Hypersensitivity...

[Nephythys]

What if they do not have a natual desire to learn and succeed?

There is not one formula for every kids- no "one size fits all" course of action.

[Stan4dSteph]

I thought this was about the war on Christmas.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Stan4dSteph

I thought this was about the war on Christmas.

No, at least not for me. This was never about Christmas exactly. It was about people overreacting to other people. I think Alex summed it up nicely, it's about people getting offended on behalf of other people. The examples I gave were taken from current headlines and given the time of year 2/3 happened to have a holiday bent.

Of course thread have a life of their own so they go where they will, but I can state that the original post was not about "The war on Christmas"

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Except that young kids (pre-teen and younger) crave the praise. Withholding that in favor of responses like "What did you find most challenging" equates in their mind to rejection. I still argue praise for effort. At age two a scribbled crayon mess is cause for praise, age four not so much.

No, kids crave their parents acceptance. When that acceptance has been translated into pleasure or disapproval over individual actions, then that is when kids begin to crave the praise.

Originally Posted by Nephythys

What if they do not have a natual desire to learn and succeed?

Everyone is born with a natural desire to learn and succeed. It is often driven out of them by the conditional acceptance of those around them. With support and unconditional love, I believe every child will do their best in everything they want to do.

Originally Posted by GD

I'm just against the "You're a winner no matter what!" mantra.

Why does it have to be about winning or losing? My question is not, should one person win musical chairs or should everyone, my question is why musical chairs? Wouldn't it be a more fun game, if instead of everyone trying to snatch a chair and one person being sent away, all the kids try to fit into the remaining chairs? Then in the end you have a whole group of giggling kids and not five sad kids and one happy kid (or five kids that know they got a booby prize and one kid that resents not being the real winner).

The lesson between the two games is different as well. In the fun version kids work as a team to solve a problem and reach a goal. In the standard version kids focus on defeating their opponent. I stipulate that the former is a more valuable skill to learn. I don't know anyone that needs to defeat people on a regular basis. Almost everyone I know has to work with others to reach common goals. Why are we drilling competition and the need to "win" into kids at such a young age? What's the point of that? I don't see it as anything but destructive.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Everyone is born with a natural desire to learn and succeed. It is often driven out of them by the conditional acceptance of those around them. With support and unconditional love, I believe every child will do their best in everything they want to do.

I see- well, I disagree and take some exception to your generality- but it's not worth getting any further into it.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

I see- well, I disagree and take some exception to your generality- but it's not worth getting any further into it.

Ohh, nice use of the passive aggressive debate technique!

I get to make my point but you don't get a chance to respond because I have already deemed it not worth getting any further into.

Well done

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Ohh, nice use of the passive aggressive debate technique!

I get to make my point but you don't get a chance to respond because I have already deemed it not worth getting any further into.

Well done

*sigh*

If I had chosen to respond as I initially wanted to I would have been upset and emotional- so I stepped back- and I still get grief.

I support and love my son deeply- I encourage him all the time- he hates school. He has NO desire to succeed and learn. I struggle constantly and the idea that a kid will simply bloom into that kind of self motivated person with the right amount of love and support is insulting to me. As if somehow I am just not supporting and loving him unconditionally enough- so instead of getting into that mess I simply said I disagree and take exception to some of her theories.

The hassle is not worth the effort.

On edit- I know her comment was not a personal barb directed at me- hence my decision to refrain from reacting to it. That is not passive agressive- it was being prudent in my response.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

I support and love my son deeply- I encourage him all the time- he hates school. He has NO desire to succeed and learn.

I'm glad that you realize that I wasn't trying to insult you. Hating school, and having no desire to succeed and learn are two very different things. School is a destructive environment for many kids. There is no such thing as an ideal situation, or a perfect way to parent, so perhaps we should leave this particular area of discussion.

As for the rest of the competition comments, I'm not against competition. I do find it unnecessary for small kids. If a kid is of an age where they can understand winning and losing and choose to participate in a sport then I think that is great. Sports are lots of fun. I'm not sure why a four year old should be pushed to compete though. It seems odd that competition plays such a small part of adult life (personal competition, not business competition) yet we try and put our kids in front of it constantly.

Life throws so many disappointments at us constantly. I find it pointless to set kids up for those sorts of things. They happen naturally. You may as well say, "Kids at school are going to make fun of your big nose anyways. I'm going to start making fun of it myself now so that it isn't a big deal when the other kids do it."

There WILL be times when the ice cream truck passes by before you can get your money out, or when another kid has something that they don't, it just happens. Kids don't have to be taught how to handle disappointment by us setting it up for them. They'll have more than enough opportunities by just growing up.

I probably should have learned by now not to get involved in discussions on kids with people whose thoughts are so entrenched in mainstream thinking. (I don't mean that as an insult, but none of you seem to be willing to think outside the box.) In my particular circle of parenting friends, none of us punish or reward or engage our kids in competition (they're all only three or four) and they are all excellent kids that are faced with disappointment and handle it pretty gracefully.

I've known many teens and adults who are sore losers yet they've been competing all their lives.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

(I don't mean that as an insult, but none of you seem to be willing to think outside the box.)

The way I think is shaped in majority by the way I was raised. And seeing as I grew up never having been shielded from competition and possess what I consider to be a healthy attitude toward competition, winning, and losing, I am forced to conclude that exposure to competition isn't what produces sore losers and arrogant winners. Rather, it's attitude toward competition that shapes it. Therefore, I simply can't agree with you that pointedly avoiding competition is a necessary component in raising an adjusted child. I'm not arguing that it's detremental to do so, but based on my experience, I see no compelling reason to take that step.

As I've said in other dicussions, I don't put much stock in whether something is mainstream or not mainstream. If you consider my conclusions "not outside the box", I couldn't care less. I strive to come to my conclusions independent of the box. Sometimes they fall within it, sometimes they don't. Oh well.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

In my particular circle of parenting friends, none of us punish or reward or engage our kids in competition (they're all only three or four) and they are all excellent kids that are faced with disappointment and handle it pretty gracefully.

Let's get down to cases here. Are we talking JW? Waldorf? Single mothers in housing projects? I assume not the latter, though when I did live among the projects during law school, I saw a lot of well-adjusted looking little kids of whom little was expected and who seemed to be handling their lot well. Then they grew up.

If Waldorf, the Waldorf parents I know obsess, worry and fetishize their child's development more than any other parents I've met.

I can't really say whether I agree with you without a sense of what kind of disappointments you expect your kids to be able to endure. Knowing a little something of your background, I am suspecting that they are fairly minimal. The sense I get from your post is not that the kids are learning to handle disappointment well; it's that they are learning that there is not much in this worldy world worth aspiring to or being excited about. (In the Enneagram, that's a type 5--the unenlightened Buddha. It's what I test as.)

I will agree that competition and performances for three and four year-olds are to be avoided. They don't get it, and it's an f*****' bore for the adults. A photo op to be sure, but not worth the weekly shlep.