. For someone I'm not so close to, it may mean I need to reevaluate how much contact I have with them. And the former can easily become the latter should their "wrong" decissions pile up.

In the end, it's an equation of positivity for me. As long as someone else's decissions don't force me to exceed a certain internally obvious threshold of ease in maintaining positive interactions with them, my focus is on positivity for the future, not judgement of the past. I try to do my best to not make things worse for myself, my friends, and my family. I will certainly not hesitate to let someone close to me know my opinions before they make a "wrong" decission (and maybe a little bit after...a little guilt never hurt anyone), but once they've made the decission for themself, I look to the future, helping them make the best of where they are, or removing myself from the situation.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Hi, GC. I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated.

I can commiserate with your anger at the Catholic church. I grew up Catholic as well. I always appreciated the whole JC take on how to treat people. And the older I've gotten, the more I've thought that the Catholic church really pulled away from that. So I've pulled away from it.

So I've chosen to live my life more about that basic theory-- love your neighbor-- than any specific preceipts.

Do I tell my parents I'm Catholic? You bet your cricket butt. There's a sick woman involved and there's no way I'm going to tarnish her remaining days.

Do I go to mass? Sometimes, because I still feel very spiritual and I like the idea of honoring the great-big-unknowable in a group... it's comforting. I like the feeling of a "holy" building, even if I think the unholy management is ignoring what the church was built on.

But do I agree with the Catholic church, do I even like the Catholic church? No. And I don't have to. The way that I don't have to agree that we should abolish social programs and stick to "small" government. The way that I don't have to agree that because I am fat I am a less valuable person than someone else.

There are many people and groups I with whom I disagree. And in many cases those people are so set in their ways that I'm never going to break them down. But if I want to live a positive life, a live moving forward and not stewing in my juices, I have to shift my focus on them, and turn it to me-- turn it to the little differences I can make in my own circle-- and hope that the little ripples that extend from those actions will be a part of the good, the change, the hope in this world.

Hang in there. You are a good man and you are doing good for the world. Your ripples will have effect. But it takes time and patience, and often we don't see them in our lifetime. Focus on what you can do, and what you do do, B-- and that, my friend, is a lot.

[wendybeth]

GD- you might find a parish that is a bit more liberal than others, but at the end of the day the Vatican sets church dogma and policy. The Catholic church isn't like the reformed or Protestant churches- it's their way or the highway. You may attend a church where the priest might look the other way on some things, but you are very much aware that you are not following church doctrine. If you truly believe the Catholic doctrine, then you have to follow the church's teachings or you are not in good standing. Many have tried over the centuries to change things, and some success has happened, but most end up getting excommunicated or leaving on their own.

[Gemini Cricket]

So much wisdom on this board. I'm seriously humbled.

I need time to reply properly.

[Gemini Cricket]

I was going to quote people but it got confusing... So here's a mishmash of the innerworkings of a cricket...


I don't know if there is a god/God/G*d etc. I don't pray, either. I often have these inner conversations with my consciene, but I truthfully can't say that I pray. Both are a huge sore spot with the parents, but I'd rather be honest with them. I've never see going back to church as an option. I can't see condoning a group that seeks to make me disappear. One of the big things I have been struggling with is this: people say they are Catholic and support gay marriage but then turn around and donate money to the church that in turn funds anti-gay causes all around the country. ie. 1998's anti-gay marriage initiative in Hawai'i was funded by the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church. That is a fact. Where did this money come from? Well, some of it came from the faithful with fat checkbooks who say they love me and want me to get married to Ralphie. Huh??

I'd start my own religion if I actually like leading. I don't always. This comes in conflict with the great people who tell me that Ralphie and I are great role models. I don't want to be a role model, either. I'm just me. We're just us. My personal rules about me not following blindly go for others as well... Don't follow, find your own path.

If the Church and other religions did not pursuade law so effectively, I wouldn't have a problem with them at all. I'd say, 'Well that's their deal and they own it. As long as they are preaching to their own, it doesn't affect me.' But it does and it shouldn't.

Now, let me clarify something. I don't attribute my current conflict and grief to the lack of participation in a religion. Believe it or not, I was worse off when I did participate in Sunday masses etc. As much as I miss Midnight Mass, I can play a few Christmas CDs with choral arangements and quench my missing it...

I appreciate everyone's kind words a great deal.

[Capt Jack]

hmm.....not too sure I have anything to add here and am hesitant at best, but eh....what the 773H.

my father had a strong belief in god/higher intelligence (as do I), but a strong disdain for organized religions as a whole. I would see him study the worlds great religions in ernest but never take one as his own. he often said in his observation, the two have nearly nothing to do with each other...a viewpoint I've come to embrace myself.

I believe his disdain was rooted in seeing so many singular interpretations spewed about as 'the word of god' while those self same people would line their pockets with the hard earned living of those who needed/sought guidance. those folk seeking the knowledge and wisdom of god would rely on the religious leaders for meaning/personal action/interpretation rather than discovering those meanings for themselves and taking faith in what they themselves feel and learn through personal experience and witnessing god doin' his thing.

that point of view does help (me at least) with separating oneself from unpopular 'popular belief' vs 'what I think is right and by gods design', while putting blame for the inherent ills where it belongs. on the people themselves.

I think the key you are looking for is believing what you believe, act as your personal faith demands and recognizing that organized religions, while they may indeed have their uses for a great many folk, are created and run by people....and are therefore fundamentally flawed from the start.

mi dos centavos


edit: I think I stared at that horse thing for 20 minutes. damn thing is hynotic!

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I sometimes (half-jokingly) refer to myself as a Born-Again Atheist. While I am strongly opposed to religions, I do recognize that they are not wholly evil and that many people find solace in them. So while I am hardly the person to be seeing religious counseling from, you may wish to check out Dignity, a national organization of GLBT Catholics. There's even a Boston chapter.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

GC, I really empathize. I have been battling the same demons on the Jewish side of the fence. I tend to make things black and white and it's rough.

I've decided that there's no way the one God of my personal beliefs would condone some of the things said in the Torah (including killing gay people). Having said that, I can't possibly believe that God himself wrote the Torah. This completely undermines being able to call myself a Jew. Even if I believe that the people and events in the Torah actually existed, which I still do, a big claim within the book itself is that God told it to Moses word for word.

So, ok, fine, how about if the Chosen People were divinely inspired, but not dictated to? Well, then I end up with a book without any oomph to it. It's one thing to read a human's take on reality and agree with it, but I sure as hell aren't going to think it's the be-all end-all.

Losing the rock-solid black and white of "God said so" has shaken me ever since. Am I really a Jew? I try to think of Abraham and take comfort in it. Being a Jew has little to do with challah and Hebrew - in the end, it's a belief in one God, and an intent to do right by others. That's what "the Chosen People" means - we're supposed to be a good example for the world.

I still love the culture, the language, the food, the gatherings, you name it, but I've been so seperated from it for so long, it leaves me feeling conflicted. I have issues with synagogues but that's a whole other subject. I know that one day I'll bring more Judaism into my life, but it'll be a while.

My disgust with those that wish to legislate according to their religious beliefs echoes onto my problems with organized Judaism, even though those in gov't are almost always from the Christian Right. Religious persecution is religious persecution, and I don't care what side it comes from.

Anyway, that's my ramble on the subject. I have no way to console you, GC, because I feel the same way. I'm also trying to take the wise words others have said here to heart, for my own inner turmoil. I can think "I should deal" but that doesn't mean I can make it manifest...