Religious Freedom

[lashbear]

Originally Posted by MouseWife

Hmm. This makes me wonder~

Is this why my sister really doesn't talk to me anymore? ....

...Anywho, don't hear from her much anymore. I wondered what was up and now this makes sense.

As we were fond of quoting when I was in the pentecostal, hallelujia, born again, charismatic Hillsong church (when it was only the "hills christion life centre" in a industrial unit):

In the Bible 2 Corinthians 6:14 says:"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (KJV)

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (NIV)

"Do not be teamed with those who do not love the Lord, for what do the people of God have in common with the people of sin? How can light live with darkness?" (LB)


See - we were told that our relatives and friends who were not "of God" were bad influences and we were to avoid contact and most certainly should not go out with or marry them.

Oh well, with all the money I saved not going out with anyone, I could afford the full 10% of my wage (before tax) tithes. I just love their big new monumental church estate they've built.


....the above post is with apologies to non-extremist Christians like Nephy & Scaeagles... I just need to vent sometimes. Forgive me.

[MouseWife]

Thanks, Lashbear. So it isn't my imagination....

Isn't it something? I sure hear a lot of judgement coming from religious people who are in no place to judge.

That is one big reason why I quit going to church and the biggest reason I don't go back. I was privy to some information via a member of a church committee and I had to tell them 'Isn't this what God is all about, forgiveness and beginning again? Shouldn't this person be given a chance? I don't see the church giving him a chance. I think he is a role model.' I was glad at the time that I felt I got through a bit. But to that person, not their whole member board.

I wish you the best. It isn't easy.

[scaeagles]

I've always heard that verse interpretted in reference to marriage. As in if you are a believer it probably isn't best to marry an unbeliever.

As a practicing (and practice certainly does not make perfect) Christian, it bugs me when unbelievers (or just those with varying opinions) are shunned. Jesus didn't hang out with the religious of the day. He hung out with those that the religious looked down on. Now, I will note that he didn't want people to remain unchanged, but he accepted everyone for who they were. For every former prostitute Jesus took under his wing there was a rich young ruler who wouldn't pay the price Jesus asked, which was just loving God more than money.

I have a different view of judgement than most. I can judge an action. We all judge actions all the time as to if we think it was a good thing or a bad thing. However, judgement of the heart is what no man can do. It is simply not within my purview to say so and so will burn in hell for such and such.

[Alex]

JW's don't, per policy, shun non-believers. They tend to hang out with like minded people but you are allowed to interact with all kinds of people.

The ones who are shunned are people who leave the faith. There is a certain amount of logic in this (not that it makes it any easier on people) because you have to understand what accepting the good news means to them and what a betrayal it is to have accepted it and then reject it. You are also fundamentally rejecting how they define themselves at their very core.

[tracilicious]

Alex is right. I wouldn't say they tend to hang out with like minded people though. I would say that 95% of them have no friends that aren't JW's. It's very strongly discouraged. They are friendly to unbelievers though.

I have a shred of hope that my sister will change her mind. I really do sympathize with my family. It isn't as black and white as judging and not being as good of friends as I thought we were. It's a whole nother world.

Celebrating Halloween to them is akin to Satan worship. I may as well have told them that I've decided to have a baby sandwich for lunch every day. They can't possibly comprehend that this is a decision I've come to using logic. To them my mind has been corrupted by Satan. Rejecting what they consider to be God's truth voluntarily is like telling them that I have a highly treatable form of cancer but have decided just to die. It isn't an easy time for them. I'm the last person they expected to do this to them, which makes it much worse.

If they were allowed to read anything about the bible or their religion besides what their religion publishes, then it would be much easier to understand. But then there also wouldn't be a ton of JW's left either. But as it is, they are indoctrinated three times a week, read loads of material published by their organization, and only associate with other JW's. It's a very insular world. To maintain close contact with me is to reach out of their comfort zone. Thankfully, most of them will do that. Hopefully in the end all of them will do that. Only because we are family though. There is no possible way any of our friends will.

So while I certainly am angry at my sister, I understand where she's coming from.

You guys' support has meant a great deal to me. I'm lucky to have the LoT and a supportive network of real life friends so that I can at least have a bit of normalcy right now.

[Alex]

Alex is right. I wouldn't say they tend to hang out with like minded people though. I would say that 95% of them have no friends that aren't JW's. It's very strongly discouraged.

