Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (SPOILERS)

innerSpaceman · 07-26-2007, 05:05 PM

* * * * *

Ok, the big finale at the Ministry of Magic had some big changes. Some for the better, others not so much.

Chernabog felt they rushed getting into the Prophesy Warehouse, and I’m sure it was done to keep the momentum going. If I were a filmmaker, I’m sure I would be tempted to move from the excitement of flying Thestrals right to the excitement in the Prophesy Warehouse to keep the action pumping for the entire finale.

But I rather liked the book’s spooky explorations of the Department of Mysteries, though I’m not sure how well it would have translated to film, or how previewing rooms you would later stage fight scenes in would play in a movie. But I loved the Brains Room, and the Time Room, and felt showing them really informed what was going on in the Veil of Death Room. I guess it saved 7 minutes to have Bellatrix kill Sirius with Aveda Kadavera, rather than using a tour of the full Department of Mysteries insinuate the idea that the veiled Archway was involved in a study of the "great beyond." But if Bella was going to kill Sirius outright, what need was there for the Archway at all? It was superfluous, and I definitely think it was handled way better in the book.

Harry’s grief and confusion was better in the book, too. I hate the yelling-in-silence, covered-by-music constantly used in films to depict grief. It’s as if they don’t want to take the chance the actors’ screaming and raving will come off funny instead of tragic. But I think Daniel Radcliffe could have pulled it off (he did something similar in Prisoner of Azkaban quite effectively).

And while I’m at it, I’m sorry they used a "plasma" Archway in the movie, looking like something out of Star Trek, rather than the black material, literal Veil depicted in the book.

And yeah, I would have loved for them to have kept the freak Death Eater accident that happened with the bell jar in the time room. He ended up with a shrieking baby’s head on a grown man’s body ... and I think that would have been really bitchin in the movie. Oh well.

BUT ... the rest of the sequence was, imo, much better in the film version. Certainly the prophesy balls crashing was even more impressively realized than J.K. wrote it. And there’s not a doubt in my mind that Death Eaters getting around by transforming to black smoke, while Phoenix Orderers do so with white mist was better than the book. Rowling simply had them running around. Literally running. It was waaay cooler, visually, to have the smoke and mist stuff. That was wicked cool.

Jazzman complained about Dumbledore’s wizard duel with Voldemort, but it was pretty much exactly as Rowling described in the book, except that the "Wizards and Friends" statue was not magically animated. I dunno whether that would have looked cool on film or not. As sage a director as Stanley Kubrick decided not to take Stephen King’s animated topiaries literally in his version of "The Shining" - opting instead for the spooky hedge maze. Kubrick might have thought the moving topiaries which worked on the page would look hokey when brought to the screen. If the Harry Potter filmmakers had similar reservations about the Wizard’s Duel, I will not dispute the wisdom of their choice.

In all other respects, the duel itself was better in the movie. Harry’s subsequent "possession" by Voldemort was infinitely better in the film. There was really nothing to it in the novel. Voldemort took over Harry for all of two seconds. It was explained later by Dumbledore that Voldie had to get out of there in a hurry because he felt icky with the love in Harry’s heart. Bah. The movie version was eons better.

Likewise, hearing the prophesy in the over-long denouement in Dumbledore’s office would have been impossibly tedious in the film. It was much better to chuck the book’s conception of prophesies being heard when their crystal ball breaks, and have it heard - in Sybil Trelawney’s own voice - when Harry picks it up. This way, the audience can sort of grasp what’s at stake when the Death Eaters want the ball. There’s no clue what’s going on in the book!

And there’s no reasonable cause for complaint just because the entire prophesy could not be heard in the film. The part not heard is not important.

Spoiler:

The entire prophesy goes like this:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

So what if they dropped all the stuff about being born in July or born to parents that defied Voldemort three times? That’s all part of the red herring about Neville Longbottom that, in the book, Dumbledore discounts four seconds after tells the prophesy to Harry ... noting that the Dark Lord marking him makes the prophesy about Harry and none other.

Yeah, there’s the nagging bit that, in the movie, it’s never revealed just why Voldemort wants the prophesy so desperately in the first place. I guess the filmmakers might have made something up, but they couldn’t use J.K. Rowling’s reason because not only did it not apply to the film version of the story ... it was completely absurd and unworkable in any event.

