Religious Freedom

[wendybeth]

Hey, welcome to the boards, NGW, and I'd invite you to just jump right in, but you already have! You'll be a fine fit to our Swanky family.


I can't help but read this thread and think that it's truly terrible, the things we do, in the name of God, Jesus or whatever other divinity you want to cite. I can't believe that people would turn away from family or be so easily swayed by others that annoint themselves as holy leaders and then require their followers to do such awful things. I find my trust in others has become very much compromised, but it's not such a big deal because I've always kind of followed my own path anyway.

[Never Grow Up]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Hey, welcome to the boards, NGW, and I'd invite you to just jump right in, but you already have! You'll be a fine fit to our Swanky family.


I can't help but read this thread and think that it's truly terrible, the things we do, in the name of God, Jesus or whatever other divinity you want to cite. I can't believe that people would turn away from family or be so easily swayed by others that annoint themselves as holy leaders and then require their followers to do such awful things. I find my trust in others has become very much compromised, but it's not such a big deal because I've always kind of followed my own path anyway.

Yes, none of my family has spoken to me in several years! But they are the ones missing out on my great life!

[wendybeth]

Alex, it's a bit of a stretch to extend my statement to the lengths you have, so I thank you for your clarification. Yes, I think mankind does have a tendency towards assholiness. I do not think Jesus was an asshole in any way, shape or form- just the people who try to speak for him and use and abuse his message. I really don't think I trust any man or woman, so I guess I will plod along on my merry way and hope for the best. If I'm wrong, so be it- I don't think I'd want to spend eternity with the god of most of these religions anyway. I will say, if I hear or read 'I'm not perfect; just forgiven' one more time, I will lose it on the transgressor. It's like a free pass to do rotten things to others and get away with it, and I just don't believe it's that easy that bypass karma, divine retribution or ironic occurence.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I do not think Jesus was an asshole in any way, shape or form- just the people who try to speak for him and use and abuse his message.

Out of curiosity, why does Jesus get a pass that all of the other people who claim devine authority in telling other people how to behave do not?

Since the only evidence we have of Jesus's message are the people who tried to speak for him (no direct authorship exists) how do you have any idea what his message was independent of them? Maybe it is like deciding that Jeffrey Dahmer was a pretty good guy based on the writings of his mother?

[wendybeth]

Alex, I'm pretty comfortable with my belief system, although I think 'system' implies more structure than it really has. I've arrived at a core belief that I think works for me and I have no desire to share or convert or really even discuss it. To go into why I think Jesus was not an asshole would involve far more discussion than I want to get into to, and it wouldn't necessarily be truth to anyone but me. You grew up a JW and your view is affected by the things you've experienced and learned in your lifetime; I grew up a Catholic and the same goes for me. I've studied (and continue to study) history, science and all the other things that might influence a person's belief system and have largely concluded that most of the bible is political bull****. It's been twisted and so selectively edited that any truth was probably lost long ago.

However, my metaphysical astrologist mother would say that the above is merely my Leo sun sign conflicting with my Pisces moon and it's spiritualistic influence.

[Alex]

Fair enough.

I'm very curious how you simultaneously belive that Jesus existed but that the Bible doesn't really contain any truth since any knowledge of the former only exists in the latter (as well as similar posthumous apocrphya). It is fair to not want to talk about it. But with your willingness to judge the faith of others, as you did above, I hope you can see where I might be interested in knowing more of how you come by such judgments and the method on which you filter what you find to be the wheat from the chaff.

As Richard Dawkins has been so famously saying recently, everybody is an atheist for 99% of the gods, atheists just take it one god farther. I'm fascinated by the process in which non-atheists end up picking that one god (or god-system, to involve the polytheists), and then how all the ones that pick the same god manage to create nearly infinite variations and then start shooting each other over them.

I'm certainly not looking to be converted or convince anybody else of my views. I'm just curious of a process so completely foreign to me since the gods forgot to give me the faith gene. But I can live with curiosity unfulfilled.

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I'm certainly not looking to be converted or convince anybody else of my views. I'm just curious of a process so completely foreign to me since the gods forgot to give me the faith gene. But I can live with curiosity unfulfilled.

It's difficult to reconcile a claim of mere curiosity when also presented with statements like this:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Since the only evidence we have of Jesus's message are the people who tried to speak for him (no direct authorship exists) how do you have any idea what his message was independent of them? Maybe it is like deciding that Jeffrey Dahmer was a pretty good guy based on the writings of his mother?

I'm having a hard time seeing that as anything other than a dig.

I can't speak for Wendybeth, but the reason I don't usually participate in these discussions is that, for the most part, the "other side" does NOT have a genuine curiosity to know how I think, except as a pretext for "demonstrating" how wrong I must be. Because the "other side" sees my beliefs as silly and fundamentally untrue, they are genuinely unable to prevent themselves from, in their minds, proving me wrong. The questions aren't so much "why do you believe that?" as they are "how can you believe that in the face of all this evidence I've decided proves your God doesn't exist?"

It's nearly, if not completely, impossible to have a reasonable discussion in such an environment. If I respond with any visible emotion whatsoever, it's proof that I've let emotion, and not reason, guide my judgment. If I stop participating, it's conceeding the point. I can't produce God out of my sock drawer or give his address in Jersey as proof. And what I can provide that I consider proof, others consider mere coincidence, which gets no one anywhere. And thus the argument goes 'round and the horse begs to be made glue already.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

As Richard Dawkins has been so famously saying recently, everybody is an atheist for 99% of the gods, atheists just take it one god farther. I'm fascinated by the process in which non-atheists end up picking that one god (or god-system, to involve the polytheists), and then how all the ones that pick the same god manage to create nearly infinite variations and then start shooting each other over them.

Though I didn't see this in Wendy's posts, I'm curious about the same thing. So many people believe so strongly that there faith is THE faith and all others are laughably wrong. (This goes for lack of faith as well.) I'm not sure why they can't see that others are reading the same scriptures they are and have interpreted it differently, not because they are idiots, but because the nature of the scriptures lends itself to many different interpretations.

For the particular religion that I've been part of, they have many justifications for why they are right and everyone else is wrong. They never truly look for the other side of the coin though. I'm assuming it's that way for most devout faiths. Also, the admittion of possible error opens up an entire world of uncertainty that most wouldn't be comfortable with. Perhaps the community aspect of it comes into play as well. With the erosion of beliefs would come the erosion of the larger social group that they are part of. All their security would be lost.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Never Grow Up

Yes, none of my family has spoken to me in several years! But they are the ones missing out on my great life!

Ugh, that is so beyond crappy! I'm curious, how do you feel about JW teachings now? Do you still believe in God and the bible? I know some leave and remain Christian, so this is just pure curiosity on my part.