"Liberal Queer" - Page 4

Ghoulish Delight · 02-16-2005, 10:37 AM

Okay, I'll say it again...that' NOT what I'm arguing. I KNOW you don't believe homosexuality is destructive, and you know I don't believe that. But people like Keyes do. And whether you agree with him or not, that's where he's coming from. So while I find his basic premise completely off-base, I do NOT question his love for his own family. That's the topic. That's the "hate the sin, love the sinner" that you say you don't understand. If you see someone you love doing something that you think is desctructive, you are going to continue to dislike the trait, that doesn't preclude you from loving that person anymore.

scaeagles · 02-16-2005, 10:45 AM

There are all sorts of genetic issues coming out, such as a predisposition to alcoholism, obesity, whatever. Someone very close to me is obese. Not completely her fault at all (note completely), as she exercises and tries to eat right, but she does have a certain genetic disposition to it (family history, etc). This does not absolve her, however, from the times she overeats or eats things that are poison to her system.

MBC, I have never understood why acceptance of someone as a person means acceptance of their activities. Should I surmise that you do not accept me because I choose to participate with Republicans and support their campaign efforts? Certainly not. While my political standing is most likely not genetic (though the side effects of me going liberal would be something like organ transplant rejection, I'm sure), I choose to do such a thing, and you find the things that I believe in to be....unacceptable a lot of the time.

The "love the sinner, hate the sin" does nothing for me in terms of absolution. I have a friend - and evangelical Christian, no less - that is divorcing her husband. The Bible says the God hates divorce. Do I think she is making the right choice? No. I am not in her shoes, though, and would not care to be (hmmm....that would make me gay and a proponent of gay marriage if i were married to her husband....), but i can still call her my friend and our family is doing our best (in limited fashion - she isn't living with us or anything) to help her through the emotional devastation. We most certainly love her, but are saddened by her choice.

My 11 year old daughter makes choices all the time that I disapprove of. I love her to death, and it's part of the learning process for her. You know how hard it is for me to let her not study and get a poor grade on a test? Drives me nuts. Ayway, I most certainly intervene if there is a possibility of harm. When I was not a parent, parenting was so easy. I would not suggest that anyone who does not have children cannot comment on the Keyes situation, but parenthood adds a certain perpective that non parents do not have. Who else involved here has kids? Please do not read into my statements that I believe my opinion is of more value because I have kids. I just have a perspective that many here do not. I will also add that I am not gay, so that is a perspective that many here have that I do not.

Gemini Cricket · 02-16-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Actually, most studies show that you ARE born an alcoholic, that alcoholism runs in the family, and they have isolated some genes that seem to contribute to it.

I'm not an alcoholic. I know a few. But my father is, my mother is, my grandfathers were... I'm not well versed on alcoholism, but with my background, should I or my sisters be? We're not...

I wanted to reiterate that I know you're not saying being gay is destructive. I get that.

But being a rainbow flag waving sista, I do raise an eyebrow when I hear gay, alcoholic, mental illness, pedophile and AIDS used in the same sentence.

Ghoulish Delight · 02-16-2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I'm not an alcoholic. I know a few. But my father is, my mother is, my grandfathers were... I'm not well versed on alcoholism, but with my background, should I or my sisters be? We're not...

Are your parents gay?

Chernabog · 02-16-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

But being a rainbow flag waving sista, I do raise an eyebrow when I hear gay, alcoholic, mental illness, pedophile and AIDS used in the same sentence.

Seriously. There's a reason why being gay/bi doesn't often get compared by these so-called Christians to "having blue eyes".

And "love the sinner hate the sin" with regard to being gay is homophobic. Though I need to get into that whole debate later since I am late for work, d'oh

Gemini Cricket · 02-16-2005, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Are your parents gay?

The jury's out on dear mama, but if I'd have to make a call, I'd say yes for her.

Ghoulish Delight · 02-16-2005, 11:10 AM

AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me. I'm not disagreeing that he's a homophobe and that his views on homosexuality are wrong! All I'm saying is that it's not unfathomable that this man still loves his freaking daughter. While I find his message and political goals distasteful, that doesn't mean he hates her.

