Hypersensitivity...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Parents push their kids to be the best from an insanely young age. I just don't get it.

But that's what I'm talking about. It's not the competition, it's the parental attitude. And that's where this all started. Yes, I agree that pushing competition, and specifically pushing a "win, win, win!" attitude is bad. But I just don't believe that the remedy to that is to remove competition, or redefine competition to "everyone's a winner". I believe the remedy is to encourage personal accomplishment within the framwork of competition with winning and losing being merely part of a set of factors to guage progress and success. I don't suppose our ideal are as far apart as this discussion is making it seem. I don't plan on signing my proginy up for AYSO as soon as they squirt out. I just don't feel a need to put as much stock in actively avoiding competition as you appear to.

And for the record, I hated musical chairs growing up. It's a stupid game. But I think that's mostly because no one seemed to ever be able to agree on a decent set of rules (oh yeah, learning how rules can make order out of chaos, another good lesson to be learned from competition).

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Let's get down to cases here. Are we talking JW? Waldorf? Single mothers in housing projects?

If Waldorf, the Waldorf parents I know obsess, worry and fetishize their child's development more than any other parents I've met.

Lol. None of the above. I'd rather put my kids in soccer when they are six months old than hang out with JW parents, and I have a whole other set of issues with Waldorf philosophy (that probably only you and I would be interested in discussing, so I'll shut up about it).

I guess if I have to categorize my parenting friends the best I can do is this: Most of us have read a book called Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, that stresses working with kids rather than doing to kids, and we practice it to the best of our ability. We are all committed to gentle discipline (which means teaching, not punishing) and in general we avoid praising (which probably sounds more hands off than it is - we'll say, "you did it!" rather than, "good job!"). Some of us will homeschool/unschool. I doubt any of our kids has ever had a pop tart. I guess you can just call it crunchy. Though I'm not sure how that is relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

I can't really say whether I agree with you without a sense of what kind of disappointments you expect your kids to be able to endure. Knowing a little something of your background, I am suspecting that they are fairly minimal. The sense I get from your post is not that the kids are learning to handle disappointment well; it's that they are learning that there is not much in this worldy world worth aspiring to or being excited about. (In the Enneagram, that's a type 5--the unenlightened Buddha. It's what I test as.)

I'm not sure how you would get that sense from my post. I expect my kids to be able to handle any disappointment that comes their way. Some will be small some will be large, but I also expect them to succeed in just about everything they do.

I find it ridiculous that you think they wouldn't get excited about anything. That's the whole point of this whole parenting system is so that kids retain their zeal for learning and their excitement about life. My three year old can tell you things about dinosaurs that I didn't even know. He drew the insides of his intestines yesterday. His penchant for geeking out about things is almost scary. I imagine that one day he will like something enough to want to compete. I just don't see the point of stinking musical chairs and setting kids up for disappointment. I'd rather give them the tools they need for success.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

But that's what I'm talking about. It's not the competition, it's the parental attitude. And that's where this all started. Yes, I agree that pushing competition, and specifically pushing a "win, win, win!" attitude is bad. But I just don't believe that the remedy to that is to remove competition, or redefine competition to "everyone's a winner". I believe the remedy is to encourage personal accomplishment within the framwork of competition with winning and losing being merely part of a set of factors to guage progress and success. I don't suppose our ideal are as far apart as this discussion is making it seem. I don't plan on signing my proginy up for AYSO as soon as they squirt out. I just don't feel a need to put as much stock in actively avoiding competition as you appear to.

If a game is going on that he wants to participate in, then he's more than welcome to. I just don't see the point of setting them up for competition so early. But yes, having everyone win a game that clearly isn't designed for that is dumb. I think that kids are smart enough to know that. There are plenty of games where there is no need for everyone to be a winner or a loser. They are just games you play for fun.

[wendybeth]

I have a good friend who was raising her three kids in much the manner and philosophy that Traci is. It hasn't worked out as well as she thought. I'm not saying it won't for Traci- truth be told, it's very early in the game for her and her family. There are, as with any sort of parenting philosophy, so many variables that could upset the apple cart. I don't even pretend to have a plan, other than teaching my kid to treat people as she'd like to be treated, realise that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and just because one is better at something does not mean that they are superior beings. We engage in mild forms of competition, such as video or board games, but don't really play any sports except dance, which is not at all competitive at this point.

I despise overenthused sports parents but if they want to mess up their own kids so be it. I also don't think completely nixing competition is a good idea- just how the hell are the kids going to function in the real world? It's naive to expect the entire human race to just stop doing something so basic to our nature. Learning to temper it is fine, but isn't that what most people do as they grow? Anyway, I think all this non-competition stuff with kids older than pre-school age is asinine.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I have a good friend who was raising her three kids in much the manner and philosophy that Traci is. It hasn't worked out as well as she thought. I'm not saying it won't for Traci- truth be told, it's very early in the game for her and her family. There are, as with any sort of parenting philosophy, so many variables that could upset the apple cart. I don't even pretend to have a plan, other than teaching my kid to treat people as she'd like to be treated, realise that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and just because one is better at something does not mean that they are superior beings. We engage in mild forms of competition, such as video or board games, but don't really play any sports except dance, which is not at all competitive at this point.

I could say the same about so many mainstream parents. I think the variables thing is the key. I really don't want to come off as sounding like I think I know everything about parenting. All I know is that as often as humanly possible I will work with my kids instead of doing something to them, and instead of punishing and rewarding I will teach. I'm not sure how that can go wrong.

[wendybeth]

You're raising your kids to the best of your ability and in a manner that you have reasoned will produce positive results, Traci. I personally think it's great, but no matter what we all do our kids will still think we sucked as parents and vow to do better when they raise theirs.

Then we, as grandparents, get to sit back, relax and just have fun with the little ones- let the parents worry about all that formative stuff.

[Alex]

My view is that over the millennia many, many different methods of child rearing have been tried and they all seem to result in roughly the same distribution of adult personalities.

How you choose do it, so long as it isn't extremely abusive/manipulative, doesn't really seem to make much difference. So do it how you want.

What I care about is when one person decides that a "method" should be enforced on all the others. And this happens in schools a lot where kids are forced to come together. It is an understandable impulse but I don't like it any more.

But then, I am still caught up on the extremely foreign concept of people acquiring kids intentionally. What form of mental illness is that?

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Then we, as grandparents, get to sit back, relax and just have fun with the little ones- let the parents worry about all that formative stuff.

Is there an announcement you'd like to share with the class?

[wendybeth]

God, no. Just maybe someday...in the very distant future.