A Prop 8 challenge for swankers

[alphabassettgrrl]

I think the churches get around the "can't be in politics" thing by creating a separate organization to lobby for them, and which recieves donations in order to be politically active.

I was sad to see the list of 8 supporters here in Ventura county. ::sigh:: Including Lassen's health food store. Both Ventura and Camarillo locations. Pooey.

[Not Afraid]

This was written by an attorney on another board I post on. She was responding to the suggestion that this will go to the supreme court. I thought it was an excellent dissemination of the challenges we face in the future.

I wouldn't hold my breath. It took the strength and unity of the Thurgood Marshall Supreme Court era to strike down "separate but equal." We have never, and may never again, have that type of idelogical makeup in the Supreme Court.

In order for the Supreme Court to strike down the California Constitutional amendment, the Court would have to hold that, as a matter of federal law, under the U.S. Constitution, gays have equal rights, including the right to marry and adopt children. You are simply not going to get that type of ruling before the current Supreme Court justices.

If a lawsuit were brought today trying to challenge Prop 8 before the U.S. Supreme Court, I'd bet your chances are better than even that these 9 justices would uphold Proposition 8 under a 5-4 or 6-3 split decision.

Even with the Obama win and even if 2 Supreme Court justices retire and he gets to appoint 2 liberal justices, that really only gets us back to the current balance because the 2 justices most likely to retire are our most liberal justices. So you get back only to the balance we have today.

Now, there will be lawsuits, but I don't know how successful they will be. One could argue that you can't amend the Constitution to take away a fundamental right. However, there is nothing in the Constitution guaranteeing the right of gays to marry. So the California Supreme Court would be forced to weigh an implied right under the equal protection language against an express Constitutional provision banning gay marriage. That's a reach even for a highly liberal CA Supreme Court.

One could argue that Proposition 8 was really a Constitutional revision and not an amendment. Under the CA Constitution, you can amend the Constitution through a voter initiative passed by a simple majority, like we did with Proposition 8. However, in order to revise the Constitution, you need a 2/3 vote of the legislature during a constitutional convention. I believe a lawsuit on this issue was filed well before yesterday's election. That's also a tough one because there is very little guidance in the CA Constitution or in case law as to what constitutes an amendment versus a revision.

I wonder if the California people understand what they just did last night.

On the upside, however, I believe that the 19,000 or so same-sex marriages that took place between May and yesterday are valid and will continue to be recognized as legal, valid, and enforceable in California. You cannot apply Prop 8 retroactively, as that would be an ex post facto application of law and violative of Article 1, section 10 of the U.S. Constitution.

[Gemini Cricket]

Well, I just got back from the Prop 8 protest rally. It was amazing. Huge crowd. I was there with Cherny, iSm, LSPE, Tom, Jonathan and Gn2Dlnd. I had a great time. I vented some aggression, felt a sense of community and commonality with a bunch of like-minded folk and had a milkshake.

The highlight of the evening was taking part in blocking the traffic going down Santa Monica Blvd. We were at the SM Blvd and San Vicente intersection and stood there with signs chanting "Equal Rights" and "No on Hate, No on Eight". It was amazing. Civil disobedience. Love it. I love seeing people voice themselves and protest. I love my country.

The best part was that the mayor of WeHo was there so no one got busted. Nice!

I'll let the others talk about their signs. I loved them!

Thanks to all who showed up and protested. It was truly a wonderful night!



There is another rally tomorrow at 2pm at the LDS Temple on Santa Monica Blvd. I wish I could go, but I have to work.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

An interesting theory I heard today about why 8 won. The voter turnout this election was HUGE - especially among the Black and Latino voters who wanted Obama to be their next president. Black and Latinos also tend to be god-fearing religious people - Catholic, Baptist, etc.

I understand with my head that some oppressed minority groups empathize with different oppressed minorities ... while other oppressed groups like to pass on the hatred, loathing, humiliation and degradation down the line to the next oppressed minority lower on the sub-human food chain. Generally speaking, I've understood blacks to be in the latter category ... and generally speaking, I pity them for that.


But in my heart ... the thought of black folk going into the voting booth yesterday and, with elation, voting for the first black president ever - emblematic of a high point in their struggle for civil rights - - and within seconds - also casting their vote to TAKE AWAY the civil rights of another oppressed minority group that they have the balls to think of us inhuman and substandard - - in my heart, I cannot abide that.

It makes me ill. I want to puke.

An interesting thing I found out today is that SEVENTY PERCENT of black voters voted FOR PROP H8.


Um, pardon me, but FVCK THOSE NIKKERS! I'm really pissed. They disgust me.

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, anyway ... the rally was great.


Heheh, maybe I got a little riled up.



Tomorrow at 2 - - Spraying caffeinated coca-cola on the Mormon Temple Lawn!!

[CoasterMatt]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Tomorrow at 2 - - Spraying caffeinated coca-cola on the Mormon Temple Lawn!!

Before or after drinking it?

[innerSpaceman]

I guess just before.

Because if I have to pull out my dick near the Mormon Temple Lawn to protest their stance on gay marriage, I'm gonna wanna do something else with it besides peeing.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

This was written by an attorney on another board I post on. She was responding to the suggestion that this will go to the supreme court. I thought it was an excellent dissemination of the challenges we face in the future.

That pisses me off. I haven't been pissed until now because I had assumed it would be easily overturned by the courts - a no brainer. How in bloody hell could any court (in this day and age) uphold discrimination?!

NA, I really hope she is wrong. I have to. Because if I allow myself to believe what she wrote, I will become angry - so angry I could become physically violent. That is a place I do not want to go. Ever.


I'm very depressed now.

[CoasterMatt]

My father in law voted no on 8 - he's Catholic, but he voted for his fellow Americans, not for the church.

I can't wait to hear him talk about this topic again (as GC can attest, he's quite the talker).

[innerSpaceman]

I think that lawyer is being awful pessimistic.

The matter is going to go before the very court that said Marriage Rights are a fundamental constitution right. Case law or no, I don't think they'll have much problem determining the vote was an improper revision of the Constitution.

Furthermore, liberal court or no .... courts don't like their jurisdiction being undermined, and this court won't take kindly to this attempted end-run around their historic civil rights ruling.

There may not be guiding precedent, but the California Supreme Court has every motivation and reason to find some way find Proposition 8 a revision and not an amendment ... and thus invalidate it.



This would NOT be a major victory to me. This was much more important than gay marriage rights in California. Just as America once was to the world, California is a beacon of progress and liberty to the rest of the nation. Even while they mock us, they always end up following our lead toward a more enlightened future.

But gay rights by judicial fiat is a far cry from gay rights by the will of the voters. Even if those rights are reaffirmed by the court, it's not the kind of fire that will spread throughout the country.

A great opportunity has been lost.


There were no plans of action voiced at tonight's rally, to the great disappointment of many. I happen to think Goonie's plan to start straight away on a countervailing ballot initiative is the way to go. It shouldn't be too hard to get the necessary signatures to put this on the ballot in 2 years if we strike while the iron is hot.