In the novel, Voldemort knows only the part of the prophesy that was heard in the film (his minions overheard that part at the Hogs Head Inn when Trelawney was interviewing with Dumbledore for the Divinations post at Hogwarts). He wants to hear the rest of it. But since the red herring half of the prophesy has been chucked from the film series as a waste of time, that can’t really be Voldemort’s motive. Worse still, it’s never satisfactorily explained in the book why Voldemort needed Harry to get the prophesy for him.

The prophesy is about The Dark Lord and Harry Potter. Says so on the label. Either one can retrieve the record of it from the warehouse. But J.K. posits that Voldemort was afraid to venture into the Ministry of Magic ... even though he decides to go there once Harry Potter is on the scene. He goes through Machiavellian machinations to get Harry Potter there to retrieve the prophesy only to show up there himself because he’s succeeded in getting Harry Potter there to retrieve the prophesy. Once there, Voldemoret could retrieve the prophesy for his own self, without taking hostages or taking chances that its container will break. This is one of Rowling absolutely stupidest constructions ... and the movie was wise to drop it.

All in all, though the movie version lacks the atmospherics of exploring the Department of Mysteries, and handles the death of Sirius Black in less than stellar fashion ... the battle between the Death Eaters and Order Members, the Wizards Duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort, the revelation of the Prophesy, and the Possession of Harry Potter by Voldemort are all conveyed far better in the film than in the novel. When the dust settles from the respective finales, I think the movie has slight edge. At the very least, I can’t say they did a horrible adaptation.

And so, in the first of the books whose burgeoning length required some serious story adaptation for transfer to the screen, I think the makers of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix did an admirable job.

Eliza Hodgkins 1812 · 07-26-2007, 07:03 PM

Holy crap, I agree with nearly every single point iSM makes about a Harry Potter film and book. Wonders never cease.

You seem to have expertly covered everything, Steve. I'll just add that I think the movie improved on how Cho's relationship was handled, and I think it was more interesting (and sad/tragic) to have her betray the DA because of Veritaserum than it was having it be her friend... Plus, it eliminated how nasty Hermione was in the book by ridding itself of the curse Hermione used on Cho's friend - that never sat right with me.

And I totally dug the movie Gwarp. HATED that entire sequence in the book. Snore, snore, snoring.

And though I too missed the actually missed of the Department of Mysteries, I think on celluloid some of that stuff would have just looked cheesy. Whereas the wizarding battle once the Auror's arrived? WOAH. Way more fun to watch then read. Sirius decking Malfoy - yes! And since [SPOILER WARNING FOR DEATHLY HALLOWS]

Spoiler:

Another side note spoiler for DH...

Spoiler:

The acting was probably at its finest in this film. Definitely as good if not better than PoA and WAY better than Goblet of Fire, my least favorite of the movies.

Alan Rickman looked less like a grandma and more like the Snape I like to imagine. Naked. In my bed. With me also being naked. And in my bed.

Snowflake · 07-27-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

* * * * *

And while I’m at it, I’m sorry they used a "plasma" Archway in the movie, looking like something out of Star Trek, rather than the black material, literal Veil depicted in the book.

This would have been an ideal point to add Joan Collins as Bellatrix, given the Star Trek reference.....

Kevy Baby · 07-28-2007, 11:52 PM

OK, so I am really late to this game. Susan and I saw it tonight. I have to say that this has been my favorite of the HP movies to date. To me, this OOTP was the best translation to film - and the story most in need of a visual interpretation.

One of the first things I mentioned to Susan afterwards was that this movie was too short - it needed about another 10-20 minutes. But overall, it played well, not getting hung up on extraneous detail. One of the items I would have liked to see more of was Helena Bonham Carter's Bellatrix LeStrange. I don't recall how much Bell LeS was in the book: I just wanted more of HBC!

The casting of ALL the HP movies is in my opinion, the single best thing about the series. From the original casting (Hermione was frikken PERFECT in the first movie) up to Luna and Umbridge. I continue to be blown away by the choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Those Weasley twins are getting cuter every year.

(I could have added a lot of others' quotes as well.)

I must be missing something because to me the boys looked MUCH less attractive in this film. To me, they looked like they were beat hard with an ugly stick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Yes, the main trio was at its absolute worst. There was really nothing to it this time out. That's the story, sorry. The filmmakers didn't write it. Despite that, with so very little to do, Rupert Grint comes off the best he has in the entire series. And I think there's enough Harry and Hermoine to match up with any of the entries.

S and I overheard others mention a lack of chemistry amongst the trio and she and I discussed it. We both felt that any more play-up of the bonds that they share would be overkill. It has already been strongly established in the previous films - we get the point. I think it played well: the bond was there and you knew it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Emma Watson is thankfully beautiful again (and she's legal now, isn't she??).

