Uh...What do you say to this?

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Prudence

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming. I have nothing more interesting to contribute to this discussion.

Is there something else they wear? This was an ok costume I thought. Legs were covered, boobs were covered, stomach was not.

[3894]

Thanks for the links, Kevy Baby. I have a Turkish BIL so I'm unfortunately well aware of how the Turks feel about the Greeks. There's a huge gulf between the two cultures. The belly dance may be performed in Greece and France but it's not indigenous to Greece and France.

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Does the fact that my nearly four year old son got turned on to whatever extent an young boy can when he saw a woman using her body in a mildly sexual way make him a product of our culture?

tracilicious, think in behavioralist terms. I'm assuming that only men were stuffing money into the belly dancer's costume? Your son learned that if he did X, then Y would happen. If a male put money in the lady's costume, she'd shake her money maker provocatively. He tried it - it worked!

Our culture commodifies sex. Your son had a little introduction to it. I have two kids and I can't say I'd have handled it differently than you did. The difference is I have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer (over)analyzing what happened to someone else.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by 3894

tracilicious, think in behavioralist terms. I'm assuming that only men were stuffing money into the belly dancer's costume? Your son learned that if he did X, then Y would happen. If a male put money in the lady's costume, she'd shake her money maker provocatively. He tried it - it worked!

Our culture commodifies sex. Your son had a little introduction to it. I have two kids and I can't say I'd have handled it differently than you did. The difference is I have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer (over)analyzing what happened to someone else.

Actually, women were giving her money too. When the tips were slow in coming in the beginning a female waitress came out and put money in her waistband.

Having these new perspectives I can't say if I would do the same thing over again. At the time it really didn't seem like a big deal (and I'm still not sure that it was) and I didn't want to give the act more power by making it a big deal.

[bewitched]

1. Belly dancing may not be endemic to Greece, but it nonetheless has become part of their culture.

2. I see nothing wrong with "objectifying" anyone...as long as they choose it freely. I mean, is there really a functional difference between me watching a hot actor or a male (young or old) watching a belly dancer?

3. We're all assuming that he wanted to "see her naked" because he had budding sexual feelings. Traci, clearly you know your son better than anyone...but it seems to me that a more likely explanation is something like he thought that seeing her whole body shake would have been funny. And sticking something in an adult's pants? What adult lets you do that when you're a little kid...and how funny might you think it is? Not to mention that you get extra attention when you give her a dollar. Little kids' paradise...you get to do something you would usually get in trouble for AND you get positive feedback! (Not to mention the fact that I'm assuming he has no idea that strip clubs even exist; let alone that men go there and stick money in the strippers' "pants")

I think as adults, we have a tendency to view some behaviors and comments from children as "sexual" because we, as adults have learned that is how society at large views them. Children (generally) are not nearly that complex.

A (funny) example:

DH was in the bathroom at the mall using the urinal. There was another man in there with his little girl (maybe 5ish) she looked at DH and at her dad and said, "Daddy, that man's penis is bigger than yours."

One way to view this is from an adult, sexual perspective. The little girl "knew" that large penises are generally more desirable and was doing a comparison about who was better equiped...or, (more likely) she was making a simple observation. Granted, one that probably still haunts her dad to this day.

My point is, at 4, it seems pretty unlikely that sexual feelings were Indi's motivation for his comments or his actions.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by bewitched

1
My point is, at 4, it seems pretty unlikely that sexual feelings were Indi's motivation for his comments or his actions.

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

Which, in my mind is a different question than, when did you become aware that you liked members of your own sex?

DD, Olivia-6 has liked boys since she was about 4. She differentiates between "nice" boys and "spittin'" boys.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

I'm not gay. I'm not even male. But I know that I was drawing pictures of naked people, and occasionally making with the hand party, by the age of five. Children are curious about sexuality-- some more than others, but there's nothing wrong with that. While I'm irked at the mothers who let their children buy low-cut vinyl pants (seriously, they were selling them at The Children's Place a few years ago) or visit build-a-whore for their birthday, but the natural progression of sexual awakening starts early. Traci, I think your goal of not suppressing him-- but teaching him respect-- is an excellent one.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

6 yrs old.

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Is there something else they wear? This was an ok costume I thought. Legs were covered, boobs were covered, stomach was not.

There are different styles of dance and a variety of costumes associated with regional variations. In the US, we generally see a combination of styles, but probably more Turkish than anything, particularly in costuming.