HCR Passes

[Alex]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

And it seems to me the mandate to buy private insurance is thankfully toothless, because I object to it, too - and would expect it to be overturned on constitutional grounds.

Perhaps, but if the mandate is unconstitutional then it doesn't matter how toothless it is, it'll still be unconstitutional and subject to being stricken.

And if there is no mandate then not allowing insurance to exclude people from the pool due to pre-existing condition is not sustainable. One without the other means the incentive then is to not pay for any insurance until you get sick then pay for insurance only so long as it takes to not need the coverage at the moment any longer and repeat as necessary.

And that is true regardless of whether the insurance is private or provided by the government. Which is why Medicare has a very strongly enforced mandate that charges people that won't even be regularly eligible to benefit for another 40 years.

[€uroMeinke]

Can someone explain to me why socialism is bad? I suspect it's all in how one defines socialism but I don't get the assumed evil behind that term.

[scaeagles]

I will go with just a few of the items that I find incredibly bothersome.

I do not and cannot support being forced or forcing anyone to buy anything.

Allowing those that have not purchased the insurance (and therefore pay whatever fines) to become sick and then opt in undermines what insurance really is.

I believe the penalties put in place on business related to insurance costs will inhibit hiring because it increases the cost of employment (or will lower the salary paid to offset the increased cost of employment). There are a wide variety of different aspects in this as far as what this does to employer choices in hiring practices.

Obama's promised executive order banning federal funding of abortions is a complete farce and will not stand, and he knows it, and offered oit only to get a few votes (thought we were changing how Washington functioned....didn't Obama say he wouldn't do these types of things, and that it was the job of Congress to pass laws and his job to sign them? He was quite critical of Bush for doing things like this.).

The bill is deemed as deficit neutral by the CBO, but that includes 10 years of revenue collection and only six or seven years of outlays. The CBO also estimates that insurance rates in the individual market would be 10-13 higher in 2016 than they would be wothout passage, so there doesn't seem to be any cost control advantages.

38 states are already planning lawsuits related to states rights (I suppose this isn't an objection, just a point about the overwhelming concerns about the constitutionality of various aspects included).

There is a marriage penalty, as there is more financial assistance for non married couples that married couples. Why the inequity?

Now....have I read the bill? No. I have not. Don't have the time, as I would figure not many average Americans have time to read 2700 page legislation. I'm sure I could go to several sources and find more to list. That was a few off the top of my head (and I think Alex had mentioned a couple), and a few more I knew the basics of but did 10 minutes of reading to become a bit more knowledgable.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I do not and cannot support being forced or forcing anyone to buy anything.

Would you be ok with it if people weren't forced to buy anything but it was ok to kick them out of the emergency room if they hadn't bought insurance and don't have money to pay for treatment?

I'm ok with it if we want to go that way (but am perhaps biased by the fact that I am, by most standards, borderline rich). But it will never happen politically (I seem tor recall that Republicans are now the bodyguards for Medicare, insurance that I have no ability to opt out of short of refusing all employment), so it is a bit of a pipe dream.

Obama's promised executive order banning federal funding of abortions is a complete farce and will not stand, and he knows it, and offered oit only to get a few votes (thought we were changing how Washington functioned....didn't Obama say he wouldn't do these types of things, and that it was the job of Congress to pass laws and his job to sign them? He was quite critical of Bush for doing things like this.).

I'm not sure why the executive order "will not stand." All it does is say "Hyde applies and this bill does nothing to change it." He can repeal it the next day and it will still be true that the bill does not to federally fund abortions (but again I am biased since I think that to the extent that health care coverage is federally funded it should cover abortion as well.)

The bill is deemed as deficit neutral by the CBO, but that includes 10 years of revenue collection and only six or seven years of outlays.

It's not quite that simple (and while the bill just passed is essentially deficit neutral, combined with the reconciliation bill is it strongly deficit positive). Many programs kick in earlier than four years from now and some revenues don't kick in immediately. The estimate is that only 10% of the 10-year revenue will be collected in the first four years while 1% of the cost happens in the first four years. So yes, there is truth to this but is hardly the 40%/60% split the statement implies. More details on this one here.

