Societal norms, the Moral Majority and a rant that feels so good

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

To refrain from judging is to have a life with no boundaries.

Is it wrong to stop hanging out with Bob because he's cheating on his wife? That's judgement. Is it wrong to not let your son spend the night at Greg's house, because Greg sells pot at school? That's judgement.

The only right way, in my opinion, to judge private behavior in others is through personal behavior of your own. There are two ways to judge public behavior in others: either you behave as you would with private behavior or society collectively decide on civil punishment (as we do with murder, rape, burglary, etc.). My personal libertarian view is that we've expanded societal civil punishment beyond its useful boundaries not just in the public sphere but into the private sphere where it doesn't belong at all.

But I have a strong moral ethic (just not a standard one) and I am constantly judging others by it and choose not to associate with those who fall too far from it. To not judge is to say that there is no such thing as right and wrong. I just say that not everything is a matter of right and wrong.

I don't know what the marital structure is in the OP, so I have no idea whether I think it falls into the category of something I would judge. But probably not.

You're right- perhaps I should have said "refrain from articulating certain types of judgements", which is something I do all the time. I can't help but make judgements, but I can keep quiet about them if I think it is crass, rude, impolite, etc, to pronounce them. I won't let Tori listen to Britteny Spears, as I consider her an ignorant skank, but I told Tori it's because she is too young to hear her music. Same thing when I deem someone stupid- I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, and when I am proved right I simply maneuver away from them so I don't have to be irritated all the time- I don't tell them that I think they are stupid, though.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Crystal

The people we've had a falling out with have been friends for many years. The wife became aware of my bi-sexuality, something she heard through the grapevine, and now has a need to put me down and treat me as though I am immoral. She feels the need to "save" me and told me I will regret the choices I have made in my personal life. Personally, I feel it really is none of her business, but because we have been friends for so long, it is really difficult to get past this. She is judging mine and SacTowns entire relationship on this one thing that she disapproves of.

I suspect that most of what is upsetting about this is that these people who are your friends have suddenly changed their view of the two of you and yuo have seemingly lost a friend. This change in view was based on a rumour/detail/whatever that appears to be true. If her moral line of demarcation (because of religious/personal/whatever beliefs) indicates that bi-sexuality is unacceptable to her/them (not sure how much the husband was involved), then that is her choice. If she believes that this act (it may be more than the bi-sexuality - it may be more the lack of monogamy in the marriage; many people believe that "open marriages" do not work) means that she does not want to associate with you, then that is her prerogative. Yes, it hurts and yes, it sucks. But her choice is hers to make. The way she acted (preachy, etc.) may have been pretty crappy, but would you rather she say these things to your face or behind your back?

I am not saying this to go against the nature of what happened (you and Sac are wonderful people and you have great kids, so you must be good parents), but to just to look at the whole picture. I am sorry that this person has these narrow views and was compelled to thrust them in your face. I were in your shoes, I am not sure I would WANT such a closed minded-person as a friend!

I am very sorry for the two of you and the shiity situation!

Originally Posted by Crystal

SacTown, baby, I Love You!

Does Mickey Lumbo know about this?

[Name]

I think their just jealous......

[Capt Jack]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Perhaps the reason why we see so few examples of correct judging is that the only correct way to do so is to refrain from doing so.


Did that make any sense?

yup. while Im not terribly religious, there is one quote Ive learned to live by

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Most who do judge others with abandon are loathe to have the mirror held up to them as they're afraid of what they'll see. Its just sooo much easier to cast judgement on someone else than to look at ones self objectively and critique self first, others second. A great many people I think simply cant. Others wont.

still others have no clue what Im talking about.
I think Im in that last group.

[scaeagles]

I actually have always felt a more appropriate saying regarding this is regarding pointing out the splinter in another's eye while ignoring the log in your own.

I have always felt that when talking about "judging", at least in a biblical sense, is in reference to final judgement on salvation or eternal damnation. I think judging is something everyone does in every situation - making an analysis based on the facts and personal upbringing and opinion and making a judgement about it.

If I think what someone else is doing is a problem, unless life or limb is at stake, who am I to tell the person what they are doing is wrong?

It also depends on the relationship. I coach HS basketball (and today s the happiest day of the year - the first practice of the season is today!) and frequently offer advice or value judgements to my players. It's not just coaching, it's mentoring young men.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Most who do judge others with abandon are loathe to have the mirror held up to them as they're afraid of what they'll see. Its just sooo much easier to cast judgement on someone else than to look at ones self objectively and critique self first, others second. A great many people I think simply cant. Others wont.

Actually, for the most part, I usually am harshest on those how are going in the same bad route I traveled once. I've looked in the mirror, was horrified of what I saw and changed my ways. It hurts to see others I care about taking the same distructive path. And, sometimes, I simply don't want to be a witness to something I can't do anything about.

As for as other people judging me, once in a while they are spot-on and I thank them for pointing those things out. Other times, eh, they're just delusional.

[SacTown Chronic]

Alex nailed it with his comment about society judging people's private lives instead of their public lives. By all means judge me by my contribution, or lack thereof, to society. But stay the hell out of my bedroom (unless you've been invited).

My anger stemmed from Crystal's pain -- I'm simple, and overly protective, that way. She's hurt because a so-called friend decided to focus on the one detail that is none of her business while ignoring all the wonderful things that make Crystal, well, Crystal. And the friend telling Crystal that our children will no longer be socializing with her children because of Crystal's sexual orientation was the cherry on a very bitter sundae.

But, my swanky friends, venting here was just what the doctor ordered, Praise Allah. My anger has been replaced with sadness. And the sadness is starting to fade. As Kevin said, mayhap this person is not the kind of friend Crystal needs.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

But, my swanky friends, venting here was just what the doctor ordered, Praise Allah.

Sac, I've been meaning to tell you that Islam is not the way......

[SacTown Chronic]

Mohammed The Prophet told me you'd say that, scaeagles.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

It's not just coaching, it's mentoring young men.

Nope, not going to touch it.