Sometimes I hate being right

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

So they demanded action in Iraq over what they thought was an urgent threat to America's security based on "full info and briefings" provided by....the Bush administration. Yowza!

And let's not forget, since we are engaging in an exercise to defend against revisionist history, the political climate (70% of Americans in favor of attacking) at the time. The dems where guilty of lacking a backbone and going along with the frenzy whipped up by a warmongering administration, I'll grant you that.

:rolleyes" yeah- that's it. The dems were weak willed helpless and hapless, almost victims, who just could not stand up to anyone. They are not REALLY responsible for any of the opinions that Iraq was a threat, or had WMD's, no, they were just misled, and it's all someone else's fault

The briefings and intel came LONG before the current Bush administration-

do you ever get tired of offering these excuses, justifications or finger pointing at anyone BUT your party?

Originally Posted by ghoulish delight

Yes, there were people on both sides who truly believed that Iraw was a threat before we went in. But as the issue got pushed, as the time for a decission came, people said, "Okay, let's see the hard evidence, the smoking gun, THEN we'll support it." And what hard evidence came out? Collin Powel with a couple satelite photos of trucks with circles around them. THAT'S when people's "stories changed", and by "stories changed," I mean people stood by their statements that said we shouldn't go in without defnitive proof. And yet we did.

Between you and me, I wouldn't have been surprised to find out that Sadaam DID have a WMD program. But without proof, there was no justification for action. Assume and speculate all you want, but there's a damned good reason part of the foundation of this country involves the addage "innocent until proven guilty." I suppose we should all thank George for demonstrating so vividly why it's important to do more than pay lip service to the values that define our country, and actually uphold them rather then uphold them unless it's convenient not to.

You can't apply our JUSTICE system to this! I'm sorry- after years of problematic inspections, breaking of cease fires, flaunting every resolution from the UN, and MONTHS of warnings and time to move any WMD or program- we had plenty of proof. How many terrorists did Iraq have to pay money to? How much support of terrorisim do you let them get away with?

They are not subject to the addage of innocent until proven guilty-

you seem to want to apply US citizen principles to world issues or foreign people- it doesn't work that way. They don't get the innocent until proven guilty anymore than foreign NON-uniformed terrorist get the protection of OUR Constitution.

[SacTown Chronic]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

do you ever get tired of offering these excuses, justifications or finger pointing at anyone BUT your party?

If by excuses you mean an honest recollection of the events between 9/11 and the Iraqi invasion, no, I'll never stop telling the truth.

The dems weren't helpless, they were spineless. Considering the climate at the time, it would have been political suicide to speak out against attacking Iraq. That shouldn't have stopped them from doing the right thing but it did.

Do you remember the congresswoman from Oakland, California and the hell she went through when she voted against giving Bush the authority to go to war? Ugly stuff. Let's face it, this country is full of people who feel better about themselves when America is kicking somebody's ass.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

If by excuses you mean an honest recollection of the events between 9/11 and the Iraqi invasion, no, I'll never stop telling the truth.

The dems weren't helpless, they were spineless. Considering the climate at the time, it would have been political suicide to speak out against attacking Iraq. That shouldn't have stopped them from doing the right thing but it did.

Do you remember the congresswoman from Oakland, California and the hell she went through when she voted against giving Bush the authority to go to war? Ugly stuff. Let's face it, this country is full of people who feel better about themselves when America is kicking somebody's ass.

What you call the truth I call partisan hysteria and manipulation.

[Name]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

you seem to want to apply US citizen principles to world issues or foreign people- it doesn't work that way. They don't get the innocent until proven guilty anymore than foreign NON-uniformed terrorist get the protection of OUR Constitution.

I like to believe that the US citizens principles are principles that many of us strive to live by, and not just use when it is convinient to us. And the only concern I have about not living our principles outlined in the constitution and considering them when dealing with NON-uniformed individuals that may or may not be terrorists is at that point we are no longer living by those principles, and living a lie. We then become arrogant, and better then the rest of the world. Which is also a lie, for this country was founded on the idea that all men are created equal, no matter on what the citizenship.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Name

I like to believe that the US citizens principles are principles that many of us strive to live by, and not just use when it is convinient to us.

Bingo. This country spouts how great our morals and values are, but refuses to apply them in our dealings with the rest of the world. What does that say about those values?

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Bingo. This country spouts how great our morals and values are, but refuses to apply them in our dealings with the rest of the world. What does that say about those values?

Because it's not a value- it's a standard of justice applied to US citizens entitled to certain legal protections as citizens.

[Name]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Because it's not a value- it's a standard of justice applied to US citizens entitled to certain legal protections as citizens.

I guess I don't understand values then. I see it as a value, all the principles in the bill of rights. That was the whole reason they were put in, because they were the values that the people held and hold true.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Name

I guess I don't understand values then. I see it as a value, all the principles in the bill of rights. That was the whole reason they were put in, because they were the values that the people held and hold true.

Agreed. If they don't apply to everyone, then why are they important at all?

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Name

I like to believe that the US citizens principles are principles that many of us strive to live by, and not just use when it is convinient to us. And the only concern I have about not living our principles outlined in the constitution and considering them when dealing with NON-uniformed individuals that may or may not be terrorists is at that point we are no longer living by those principles, and living a lie. We then become arrogant, and better then the rest of the world. Which is also a lie, for this country was founded on the idea that all men are created equal, no matter on what the citizenship.

all men may be created equal- all men are NOT subject to our justice standard of innocent until proven guilty.

[SacTown Chronic]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

They are not subject to the addage of innocent until proven guilty-

you seem to want to apply US citizen principles to world issues or foreign people- it doesn't work that way. They don't get the innocent until proven guilty anymore than foreign NON-uniformed terrorist get the protection of OUR Constitution.

You don't think guilt should be established before engaging in the heretofore un-American act of unprovoked aggression? Yikes!