"Liberal Queer"

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me.

Try being Keyes's daughter. Imagine how frustrating that would be. Conflicting stances, the uncertainty of a father's love, being in the public eye, coming out, lack of support, being okay with yourself...

I consider myself ignorant on what you're saying about alcoholism and I will research that and get back to you. But I doubt Keyes could even say that when it came to his daughter. So if they do want to take this conflict public, then we're allowed to discuss what we think about him and his daughter. I don't think we should judge their love for one another, we don't know them personally, but we can discuss, agree and disagree... Right?

I'm not meaning to be frustrating and I don't know anything about genetics. All I do know is that I DO know what it's like to have parents judge you as Keyes is doing...

[wendybeth]

I can see both sides here, but as a parent, I would never ever say what he has said, even if I believed it. Never. It's a public condemnation of your own child, and to do that, yet say you love them.......Doesn't sound like love to me. I'm not in their place, so I can't say what they really feel, but I just know I will always love my daughter, no matter what, and I would never say or do what he has. Perhaps he is able to reconcile his feelings with the "Love the sinner, hate the sin", stuff, but personally I think that whole mode of thinking is a crock. Kind of along the lines of "I'm not perfect- just forgiven", which many Christians take as a license to do rotten things to others, so long as they say "WHoops- sorry, God!" in their prayers at night.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I can see both sides here, but as a parent, I would never ever say what he has said, even if I believed it. Never. It's a public condemnation of your own child, and to do that, yet say you love them.......Doesn't sound like love to me.

Keyes has been around a lot longer than his 19 year old daughter has been a lesbian (assuming this wasn't an issue until maybe 6 years ago? Don't know when it was "discovered"). He has been saying the same thing for a long time. So it's OK to say something is wrong until someone you know and love - like your child - participates in things that you have long professed are wrong? That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."

Actually, I think it takes strength of character on the part of Keyes to maintain his stance in with the incredible public scrutiny.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."

Well, for many people it becomes a moment of, "Oh wait, you mean that these aren't evil people and the downfall of society?"

[alphabassettgrrl]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Well, for many people it becomes a moment of, "Oh wait, you mean that these aren't evil people and the downfall of society?"

That's one of the larger reasons behind being visibly gay - people might see us and realize that we are not what they had been told. We are people, just like anybody else, just who we love is different. You get to know your neighbor, and you like them, and when they turn out to be gay, it's not what you were told "they" were like. Suddenly "they" have a face. So you have to either believe your loved neighbor is suddenly a bad person, or you recognize that maybe the propeganda was wrong. We hope people start to see that the propeganda is incorrect.

I'm not sure quite what it is that is supposed to be so wrong, but whatever.

Why does homophobia hurt so much? Yes, it's only one characteristic, but for me it's a fairly large one. Not a primary one, but it's high on the list. It *does* help define who I am, and for someone to attack me for it, hurts. I can't decide if it's good or bad that for me it's not a choice (though I've had it argued both ways). It isn't a choice, though I wouldn't change this even if I did have a chance. I like me.

**hugs**
-kerry, babbling some...

[MouseWife]

I think it hurts, and I am only going by my own relationship with my now husband where in the beginning we were made to feel as if we were doing something terribly wrong being together~

It hurts because, while that is only a part of you, it is the intimate part of you. Something no one should have the right to judge. Something you have every right to feel just as you wish, naturally and wholly.

It is what is in your heart and soul and no one has the right to enter those places with malice and judgement.

Tolerance isn't what we need, it is acceptance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by alphabassettgrrl

I can't decide if it's good or bad that for me it's not a choice (though I've had it argued both ways).

Yeah, that's an ugly argument either way, and proving either true will disuade no one. On the "nature" side you have "We were born like this, why should we be judged and ridiculed for how we were born," vs., "People with genetic diseases are born that way too, so should we just let them be without intervention as well?" And on the "nurture" side you have, "America is about freedom of choice, if it doesn't affect other people then you have no right to legislate," vs., "Since it is a 'choice' and therefore influenced by your environment, then it's our moral reponsibility to not promote an environment that promotes immoral choices."

So in the end, whether it's genetic or environmental is completely moot as the dichotomy runs far deeper than that.

[just to be perfectly clear, nothing stated above represents my view point on anything. They are just examples of the divisive stances that people take on all sides of the issue, no matter what the facts are]

[alphabassettgrrl]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Yeah, that's an ugly argument either way, and proving either true will disuade no one.
<<snip>>
So in the end, whether it's genetic or environmental is completely moot as the dichotomy runs far deeper than that.

Exactly.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Keyes has been around a lot longer than his 19 year old daughter has been a lesbian (assuming this wasn't an issue until maybe 6 years ago? Don't know when it was "discovered"). He has been saying the same thing for a long time. So it's OK to say something is wrong until someone you know and love - like your child - participates in things that you have long professed are wrong? That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."

Actually, I think it takes strength of character on the part of Keyes to maintain his stance in with the incredible public scrutiny.

I get what you are saying, but it's easy to take a stance on something and to see only black and white, until the subject strikes closer to home. That personalizes it, and one would be expected to revaluate in this situation. I know, because it has happened in our family. A very close relative belongs to a religion that demands you turn your back on homosexual family members. SHe did not, and refuses to. She admits she doesn't understand it, but she'll never turn her back on this person, and she loves her with all her heart. She is also much more sensitive about others comments on the subject. This person changed her mind on how she viewed homosexuality, largely due to the fact that it became personal.

At the same time, if this is truly how he feels, then he has the courage of his convictions and I respect that.