WTF Stories of the Week

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Okay, I almost didn't post this because it such a "me too" post, but I gotta chime in that I am with Moonie on this one.

And GD's follow-up as well.

Then you too are missing the point.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Then you too are missing the point.

No I'm not. I just disagree with some of it.

We're on the same side of the fence on the fact that there are bigots out there.

But I disagree with your "Semantic pedantry" position.

Why must people who support gay rights (which I believe almost every active poster on this board is) be subject to attack for being a breeder?

That I hold my wife's hand in public or refer to my wife in conversation, etc. does not mean I am flaunting it. I am not going to suppress who I am.

I am sorry that homosexuals are attacked (from glares to physical violence) for the simple displays of affection in public that heterosexuals can enjoy. I will be the first person to come to your defense when a bigot makes him/herself known (I've even yelled at a family member for such bigotry). But don't berate me for the fact that I can and don't expect me to stop.

Originally Posted by JWBear

You, personally, are not to blame for the double standard. I never said that. All I ask of anyone is to keep in mind that it exists, and to not feed into it.

Do you really think that anyone here (on LoT) does otherwise? I've seen no evidence of it.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

I am sorry that homosexuals are attacked (from glares to physical violence) for the simple displays of affection in public that heterosexuals can enjoy. I will be the first person to come to your defense when a bigot makes him/herself known (I've even yelled at a family member for such bigotry). But don't berate me for the fact that I can and don't expect me to stop.

And, this is the same root of the issue we discussed much earlier involving recognition of marriage.

I was comparing this recently to other things that one "cannot" do and how far friends and loved ones should be expected to go to be "supportive". I'm a sober alcoholic. I don't drink alcohol at all. However, many of my friends and my husband does. Would I expect them to not drink around me because I'm sober? Heck no! I expect them to not offer me a drink, but the issue is mine and it's up to me to not drink no matter WHAT circumstances surround me.

I know many couples where one is a vegetarian and the other is a meatatarian. Is one supposed to completely change their preferred diet to match the other one? Heck no.

People are free to do what they want in life (legally) and deal with the consequences of their choices. Depending on others to "get on your bandwagon" or "approve of your choice" or "change their own lives to fit the ideals of others" are pretty fu<ked up IMHO.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

No I'm not. I just disagree with some of it.

We're on the same side of the fence on the fact that there are bigots out there.

But I disagree with your "Semantic pedantry" position.

Why must people who support gay rights (which I believe almost every active poster on this board is) be subject to attack for being a breeder?

That I hold my wife's hand in public or refer to my wife in conversation, etc. does not mean I am flaunting it. I am not going to suppress who I am.

I am sorry that homosexuals are attacked (from glares to physical violence) for the simple displays of affection in public that heterosexuals can enjoy. I will be the first person to come to your defense when a bigot makes him/herself known (I've even yelled at a family member for such bigotry). But don't berate me for the fact that I can and don't expect me to stop.

Do you really think that anyone here (on LoT) does otherwise? I've seen no evidence of it.

Please re-read my posts, and then quote for me where I attacked anyone or asked them to stop displaying any references to their sexuality. Please. Anyone?

All I am trying to do is point out that straight people display their sexuality in numerous ways - day in and day out - whether they realize it or not. And that any attempt by gay people to display their sexuality in a similar manner is looked on by society as inappropriate. A double standard.

That, and only that, is my point. If you read anything else in what I said, then you are missing the point – spectacularly.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Do you really think that is the only way in which you call attention to your sexuality? I don’t walk around saying, "Hi, I'm gay", but I have held Bill’s hand in public; and gotten angry and disgusted looks for it. How about you and CP? Not so much, I expect.

Originally Posted by JWBear

Then you too are missing the point.

And you've missed my point. No, I don't think there is only one way that people glean sexuality. My POINT is that, being the minority, the cues that homosexuals end up by necessity using to call attention to their sexuality are by comparison, overt, explicit, and "in your face" because, by definition, they are different than what we see 90% of the time.

Even if same sex marriage becomes legal and commonplace among same sex couples, a man saying, "This is my husband" is going to stand out as "not normal" because 90% of men don't have husbands.

That's my only point. As I said, and Moonliner said, and Betty said, we still consider XBox's reaction wrong. Considering those kinds of overt declarations "inappropriate" is wrong. But no amount of social acceptance is going to change the fact that a large majority of people are heterosexual, that assuming heterosexuality is a rational default, and that idenfying yourself as homosexual is going to remain a conspicuous departure from "normal" (and by "normal" I mean "commonplace") conversation.

