Ta Ta Jesse Helms

[Tom]

What LSPE has said before, and bears repeating, is that there is a difference between respecting someone and treating someone respectfully. You can have all the disrespect for someone's views that you like, but if you are in the same room with them and treat them with that derision that you feel, then any possibility of influencing or affecting them will forever go out the window.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I think what Tom and Alex and Strangler Lewis have said really highlights the differences in our arguments. I think that MBC and I are talking about a personal interaction, a way to make a personal difference to people who are like Helms. I think the rest of you are talking about your very understandable anger at Helms himself. And because we are talking about very different things, we will only continue to argue in circles on this.

[blueerica]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

I think what Tom and Alex and Strangler Lewis have said really highlights the differences in our arguments. I think that MBC and I are talking about a personal interaction, a way to make a personal difference to people who are like Helms. I think the rest of you are talking about your very understandable anger at Helms himself. And because we are talking about very different things, we will only continue to argue in circles on this.

Well said.

[JWBear]

And I have been trying to defend myself from an implication that my continuing to speak out against Helms, and feeling no sadness at his death, makes me the same as him.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by JWBear

And I have been trying to defend myself from an implication that my continuing to speak out against Helms, and feeling no sadness at his death, makes me the same as him.

..and if by that you are referring to me (or think I said you are full of hatred) you are wrong-

Please explain then why it is hatred when Helms expressed it- but it is not when you do?

Was it because he had a larger stage from which to project those views?

Is hatred only measured by proportion to those who have access to it?

Was not an accusation that you are full of hate- or are like him in views- however, it seems to me this thread has been full of hatred for what Helms said and did- and I wonder- how is that hatred different? Because it speaks against his form of hatred with another?

I am in the camp with LSPE and MBC- hatred is an emotion I avoid. Hatred hurts me- not the person or view I am "hating".

I'm sorry if you interpreted that as me saying you are full of hate- it was not what I was trying to get across.

The question however- of why is one hate acceptable and one not stands- for me, hate is not acceptable in either form.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

... however, it seems to me this thread has been full of hatred for what Helms said and did- and I wonder- how is that hatred different? Because it speaks against his form of hatred with another?....

Not hate, Nephy. Dismay, disgust, and moral outrage, yes. Hate, no.

[JWBear]

Oh... by the way:

Originally Posted by Nephythys

..and if by that you are referring to me (or think I said you are full of hatred) you are wrong-

(A few pages earlier.)

Originally Posted by Nephythys

I suspect your hatred of the man has impaired your ability to read what I said....

For future reference... If you are going to claim you did not say a particular thing, make sure before hand that you actually didn't.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Oh... by the way:



(A few pages earlier.)



For future reference... If you are going to claim you did not say a particular thing, make sure before hand that you actually didn't.

Excuse me?

Where in THAT quote did I say you are FULL of hate? You think you posted some kind of "gotcha"?

In this thread it is not a mystery to suspect that your feelings for him are hatred- you corrected that- I however did NOT say you were LIKE HIM or FULL OF HATE.

So- just as YOU want to be seen accurately, you could do ME the same courtesy! Just as you do not want people ascribing an emotion to you that you say you are not feeling- I would expect you not to put words in my mouth- I said NOTHING of the sort.

...or is there some double standard here?

[wendybeth]

Oh, come on. To say that just because you didn't say 'full' along with 'hatred' JW is totally wrong is a bit ridiculous. (Besides, saying one is full of hatred is rather redundant- hatred is the kind of emotion that sort of fills up all available space). It's also silly- Helms is NOT worth any of us fighting over, ever. He stoked enough of this shyt in his lifetime, so let it die with him.



Can't we all just get along?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by JWBear

And I have been trying to defend myself from an implication that my continuing to speak out against Helms, and feeling no sadness at his death, makes me the same as him.

JW, I know you're not interested in debating this further - in fact, neither am I! But I wanted you to know that I was never trying to imply that you are the "same" as Helms. Of course I don't think that; you are a good man infuriated at the actions of someone who did much to belittle and harm a just cause. I failed in getting my point across if you thought I was trying to say you're "equally bad" or similar, and I'm terribly sorry if that was the case.

I will try to explain my perspective once more before I give up and declare that my brain is only expelling indistinguishable mud, heh. Because I want you to know that, in fact, I'm not trying to compare the two of you as people. Rather, I'm comparing the way that your words might be received. Words like "truly evil" might be received by his peers the way words like "weak, morally sick wretches" were received by ours. When we couch our arguments in (even justifiable) anger and absolutes, our words are often written off by those who need most to hear them. It does not make you the same kind of person at all, JW. But it may mean that if anyone says to people with his ignorance and misconceptions what has been said here, our words may be similarly received as his were by all of us. (Likely you have no intention - or maybe you don't particularly care, and that's certainly your prerogative and I would never think less of you.)

This does not mean that I think you should not express just how angry you are. I would be saddened if ANY of us weren't made angry by the things this man said. I was just trying to put all of our words in context for the bigger fight to change the minds of his surviving peers, which was perhaps brought up too soon in the midst of remembrance of his bile, his gall, his - yes - evil - behavior.