Uh...What do you say to this?

[Strangler Lewis]

Re empowerment: off the top of my head, Aileen Wuornos was in the minority.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by RStar

BTW, how do you make that "C"? I've been wondering that....

The easiest thing to remember is copy and paste - it is your friend. I can tell you on a Mac it is option-shift-2. On a PC, press and hold ALT while you type in the numbers 0128.

Originally Posted by 3894

This activity comes from Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean cultures (esp. Turkey and Syria) and not from Greece. It's culturally inauthentic for a Greek restaurant to hire a belly dancer to go around from one table to another.

This is not true. While we Americans might more readily associate belly dancing with Persian countries, it is not exclusive to them. Belly dancing in Greece has been around for a long time. In Greece, the dance is known as "Tsifteteli" or "Cifte Telli." It also has historic origins that extend into France as well. If you like, there is some information at this link and this link.

Originally Posted by tracilicious

This was nothing like a striptease. I've been to strip clubs, and this wasn't it. It was belly dancing.

<snip>

I have no problem with strip joints as long as the women are voluntarily stripping and the men are voluntarily watching (and the audience is of age of course). Who's to say that the women aren't empowered by this?

Very true T - the two are not the same. Susan (my wife) took belly dancing lessons a while back. In discussing the history, one of the points they covered was that the belly dance was a demonstration of the woman's power - SHE is the one in control. Further, the history of the dance is partly based on religious beliefs of appeasing the Gods towards issues of fertility: not only of women but also of the earth itself.

And in a strip club, it is the woman who is in control. The main "exploitation" that is happening is done by the women exploiting the men and their money!

Originally Posted by tracilicious

What is the dirty way?

That's the fun way

[Prudence]

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming. I have nothing more interesting to contribute to this discussion.

[CoasterMatt]

Originally Posted by Prudence

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming.

I've never seen a belly dancer dressed like Joel Grey.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Prudence

I wish not every restaurant belly dancer went the cabaret route for costuming. I have nothing more interesting to contribute to this discussion.

Is there something else they wear? This was an ok costume I thought. Legs were covered, boobs were covered, stomach was not.

[3894]

Thanks for the links, Kevy Baby. I have a Turkish BIL so I'm unfortunately well aware of how the Turks feel about the Greeks. There's a huge gulf between the two cultures. The belly dance may be performed in Greece and France but it's not indigenous to Greece and France.

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Does the fact that my nearly four year old son got turned on to whatever extent an young boy can when he saw a woman using her body in a mildly sexual way make him a product of our culture?

tracilicious, think in behavioralist terms. I'm assuming that only men were stuffing money into the belly dancer's costume? Your son learned that if he did X, then Y would happen. If a male put money in the lady's costume, she'd shake her money maker provocatively. He tried it - it worked!

Our culture commodifies sex. Your son had a little introduction to it. I have two kids and I can't say I'd have handled it differently than you did. The difference is I have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer (over)analyzing what happened to someone else.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by 3894

tracilicious, think in behavioralist terms. I'm assuming that only men were stuffing money into the belly dancer's costume? Your son learned that if he did X, then Y would happen. If a male put money in the lady's costume, she'd shake her money maker provocatively. He tried it - it worked!

Our culture commodifies sex. Your son had a little introduction to it. I have two kids and I can't say I'd have handled it differently than you did. The difference is I have the luxury of sitting in front of a computer (over)analyzing what happened to someone else.

Actually, women were giving her money too. When the tips were slow in coming in the beginning a female waitress came out and put money in her waistband.

Having these new perspectives I can't say if I would do the same thing over again. At the time it really didn't seem like a big deal (and I'm still not sure that it was) and I didn't want to give the act more power by making it a big deal.

[bewitched]

1. Belly dancing may not be endemic to Greece, but it nonetheless has become part of their culture.

2. I see nothing wrong with "objectifying" anyone...as long as they choose it freely. I mean, is there really a functional difference between me watching a hot actor or a male (young or old) watching a belly dancer?

3. We're all assuming that he wanted to "see her naked" because he had budding sexual feelings. Traci, clearly you know your son better than anyone...but it seems to me that a more likely explanation is something like he thought that seeing her whole body shake would have been funny. And sticking something in an adult's pants? What adult lets you do that when you're a little kid...and how funny might you think it is? Not to mention that you get extra attention when you give her a dollar. Little kids' paradise...you get to do something you would usually get in trouble for AND you get positive feedback! (Not to mention the fact that I'm assuming he has no idea that strip clubs even exist; let alone that men go there and stick money in the strippers' "pants")

I think as adults, we have a tendency to view some behaviors and comments from children as "sexual" because we, as adults have learned that is how society at large views them. Children (generally) are not nearly that complex.

A (funny) example:

DH was in the bathroom at the mall using the urinal. There was another man in there with his little girl (maybe 5ish) she looked at DH and at her dad and said, "Daddy, that man's penis is bigger than yours."

One way to view this is from an adult, sexual perspective. The little girl "knew" that large penises are generally more desirable and was doing a comparison about who was better equiped...or, (more likely) she was making a simple observation. Granted, one that probably still haunts her dad to this day.

My point is, at 4, it seems pretty unlikely that sexual feelings were Indi's motivation for his comments or his actions.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by bewitched

1
My point is, at 4, it seems pretty unlikely that sexual feelings were Indi's motivation for his comments or his actions.

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Perhaps - Question to the Gay members of LoT, at what age did you become aware of your sexuality?

Which, in my mind is a different question than, when did you become aware that you liked members of your own sex?

DD, Olivia-6 has liked boys since she was about 4. She differentiates between "nice" boys and "spittin'" boys.