The "Inception" Thread

[innerSpaceman]

Well, the concept of limbo as stated and then as show were radically different.

It was said that if you spent an inordinate of time in limbo, your brain would melt. I guess they were talking about real time as opposed to limbo time, but both Cobb and Saito spent lifetimes in limbo without any brain-melt on return to "reality."


How, in fact, did Cobb escape from Limbo? I forget, if it was told? I know it was told how Mal broke out, but I forget that, too. I suppose if Mal and Cobb were only in limbo for a few weeks of their real life, no brain melt would be necessary. Of course, water would be.

If someone spends 50 years in limbo, how long is that in real time? There must be some Inception Dream Time Calculator up on the internet somewhere, no?

[mousepod]

Initially, Mal and Cobb broke out of limbo by committing suicide by train, if I remember correctly. The same train that plows through the city in Fischer's dream.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm not the only one who love's Page's line, "So who's subconscious are we in now?"

Yeah, if Arthur is the dreamer of the hotel level, then his absence in the On Her Majesty's Secret Service level means that the dreamer doesn't need to be in the dream.

Of course, since the hotel level was a dream of Fischer, aren't all subsequent levels his dream regardless?


And wait a minute, Arthur is not the dreamer of the hotel level, is he? Ok, I need a chart!

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by mousepod

Initially, Mal and Cobb broke out of limbo by committing suicide by train, if I remember correctly. The same train that plows through the city in Fischer's dream.

Ah, thanks.

So is that "incantation" she says before being train-killed later repeated by "her" as a trigger to wake people up?


I can't afford to see the film again. When does it come out on DVD?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by mousepod

Good point. I completely forgot about that. So the absence of Cobb from any scene isn't a plot hole at all. Nice.

True, but then the absence of the dreamer from a particular scene becomes the new plothole. For example, in the snow level, action is shown taking place in at least three distinct locations at the same time. No one person was present for everything shown.

I'm fairly certain that they present Miles as Mal's father, not Cobb's. Perhaps he's the one who is trying to get Cobb to admit that he performed inception on his daughter.

That's possible, I thought he was Cobb's father but may have missed/forgot something. Steve, since you've seen it twice do you recall anything explicit one way or the other?

What if Mal isn't dead, but in some kind of permanent dream state? If she was the dreamer, that might explain why Cobb uses her totem - and why her "secret" was the totem itself.

Agreed, completely possible truth. But not one, I think, with any evidence in the movie itself.

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

It was said that if you spent an inordinate of time in limbo, your brain would melt. I guess they were talking about real time as opposed to limbo time, but both Cobb and Saito spent lifetimes in limbo without any brain-melt on return to "reality."

They also spent times in constructed realities within Limbo. It was said that Limbo was unconstructed empty dreamspace or whatever you yourself created in it. I took melting to meant that you'd go crazy from a near-eterinity in sensory deprivation.

How, in fact, did Cobb escape from Limbo? I forget, if it was told?

The first time? He put his head down on the train tracks with Mal. The second time, if he did escape, presumably he and Saito killed themselves.

I suppose if Mal and Cobb were only in limbo for a few weeks of their real life, no brain melt would be necessary.

Presumably they were in limbo for only a few hours at most in real time. During the limbo explanation it was shown several times that they were lying on their living room floor (same house as he returns to at the end) dreaming. Presumably somebody would have found them and awoken them if they'd been out for much longer than that (having kids and all).

[Alex]

My understanding is the levels were:

Yusef is dreaming the city streets level. This is why he has to stay behind when they go deeper (otherwise nobody would be awake in that level for the kick).

Arthur is dreaming the hotel level. This is why he has to stay behind when they go deeper (otherwise nobody would be awake in that level for the kick). And this, I think creates, a problem if Arthur is also the dreamer of the "reality" level.

Eames is dreaming the snow level (which is why he is the only living team member on that level by the time of the kick, Cobb and Ariadne having gone deeper into Limbo and Saito and Fischer both having died into Limbo).

Everybody in Limbo is independently dreaming of Limbo but it is apparently a shared spiritual plane so all limbos are somehow connected (so Cobb was able to get from his part of Limbo to Saito's at the end).

