Another reason for me to not like the current Pope

[Snowflake]

Tref, and all, please continue.
I'm finding this to be a fascinating discussion. I don't know Jack about Popes and less about the present one. I confess (at least I'm in the correct thread for confession) that I do find at least the persona of the present pope less appealing than John Paul II (at least his public face and persona was great). When he (JP, II) came to SF in 1987 (I think it was) I was among the crowds getting a peek at the pope.

[flippyshark]

One thing that the four gospels certainly don't contain is first person testimony. If you look at them, you'll see that they don't even pretend to. (None of them are written in the form of first-person recollections.) They were composed (in many cases compiled) over a long period of time, collecting oral traditions and earlier texts in response to the needs of numerous early church sects. Even the names attached to their titles come from tradition, and not from any claim within the texts themselves.

Scholars (a reasonable consensus of them) consider Mark the earliest of the canonical gospels, and Matthew and Luke are very clearly rewritten and re-edited versions of Mark, containing big chunks of identical passages, which is precisely what we would not find if they were independently written testimonies. The authors of Matthew and Luke had theological reasons for making their additions and subtractions to the text. They were serving different early church communities, who all had different local traditions and theological preferences. The later gospel of John is radically different from these three, and contains a far more developed theology. There is plenty of internal evidence for all of this, and it's loads of fun to ferret out.

The early Christian communities were nothing if not diverse, with major sects favoring rival traditions, (Pauline vs. Petrine for instance) and the understanding of exactly who Jesus was (his Christology) was in constant dispute. Catholic orthodoxy emerged slowly from these communities, and ultimately succeeded in the marketplace. So, they got to establish the official canon, no doubt redacting the materials a bit in the process. (There's lots of internal evidence of this in the texts as well.) I don't begrudge them. I think they actually did pick out the best texts. (Have you read any of the gnostic and Nag Hamadi literature? I would have left it out too.)

New Testament criticism is one of my favorite topics/hobbies - I'm not a believer (though I once was), but I find the topic endlessly fascinating. There are lots of good books out there, based on scholarly research, and there's loads of crap in the more sensationalistic "Holy Blood Holy Grail" vein. I prefer to skip the speculative stuff.

Earlier in this thread, mousepod posted a link to "The God Who Wasn't There." One of my favorite scholars appears in that documentary - Robert M. Price. He's worth reading, and he has a regular Sunday podcast called The Bible Geek, in which he answers questions about the scriptures and the origins of the varioius faith traditions. He favors the view that Jesus himself is a legendary figure, but he gives all points of view a fair hearing, and his breadth of knowledge is stunning. Also, he's a very funny guy. You can find him at www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/

gosh, I was just going to post a sentence or two - oh well

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Tref

However, I also want to know the history. The real story. The dirty laundry. The scoop on the apostles and all their foibles. And for that I went to bookstores.

The thing I believe is that we will never know the absolute true history. Any religion (Catholicism, Judaism, Paganism, etc.) is simply a belief system. The Bible is gospel (fact) if one chooses to believe it true. And I am not knocking that detail (I have my own beliefs), just stating what I believe to be true.

Originally Posted by Tref

To Kevy Baby. That is just not true. No old white men have stripped the Bible of anything. In fact, people will often point to the contradictions of the Gospels as proof of its unauthenticity, when, in fact, the very nature of the Gospels contradictions with each other is proof they were never touched, fixed, or otherwise altered from their original text.

It IS true for me as well as many others. And our truth is no more or less truthful than anyone else's. There is available reputable scholarly research that supports what I stated. Some may not agree with it and I cannot dispute that belief (just as one may not agree with my beliefs). But to me, it is all about belief, not true, irrefutable fact.

Originally Posted by Tref

Despites the jokes, the Church is not run by people who want to profit by what they are doing. They are people who have totally devoted themselves body & soul to praising God.

Unfortunately, the church has been (IMO) severely harmed by scandals involving not only financial scandal, but more recently by sexual scandals. I am sure that most of the people involved with the Church have pure intentions, but unfortunately the church has been oft harmed by the minority.

Originally Posted by Tref

Anyway, I hope I haven't offended. I have a rule -- never talk religion. And I broke that rule in a big way this afternoon. And while nothing personally offends me at all, I just thought I'd stick up for the Pope. Things weren't looking to good for him in here.

And I admire your dedication and conviction. One of the things I LOVE about the LoT is that we can disagree on certain issues, but still remain a close group. Never be afraid to speak your mind around here!

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Snowflake

I don't know Jack about Popes...

Maybe we need a Pope named Jack. Pope Jack. Hmmm...

[katiesue]

On a somewhat related note. I'm looking into getting tickets to the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition here in San Deigo for the Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving if anyone would like to join.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by Tref

He'll squint his eyes and an evil smile will break on his face. "Right?" He'll ask. "Am I right?"

And the poor old folks in the front row will squeak, "R-i-ight?"

"WRONG!" the pastor will scream. "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" Then he'll slap his head several times, or beat his giant paws on the podium. "What is wrong with you my Catholic people? How many times must I teach this?"

Wow! That sounds thoroughly unpleasant, not to mention borderline cruel. I hope you don't mind me asking, but, do you prefer this style of homily over a gentler kind? Is this more authoritative style reassuring, or would you be happier if he didn't do this? I would be running for the exits.

[Morrigoon]

Ooh, that sounds like fun KatieSue!

[Prudence]

Early Christian sects, Nag Hammadi texts.... there are now several of you that, should I chance to meet you in person, will be forced to discuss these things with me. You have been warned.

(I've read part of the Gospel of Nicodemus as translated into Old English! Could I be any geekier?)

[Morrigoon]

I could loan you my copy of the Gospel of Judas...

[alphabassettgrrl]

Originally Posted by katiesue

On a somewhat related note. I'm looking into getting tickets to the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition here in San Deigo for the Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving if anyone would like to join.

One more thing that's trying to lure me to SD! I would love to see the scrolls. I've read a book that had translated excerpts of them and I'm looking for a more complete version.