I wonder if this is just standard variation from one congregation to another or if it is has become more rigid in the last 20 years (man, I can't believe it has been almost 20 years for me), but I don't recall ever experiencing any direct pressure not to associate with anybody I wanted (other than the disassociated), nor did my parents stop doing so.

And we were encouraged to read the bible (which is why I have read most of it), and not even just their translation but we also used the KJV. But yes, the official interpretation of things was always in your face.

Is it true that in recent years, the fine people in New York have moved away from the idea that Armageddon will happen before the last person alive in 1914 dies? I've always said that the first step in the maturation of a religion is abandoning specific predictions for the end of the world.

The thing I most liked about their specific brand of faith was that it got me out of having to celebrate my birthday (which I didn't like even when we did it) and the rejection of the trinity. The concept of the trinity has always struck me as very stupid so I'm glad I didn't have to try and internalize it.

Hopefully your sister will come around enough to have some kind of relationship, and I suspect she will with time.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I wonder if this is just standard variation from one congregation to another or if it is has become more rigid in the last 20 years (man, I can't believe it has been almost 20 years for me), but I don't recall ever experiencing any direct pressure not to associate with anybody I wanted (other than the disassociated), nor did my parents stop doing so.

I can't really say definitively. I've been in seven or eight congregations in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona and it's been pretty consistent. In 89 or 90 they released a book specifically for young people that stressed not associating with unbelievers or participating in extra curricular school activities. There's a good chance that people do have unbelieving friends and they just don't talk about it.

And we were encouraged to read the bible (which is why I have read most of it), and not even just their translation but we also used the KJV. But yes, the official interpretation of things was always in your face.

We were always encouraged to read the bible, but only the New World Translation. Any other version was considered highly inaccurate.

Is it true that in recent years, the fine people in New York have moved away from the idea that Armageddon will happen before the last person alive in 1914 dies? I've always said that the first step in the maturation of a religion is abandoning specific predictions for the end of the world.

I'm not totally solid on current doctrine, but they've hinted strongly at 2034. They are using the 120 years before the flood and comparing our time to Noah's or something. So 120 years from 1914 is 2034. They haven't said it outright, but the hints are there. It's just vague enough to cover their asses when it doesn't come. The entire 1914 thing is hilarious as it's historically and biblically inaccurate. I think the people in power know that, but abandoning that would be a huge nail in their coffin. They are pushing the Armageddon thing like I've never seen before. I think they're scared because so many people are leaving.

The thing I most liked about their specific brand of faith was that it got me out of having to celebrate my birthday (which I didn't like even when we did it) and the rejection of the trinity. The concept of the trinity has always struck me as very stupid so I'm glad I didn't have to try and internalize it.

Lol, that was the think I liked least growing up. Yes the trinity thing always struck me as dumb too. Though if we are all God's creations then I guess it doesn't matter whether Jesus is God or Jesus is from God. Technicality really. But JW's thrive on technicalities. I always liked the hell thing the best, as I have yet to see it accurately supported biblically. Though, I'm not sure how 99% of humanity dying is much better.

I think my sister will come around. She's married to an unbeliever after all.

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

I just think agnosticism sounds kind of lame. (No offense to anyone who's agnostic.) I don't really believe in god, I'm just open to the possibility that I'm wrong. I also think it's possible that there is some sort of different energy-ish thing that people call god, but definitely not a walking around in his castle in heaven looking like a person kind of god.

Yep, you're agnostic

[Never Grow Up]

Well traci and Alex....I was recently disfellowshipped! lol

I was an elder, pioneer, bethelite etc! But funny how things change when you "come out"

I had an attraction to the same sex since I was 4 and after spending 32 years trying to make everyone else happy, I dicided it was time to make me happy!

It's funny though, I got "kicked out" for being gay, but the man, my father, that molested me for many years is still an elder in the "church"

So, I say, "Welcome Aboard!"

[wendybeth]

Hey, welcome to the boards, NGW, and I'd invite you to just jump right in, but you already have! You'll be a fine fit to our Swanky family.


I can't help but read this thread and think that it's truly terrible, the things we do, in the name of God, Jesus or whatever other divinity you want to cite. I can't believe that people would turn away from family or be so easily swayed by others that annoint themselves as holy leaders and then require their followers to do such awful things. I find my trust in others has become very much compromised, but it's not such a big deal because I've always kind of followed my own path anyway.