My father-in-law is a hate filled man. He's a homophobe, he's a racist, and he's a bigot about just about anything. He's the most judgemental SOB I've ever met. I know for a fact that he hates some of the decissions that CP has made. But while I cannot respect his beliefs, I never question that he loves his daughter, or that she loves him.

Gemini Cricket · 02-16-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

The jury's out on dear mama, but if I'd have to make a call, I'd say yes for her.

I know I wrote that like a joke, but seriously. I think she is.

Ghoulish Delight · 02-16-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

The jury's out on dear mama, but if I'd have to make a call, I'd say yes for her.

Whatever, the point is genetics don't work that way. It's chance and probability. (here's one for you, Chernabog). Everyone in CPs immediate family has brown eyes. That's 2 parents, and 3 brothers. So by your genetic logic, if she doesn't have brown eyes, that proves that eye color isn't genetic at all. Well, she's got blue eyes. Does that mean eye color isn't genetic? No, it just means that different genes were expressed in her genome than her parents. She still go the genes from them, they just weren't the dominant genes in their chromosones. So having 2 alcoholic parents does not guarantee alcoholic children, it just increases the chances.

SacTown Chronic · 02-16-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

So having 2 alcoholic parents does not guarantee alcoholic children, it just increases the chances.

But are the increased odds due to genetics or is it because they watched mom and dad slug down the booze day after day and they know no other way?

02-16-2005, 10:37 AM	#31
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Okay, I'll say it again...that' NOT what I'm arguing. I KNOW you don't believe homosexuality is destructive, and you know I don't believe that. But people like Keyes do. And whether you agree with him or not, that's where he's coming from. So while I find his basic premise completely off-base, I do NOT question his love for his own family. That's the topic. That's the "hate the sin, love the sinner" that you say you don't understand. If you see someone you love doing something that you think is desctructive, you are going to continue to dislike the trait, that doesn't preclude you from loving that person anymore. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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02-16-2005, 10:45 AM	#32
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	There are all sorts of genetic issues coming out, such as a predisposition to alcoholism, obesity, whatever. Someone very close to me is obese. Not completely her fault at all (note completely), as she exercises and tries to eat right, but she does have a certain genetic disposition to it (family history, etc). This does not absolve her, however, from the times she overeats or eats things that are poison to her system. MBC, I have never understood why acceptance of someone as a person means acceptance of their activities. Should I surmise that you do not accept me because I choose to participate with Republicans and support their campaign efforts? Certainly not. While my political standing is most likely not genetic (though the side effects of me going liberal would be something like organ transplant rejection, I'm sure), I choose to do such a thing, and you find the things that I believe in to be....unacceptable a lot of the time. The "love the sinner, hate the sin" does nothing for me in terms of absolution. I have a friend - and evangelical Christian, no less - that is divorcing her husband. The Bible says the God hates divorce. Do I think she is making the right choice? No. I am not in her shoes, though, and would not care to be (hmmm....that would make me gay and a proponent of gay marriage if i were married to her husband....), but i can still call her my friend and our family is doing our best (in limited fashion - she isn't living with us or anything) to help her through the emotional devastation. We most certainly love her, but are saddened by her choice. My 11 year old daughter makes choices all the time that I disapprove of. I love her to death, and it's part of the learning process for her. You know how hard it is for me to let her not study and get a poor grade on a test? Drives me nuts. Ayway, I most certainly intervene if there is a possibility of harm. When I was not a parent, parenting was so easy. I would not suggest that anyone who does not have children cannot comment on the Keyes situation, but parenthood adds a certain perpective that non parents do not have. Who else involved here has kids? Please do not read into my statements that I believe my opinion is of more value because I have kids. I just have a perspective that many here do not. I will also add that I am not gay, so that is a perspective that many here have that I do not.
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02-16-2005, 11:10 AM	#37
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me. I'm not disagreeing that he's a homophobe and that his views on homosexuality are wrong! All I'm saying is that it's not unfathomable that this man still loves his freaking daughter. While I find his message and political goals distasteful, that doesn't mean he hates her. My father-in-law is a hate filled man. He's a homophobe, he's a racist, and he's a bigot about just about anything. He's the most judgemental SOB I've ever met. I know for a fact that he hates some of the decissions that CP has made. But while I cannot respect his beliefs, I never question that he loves his daughter, or that she loves him. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
	Submit to Quotes