Also, it doesn't deal with the CBO estimate that in the second 10 years (when both revenues and expenses will be fully in place) $1.2 trillion would be saved.

Of course, CBO numbers are always soft because they're evaluating bills on the assumption that Congress won't muck with things in the future and that's not really ever true. But still, the CBO is the organization both sides agree to use and I think it is safe to say that if the CBO has forecast a deficit increase that then Republicans would have viewed it as sacrosanct.

The CBO also estimates that insurance rates in the individual market would be 10-13 higher in 2016 than they would be wothout passage, so there doesn't seem to be any cost control advantages.

That is the estimate for 3590 only (not accounting for changes in the reconciliation bill) and is the unsubsidized price. The primary reason that the cost is higher is simply because the amount of coverage will be significnatly higher (and not simply because it will be more expensive to buy the exact same thing). For subsidized purchasers the price of insurance will be 56%-59% lower (using the same CBO report) than if no law had been passed. The full CBO report from last November here (the 56%-59% number on page 8).

There is a marriage penalty, as there is more financial assistance for non married couples that married couples. Why the inequity?

To balance the unmarriage penalty that exists for unmarried couples who do not get the legal protections that married couples do? Or we could look at it as the "Stay at Home Mom" Bonus.

But it is there, just as it is almost everywhere. As dual high income earners, Lani and I are generally screwed on any program.


Don't expect any responses to change any minds, just providing information since I'm apparently one of the few who has time and inclination to read things.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I do not and cannot support being forced or forcing anyone to buy anything.

With this I agree to some degree. Which is why what I really support is single-payer. Make it a government supplied service, not a mandated purchase. We don't need to subscribe to fire department service, why do I need to subscribe to this?

Unfortunately that's not politically viable right now. And it never will be politically viable to go from near-zero government supplied medical coverage to truly universal. My hope is that this is the first awkward step in that direction. That, seeing that the country hasn't fallen apart, Stalin hasn't risen from the grave, and grandma isn't being sent to the gas chamber because her prescriptions are getting costly, the electorate will eventually be able to see beyond the b.s. stigma associated with a "socialist" program and realize that, if we can agree that there's a net benefit to doing so, the best way to do it is to dump the inefficiency of this hybrid system and reap the benefit of a truly government-supplied system.

[Not Afraid]

Leo, do you feel the same way about drivers being required to purchase insurance?

[Alex]

Just a little pre-emption.

Al Sharpton did not call Obama a socialist. He did not call Health Care Reform socialism.

Sean Hannity mislead his audience.

[blueerica]

Originally Posted by Alex

Would you be ok with it if people weren't forced to buy anything but it was ok to kick them out of the emergency room if they hadn't bought insurance and don't have money to pay for treatment?

Being a frequent visitor to the ER (not as the patient), I've thought about this as we fork over our credit card for our 'co-pay'.

Don't expect any responses to change any minds, just providing information since I'm apparently one of the few who has time and inclination to read things.

And I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Alex

Just a little pre-emption.

Al Sharpton did not call Obama a socialist. He did not call Health Care Reform socialism.

Sean Hannity mislead his audience.

I'm not sure if this is in response to Chris' post, but we've been discussing Socialism quite a bit in these parts. A LOT of people have been throwing around the "socialism" moniker like it is the end of everything.

I have this reaction to certain "so called evil" lables: liberal and socialism being two common ones at the moment. It makes me want to embrace the terms and lovingly use them. (It was great to do with with the word "Pussy" recently.)

[Alex]

No, not a response to Chris. Just pre-emption of something I've seen in a couple other places with people saying "If even Al Sharpton says Obama/HCR is socialist then it makes you wonder..."

That's a misrepresentation of what he said so I figured I'd try to trigger some investigation before anybody said it here (if indeed it would have happened).