ETA: Of course, that's why the media can hold such power. It's a way to artificially skew that ratio higher so that it DOES become more commonplace.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

And you've missed my point. No, I don't think there is only one way that people glean sexuality. My POINT is that, being the minority, the cuse that homosexuals end up by necessity using to call attention to their sexuality are by comparison, overt, explicit, and "in your face" because, by definition, they are different than what we see 90% of the time.

Even if same sex marriage becomes legal and commonplace among same sex couples, a man saying, "This is my husband" is going to stand out as "not normal" because 90% of men don't have husbands.

That's my only point. As I said, and Moonliner said, and Betty said, we still consider XBox's reaction wrong. Considering those kinds of overt declarations "inappropriate" is wrong. But no amount of social acceptance is going to change the fact that a large majority of people are heterosexual, that assuming heterosexuality is a rational default, and that idenfying yourself as homosexual is going to remain a conspicuous departure from "normal" (and by "normal" I mean "commonplace") conversation.

Normal is relative. To me, a same sex couple holding hands is not, and should not be "overt, explicit, and "in your face"". To me, it is normal. No different than an opposite sex couple doing the same thing.

But again, beside the point. What I object to is that same opposite sex couple claiming that they are not displaying their sexuality when they hold hands, but then tells me I am flaunting mine when I hold hands with my boyfriend. Can you not see the double standard there?

To me, it's like telling blacks that we whites fully support their equal rights as human beings, but then insist they cover up their dark skin because it's not "normal", and is "flaunting" their race.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

But to play a bit of devils advocate for a moment, because heterosexuality is the overwhelming majority, gays do end up having to be more overt about their "declarations" of their sexuality. If a straight man is hanging out in a typical bar, hoping to perhaps meet a prospective dating partner, they don't need to do anything in particular to attract the attention of said prospective partners. Whereas a homosexual man is likely to do something "out of the ordinary" to actively identify themselves as homosexual to be noticeable to their set of prospective targets.

People are assumed hetero by default, if someone wants to be quickly recognized as homosexual, it's going to take some sort of overt display.

This is just the reality of the fact that you're only about 10% of the population. It's a necessity of the circumstances.

That may be true, but I wasn’t talking about that kind of a situation. I was referring to everyday life. And implicit in your scenario is the same assumption that the only reason anyone would want to be open about being gay is for the purpose of eliciting sex.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Afterall, wouldn't people look at someone who walks around saying, "Hi, I'm straight" pretty funny?

Do you really think that is the only way in which you call attention to your sexuality? I don’t walk around saying, "Hi, I'm gay", but I have held Bill’s hand in public; and gotten angry and disgusted looks for it. How about you and CP? Not so much, I expect.

[Betty]

JWBear - what do you want me to say?

It's not my fault I can talk about my spouse. I agreed with you that you should be able to. I voted no on 8. I got into arguments... er discussions at work over the subject with coworkers. I had heart to heart talks with my kids because her friends were saying Yes on 8 and I wanted her to understand what that really meant - and in the end - she actually agreed with me. (and for my 14 year old to agree with me on something - well - it feels like an accomplishment sometimes.)

Would you prefer I not discuss my spouse? I have never expressed that you shouldn't do the same. I think you should! And I'm sorry that people have made you feel badly about doing so.

I am not society as a whole but it sure feels like you're making this double standard all my fault.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Betty

JWBear - what do you want me to say?

It's not my fault I can talk about my spouse. I agreed with you that you should be able to. I voted no on 8. I got into arguments... er discussions at work over the subject with coworkers. I had heart to heart talks with my kids because her friends were saying Yes on 8 and I wanted her to understand what that really meant - and in the end - she actually agreed with me. (and for my 14 year old to agree with me on something - well - it feels like an accomplishment sometimes.)

Would you prefer I not discuss my spouse? I have never expressed that you shouldn't do the same. I think you should! And I'm sorry that people have made you feel badly about doing so.

I am not society as a whole but it sure feels like you're making this double standard all my fault.

You’re post pushed one of my buttons, and I apologize.

I would never expect to not talk about your husband. But please keep in mind that, when you do, you are bringing up your sexuality. It’s a good thing, and more power to you.

You, personally, are not to blame for the double standard. I never said that. All I ask of anyone is to keep in mind that it exists, and to not feed into it.

[Strangler Lewis]

I still think the larger point is being missed: that all online gaming is, sub silentio, gay. Or, perhaps more aptly, like many internet interactions, it is about anonymous intimacy. I suspect many of the gamers would be upset to learn that the person who blew them through the glory hole was a man, and they wouldn't want a gay guy in their wrestling club. No different here.