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Alex

True, but then the absence of the dreamer from a particular scene becomes the new plothole. For example, in the snow level, action is shown taking place in at least three distinct locations at the same time. No one person was present for everything shown.

How is this a new plothole? I thought we solved a slew of plotholes by positing that dreamers needn't be present in all scenes of their own dreams. As you point out, this was clearly true of the snow level - so it's set up as the film's own internal logic - - and thus my theory of Cobb as the dreamer of the entire shibang holds water. Heck, even mousepod's theory of Mal as the dreamer works in this scenario.

Originally Posted by Alex

That's possible, I thought he was Cobb's father but may have missed/forgot something. Steve, since you've seen it twice do you recall anything explicit one way or the other?

Ha! Haven't you realized yet that, though I've seen it twice, I'm not retaining as many details as people who barely sat through the trailer?

But, no, I don't recall any dialogue one way or the other, just that the relationship didn't seem like father-son to me.

Originally Posted by Alex

They also spent times in constructed realities within Limbo. It was said that Limbo was unconstructed empty dreamspace or whatever you yourself created in it. I took melting to meant that you'd go crazy from a near-eterinity in sensory deprivation.

So where is this sensory-deprivation limbo and how do you get there? Certainly Mal and Cobb's 50-years-together limbo was not this limbo then. And the "limbo" that Cobb rescued Saito from was not a limbo either. Why did he need rescuing? It was clearly told that Saito would be doomed to limbo if he died so deep in dream levels ... but that's not what happened at all. He lived a full life in familiar surroundings. I call shenanigans!

Originally Posted by Alex

Presumably they were in limbo for only a few hours at most in real time. During the limbo explanation it was shown several times that they were lying on their living room floor (same house as he returns to at the end) dreaming. Presumably somebody would have found them and awoken them if they'd been out for much longer than that (having kids and all).

Ah, 'natch. I still want an internet Inception Dream Time Calculator though.

[innerSpaceman]

And I'm not sure I agree with your understanding of who's dreaming at what levels. Certainly we know who the caretakers are, but I don't think that has any relation to who's dreaming - - though even Page's brilliant Architect character seems to have been confused on that score.

The first level - the rainy street level is Fischer's dream. That's the whole point. The team can enter his dream, but he is the dreamer. They design the maze and invade it.

Putting aside the fact, then, that all subsequent levels are still Fischer's dream - I believe it's explicit that he's also the dreamer of the snow level, but I'm not sure who's the dreamer of the hotel level.


I don't know why I like this movie; I HATE videogames.


But since Yousef is the caretaker of the dreamers IN Fischer's dream of the rain level, it's clear the caretaker and the dreamer are not necessarily related. Arthur does not have to be the dreamer of the hotel level simply because he then becomes the caretaker there.

Lukas Haas, the earlier architect, was not the dreamer of any levels he was caretaker in. It was somebody's dream within Seito's dream, but not Lukas's.

Oh Christ, now I'm even confusing myself.

[Alex]

No, the dream is hosted and constructed and the target fills it with his subconscious. You'll recall that when they get into the city streets dream that it is raining and they say this is because Yusef forgot to pee before going under. That's because it is his dream.

And Lukas Haas was the dreamer of the African apartment dream, from which Cobb dreamed them down to the second level of Saito's villa where they broke into his safe. When they awaken from that into the apartment Saito figures out it is still a dream because of the carpet and assumes that it is his dream and therefore he can control things and Cobb informs him, nope, they're in Haas's dream.

I'm pretty sure there was dialog establishing who was dreaming each level, but I could be wrong. I haven't seen any of the various guides popping up dispute my list, though.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

How is this a new plothole? I thought we solved a slew of plotholes by positing that dreamers needn't be present in all scenes of their own dreams.

It's not. My point was just that if there is an assumption that the dreamer must be present for what is dreamed then it just shifts the plothole from explaining why Cobb isn't in each scene to explaining why someone (or a desginated gruop of someone's) isn't in each scene.

If you don't assume the dreamer has to be physically present then there is no issue.