Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegience?

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Pirate Bill

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything.

As I prepare to do my taxes I couldn't agree more!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Pirate Bill

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything.

That's the difficultly. In compulsory education the opposite is true. Students are forced to participate in all kinds of things. And it isn't surprising that individual teachers lose track of the line (I stand by my assumption that there aren't many schools, at the administrative level, that aren't aware of the SC rulings on this) separating what can be forced from that which can't.

And that is what I assume happened here from what was described in the video. It wasn't made clear very well whether she was forced to recite or to simply stand while the other students did so (the stand question is much less settled). Then the school backed off and she was allowed to do what she wanted.

I would assume that the school administration (at the district level probably) eventually got enough wind of it all to say "knock it off" to the teacher/principal.

Plus, knowing how overly dramatic my fellow high school students behaved in the face of administrative slights (both perceived and real), I wouldn't be surprised that the events were significantly exaggerated in this student's telling of things.

[Not Afraid]

I should never have been forced to participate in PE.

[cirquelover]

I hated PE and trying to climb that stupid rope to the top of the gym. They might as well have asked me to climb MT Everest! I prefered High School PE, at least then I could do conditioning class, instead of the other dumb options.

[Alex]

Surprisingly, I loved PE (surprising because I avoided pretty much every non history, not science class I could). Though I've never in my life seen a school gym with a rope climb other than on TV or in movies. I suffered the semi-annual embarrassment of not being able to do a single pull-up but loved the rest of it.

[scaeagles]

Such is the problem with government run schools. In private schools, while there are certain educational requirements that must be meant in terms of math, history, language (all of which are fine), the compulsory stuff is decided by the board of directors (at least where my kids go), and if we don't like it, we can leave. There is a sort of customer satisfaction that comes into play.

And pullups are a scam, Alex. I doubt many NFL linemen can do a single pull up. That's all about body type. Bigger people can rarely do them. I can bench well over my weight but can't do pullups.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Alex

Though I've never in my life seen a school gym with a rope climb other than on TV or in movies.

My jr. high did, but they were rarely used. 99% of the time they were tied up out of reach. We did, however, have metal climbing poles outside which served essentially the same purpose. I was always good at that, as well as pullups. And situps. The only thing I really hated in PE was the dreaded sit-and-reach. I've always been painfully inflexible.

[mousepod]

We had the rope. I don't think I ever made it more than a couple of feet. Horrible.

As far as the Pledge goes, it ranks a big "whatever" from me. We did it. Nobody ever explained what it meant. There was no other patriotic "must-dos". I think it was just a way for teachers to get our attention at the beginning of class.

As an adult, I understand the meaning. But I've probably been in less than a dozen situations as an adult where the Pledge was recited.

[Alex]

Yeah, I've been trying to think of the last time I was in a situation where it was done. The only time since college I can think of is when I attended the citizenship ceremony of a friend a few years ago.

Much more common, of course, would be the national anthem and growing up the general rule (as a JW) was that if everybody was singing to stand respectfully and remain silent (not putting hand over heart) and if everybody was just standing to remain seated and respectfully silent.

Now I stand because of peer pressure (and because while it is unlikely why risk a confrontation with some drunk asshole at a baseball game) but I do not put my hand over my heart and do not sing.

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Alex

Yeah, I've been trying to think of the last time I was in a situation where it was done. The only time since college I can think of is when I attended the citizenship ceremony of a friend a few years ago.

Much more common, of course, would be the national anthem and growing up the general rule (as a JW) was that if everybody was singing to stand respectfully and remain silent (not putting hand over heart) and if everybody was just standing to remain seated and respectfully silent.

Now I stand because of peer pressure (and because while it is unlikely why risk a confrontation with some drunk asshole at a baseball game) but I do not put my hand over my heart and do not sing.

I was thinking about the last time I said the pledge, and I'm pretty sure it was at my mom's citizenship ceremony 12 years ago. Of course I hear the National Anthem several times a week. Sometimes I sing, sometimes I don't. It's never as powerful as when the entire venue is singing during the playoffs (which I doubt we'll be seeing this year). That includes when the Marines show up to present colors and sing.