Hypersensitivity...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

I'm sick of the oversensitivity these days. I also think that's why we nowhave school shootings, etc., because people are being bred to be overly sensitive, that once they're called a bad name, they can't handle it without gunning everyone down.

I believe I mentioned a while ago about the game of musical chairs I witnessed at my company picnic where when a child didn't get a chair, they were told they were the "next winner" and sent back to mom and dad with a prize.

CP told this story to coworkers, who thought it was "adorable." They said kids that young just can't understand losing, and they'll figure it out on their own when they're ready. When CP replied that her parents let her win or lose fairly, they told her, I believe quite literally, that she obviously had horrible parents that didn't care for her.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I believe I mentioned a while ago about the game of musical chairs I witnessed at my company picnic where when a child didn't get a chair, they were told they were the "next winner" and sent back to mom and dad with a prize.

CP told this story to coworkers, who thought it was "adorable." They said kids that young just can't understand losing, and they'll figure it out on their own when they're ready. When CP replied that her parents let her win or lose fairly, they told her, I believe quite literally, that she obviously had horrible parents that didn't care for her.

While the Co-workers in question are definitely outliers on the normal curve of parental behavior for their rudeness alone, it is not uncommon for parents of very young children to feel like they must protect their kids from all evil. Typically they get over it by the time the kids hit 9 or 10 but some persist and they really are horrible parents.

In our kids pre-school the big thing was to "build confidence". My point of view, which of course I stated loudly and often, was that building confidence is a buch of hooey. All you are doing is feeding kids fairy tails about how great they are. My point was (and still is) that the goal should be to build capability and out of capability you naturally get confidence.

For this radical viewpoint I was just about universally shunned by the other pre-school parents.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

In our kids pre-school the big thing was to "build confidence". My point of view, which of course I stated loudly and often, was that building confidence is a buch of hooey. All you are doing is feeding kids fairy tails about how great they are. My point was (and still is) that the goal should be to build capability and out of capability you naturally get confidence.

Within the given limitations. Nothing is gained by setting unreasonable goals and making little kids feel like failures.

I coached my daughter's soccer team of five and six year-olds this fall, and we had one boy who just was not ready to listen or comfortable with competing physically with kids he did not know. His parents should have pulled the plug on that early on, but they paid their money and there wasn't much I could say or do. (Soccer does not have a right field.)

Not that it's relevant to this topic, but I did have one dad pull his kid on advice of counsel because his ex and his girlfriend would curse each other out and threaten to kick each other's ass while the kid was on the field.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Within the given limitations. Nothing is gained by setting unreasonable goals and making little kids feel like failures.

I agree, but I'm not sure that that is what Moonliner was saying. I'm anti good jobbing, as well, but because it is just another way thing that grown ups to do get kids to do what they want. I'd much rather a have a preschool that teaches kids, and helps them to find their internal motivation, rather than turning them into praise junkies whose sense of self hangs on stickers and verbal doggie biscuits. Neither punishment nor rewarding is appropriate in a such a setting. It's funny that so many don't realize that teaching can happen absent of those two control techniques.

I'm amused that in threads like these, where so many are so quick to bash parents that annoy them, I find myself disagreeing with both the poster and the person they disagree with. It doesn't need to be either give in to kids and spoil them or teach them the hard ways of the cruel world. There is a whole other train of thought that can be followed should one simply jump on.

[Strangler Lewis]

Be careful what you say. Mrs. Grossman's Sticker Factory is one of Petaluma's leading industries now that the Jewish chicken ranchers have died out.

I am curious what kind of preschool Moonliner is hooked up with and when he has these conversations. I've never had more than a "How's it going" with other parents at pick up/drop off. I drop my kid off, he goes to the mat to listen to a story and he comes back with an arm full of paintings, news of what Billy Bird had to say today and who he pushed or yelled at because they pushed him.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Be careful what you say. Mrs. Grossman's Sticker Factory is one of Petaluma's leading industries now that the Jewish chicken ranchers have died out.

I am curious what kind of preschool Moonliner is hooked up with...

There were monthly teas held at the school. The principal would attend and give a short talk on some aspect of the school curriculum followed by an open discussion with the parents. At the time I had a very flexible schedule (it's good to be the boss) so I was one of the few dad's that attended the morning meetings.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Neither punishment nor rewarding is appropriate in a such a setting.

I once asked why I didn't get a cash reward from my mom for good grades (which I didn't get often since then, like now, I think homework is generally a stupid waste of time designed to make teachers feel like their accomplishing sometihng) like many of my friends did. Her answer was "why would I pay you for what you're supposed to do anyway? Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

...Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."

Except that the entire grading system is ridiculous and not really an indication of what's been learned anyways. (But yeah, money for grades sort of undermines a natural desire to learn, I think. So do grades.)

Moonliner, that is exactly my point. The mentallity is that either kids are praised for nothing or they are praised only for specific things. What if we take praise out of the equation? What if we simply guide kids and allow their natural desire to learn and succeed take over, helping them when they need us (and no I don't consider praise and criticism help), backing off when they don't? What if we replace, "Good job studying for that test!" with, "What did you find most challenging? Are you happy with your results?" Our judgements need not enter into the conversation.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Except that the entire grading system is ridiculous and not really an indication of what's been learned anyways. (But yeah, money for grades sort of undermines a natural desire to learn, I think. So do grades.)

Moonliner, that is exactly my point. The mentallity is that either kids are praised for nothing or they are praised only for specific things. What if we take praise out of the equation? What if we simply guide kids and allow their natural desire to learn and succeed take over, helping them when they need us (and no I don't consider praise and criticism help), backing off when they don't? What if we replace, "Good job studying for that test!" with, "What did you find most challenging? Are you happy with your results?" Our judgements need not enter into the conversation.

Except that young kids (pre-teen and younger) crave the praise. Withholding that in favor of responses like "What did you find most challenging" equates in their mind to rejection. I still argue praise for effort. At age two a scribbled crayon mess is cause for praise, age four not so much.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I once asked why I didn't get a cash reward from my mom for good grades (which I didn't get often since then, like now, I think homework is generally a stupid waste of time designed to make teachers feel like their accomplishing sometihng) like many of my friends did. Her answer was "why would I pay you for what you're supposed to do anyway? Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."

While we don't have a fixed pay scale, we do reward good grades. We tend to treat school like a job. It is their job to go to school just like mom and dad go off to work. Sometimes the job requires you to work late or miss some fun event, sometimes not. If you do a good job you get "paid". For the kids that's the everyday extras in life. Cable TV, Computers, PS2's etc... If you don't do your job you lose those extras (a pay cut). If you do extra work (overtime) you get a bonus. Perhaps a nice lobster dinner, or a new Ferrari.