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Old 03-23-2010, 11:13 AM   #1
sleepyjeff
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Originally Posted by Not Afraid View Post
Leo, do you feel the same way about drivers being required to purchase insurance?
1) One can opt not to drive......

2) The requirement for car insurance is more about protecting the other drivers on the road.......protection for yourself is usually optional(at least it is in my state).

3) Why is it liberals(and I say that lovingly as per your earlier statements ) point out the places where government has totally swirled itself into our lives as proof that more encroachments won't hurt? To me this is like saying "well, I've already polished off a tray of lasagna, half a loaf of french bread, a whole banana cream pie, and 3 milkshakes, why not go to taco bell for 4th meal?"
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:15 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
3) Why is it liberals(and I say that lovingly as per your earlier statements ) point out the places where government has totally swirled itself into our lives as proof that more encroachments won't hurt? To me this is like saying "well, I've already polished off a tray of lasagna, half a loaf of french bread, a whole banana cream pie, and 3 milkshakes, why not go to taco bell for 4th meal?"
Let me flip that. Why do conservatives insist that any government program = a direct path to a totalitarian regime that will strip you of all private property and liberties?
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:35 AM   #3
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Let me flip that. Why do conservatives insist that any government program = a direct path to a totalitarian regime that will strip you of all private property and liberties?
That's a fair question......I suppose it's because we don't see government reigning itself in....so when it is moving in the direction of totalitarianism we get a little nervous.

Are we wrong? Did we or did we not lose liberties today? Were our rights to our property expanded or contracted today? At what point would you say government has gone too far?
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:47 AM   #4
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Are we wrong? Did we or did we not lose liberties today? Were our rights to our property expanded or contracted today? At what point would you say government has gone too far?
At the point when the net benefit is outweighed by the net detriment.

As for questions of liberty - while I value financial liberty to a degree, I do not value it to the degree I value liberties that are independent of money. Rights to everyone's life, freedom, expression et. al. take a back seat to the right to your dollar. Now, I happen to also think that preservation of many of the rights that I do consider essential are aided by preserving the right to private property. But given the choice between instituting something that I think preserves a more crucial right (in this case, the right for everyone to have the opportunity to maintain their health regardless of financial status) vs. preserving some incremental monetary rights, I will almost always choose the former.
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Old 03-23-2010, 12:05 PM   #5
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At the point when the net benefit is outweighed by the net detriment.

As for questions of liberty - while I value financial liberty to a degree, I do not value it to the degree I value liberties that are independent of money. Rights to everyone's life, freedom, expression et. al. take a back seat to the right to your dollar. Now, I happen to also think that preservation of many of the rights that I do consider essential are aided by preserving the right to private property. But given the choice between instituting something that I think preserves a more crucial right (in this case, the right for everyone to have the opportunity to maintain their health regardless of financial status) vs. preserving some incremental monetary rights, I will almost always choose the former.
Good answer but the "dollar" is not just a dollar....it represents my labor....replace the word "dollar" with labor and then read your paragraph again.
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Old 03-23-2010, 12:58 PM   #6
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Good answer but the "dollar" is not just a dollar....it represents my labor....replace the word "dollar" with labor and then read your paragraph again.
Doesn't change my stance, seeing as I disagree with the premise. A dollar can be exchanged for labor. It is not however labor. It doesn't represent labor. A dollar is an arbitrary thing. It's a immensely useful arbitrary thing, but it is fundamentally nothing. It exists only because we say it exists, it has value only because we say it has value.

But that's getting more philosophical than necessary. More concrete and to the point, I do not find it unreasonable to say, "As long as you are part of this society, you are required to share the responsibility of things that ensure the continued viability of this society." What that share is can be argued ad-nauseum, but as Alex said, unless you are truly arguing for absolute libertarian rule (hope you know a good asphalt contractor, or a mechanic who specializes in rebuilding suspensions), simply crying, "You're taking my liberty!" is an empty argument. It's already been agreed by our society that we're okay with "infringing" on that kind of liberty to some degree. We may draw the line at different places, but declaring "It's anti-freedom, and therefore wrong!" is a flawed place to be arguing from unless you're prepared to argue that ALL services that require monetary collection from citizens are equally wrong.
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Old 03-23-2010, 01:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by sleepyjeff View Post
Are we wrong? Did we or did we not lose liberties today? Were our rights to our property expanded or contracted today? At what point would you say government has gone too far?
If you are defining "property" as "money" then I would have to say that since I will now apparently qualify for a rebate on my (ex-husband's) employer contracted, exorbitantly (yet very comprehensive) priced insurance, then my personal rights (liberty) were expanded today.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:33 AM   #8
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1) One can opt not to drive......
And take federal and state subsidized public transit instead.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:36 AM   #9
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And take federal and state subsidized public transit instead.
Only because they have forced the private transit companies out of business.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:44 AM   #10
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Only because they have forced the private transit companies out of business.
Nonsense, if they're so rich from not paying for car insurance then the presumption is that they can afford to hire a cab.

It'll be a false presumption, but that's how the logic goes.
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