See my current signature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

They managed to put lots of stuff from the book in the background (so familiar readers could spot it and smile, while not bogging down the proceedings with unnecessary detail).

One of the better aspects of the film!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prudence

zomg the cat plates!

The cat plates were freakin' awesome. Just the right amount of subtle comic comic relief (I mean c'mon - who isn't infected with "awww" ness when you hear a kitten mew?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Then again, the novel was written in 2002 ... and I doubt much prescience was needed to project the trajectory of the Blair and Bush regimes. Perhaps Rowling had no specifics in mind .... and perhaps she did.

If I recall correctly, JKR was going through some legal battles over accused plagiarism when she was writing this book. I don't recall the details, but that sticks in my brain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

My understanding at the time is that that the cat that went through the cat door was going to warn Umbridge and that is how she caught them in her office. Is that correct?

That was my take as well.

wendybeth · 07-28-2007, 11:58 PM

Now, see- I just thought that kitty was getting outta Dodge. Kitties are smart that way.

07-26-2007, 05:05 PM	#1
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	* * * * * Ok, the big finale at the Ministry of Magic had some big changes. Some for the better, others not so much. Chernabog felt they rushed getting into the Prophesy Warehouse, and I’m sure it was done to keep the momentum going. If I were a filmmaker, I’m sure I would be tempted to move from the excitement of flying Thestrals right to the excitement in the Prophesy Warehouse to keep the action pumping for the entire finale. But I rather liked the book’s spooky explorations of the Department of Mysteries, though I’m not sure how well it would have translated to film, or how previewing rooms you would later stage fight scenes in would play in a movie. But I loved the Brains Room, and the Time Room, and felt showing them really informed what was going on in the Veil of Death Room. I guess it saved 7 minutes to have Bellatrix kill Sirius with Aveda Kadavera, rather than using a tour of the full Department of Mysteries insinuate the idea that the veiled Archway was involved in a study of the "great beyond." But if Bella was going to kill Sirius outright, what need was there for the Archway at all? It was superfluous, and I definitely think it was handled way better in the book. Harry’s grief and confusion was better in the book, too. I hate the yelling-in-silence, covered-by-music constantly used in films to depict grief. It’s as if they don’t want to take the chance the actors’ screaming and raving will come off funny instead of tragic. But I think Daniel Radcliffe could have pulled it off (he did something similar in Prisoner of Azkaban quite effectively). And while I’m at it, I’m sorry they used a "plasma" Archway in the movie, looking like something out of Star Trek, rather than the black material, literal Veil depicted in the book. And yeah, I would have loved for them to have kept the freak Death Eater accident that happened with the bell jar in the time room. He ended up with a shrieking baby’s head on a grown man’s body ... and I think that would have been really bitchin in the movie. Oh well. BUT ... the rest of the sequence was, imo, much better in the film version. Certainly the prophesy balls crashing was even more impressively realized than J.K. wrote it. And there’s not a doubt in my mind that Death Eaters getting around by transforming to black smoke, while Phoenix Orderers do so with white mist was better than the book. Rowling simply had them running around. Literally running. It was waaay cooler, visually, to have the smoke and mist stuff. That was wicked cool. Jazzman complained about Dumbledore’s wizard duel with Voldemort, but it was pretty much exactly as Rowling described in the book, except that the "Wizards and Friends" statue was not magically animated. I dunno whether that would have looked cool on film or not. As sage a director as Stanley Kubrick decided not to take Stephen King’s animated topiaries literally in his version of "The Shining" - opting instead for the spooky hedge maze. Kubrick might have thought the moving topiaries which worked on the page would look hokey when brought to the screen. If the Harry Potter filmmakers had similar reservations about the Wizard’s Duel, I will not dispute the wisdom of their choice. In all other respects, the duel itself was better in the movie. Harry’s subsequent "possession" by Voldemort was infinitely better in the film. There was really nothing to it in the novel. Voldemort took over Harry for all of two seconds. It was explained later by Dumbledore that Voldie had to get out of there in a hurry because he felt icky with the love in Harry’s heart. Bah. The movie version was eons better. Likewise, hearing the prophesy in the over-long denouement in Dumbledore’s office would have been impossibly tedious in the film. It was much better to chuck the book’s conception of prophesies being heard when their crystal ball breaks, and have it heard - in Sybil Trelawney’s own voice - when Harry picks it up. This way, the audience can sort of grasp what’s at stake when the Death Eaters want the ball. There’s no clue what’s going on in the book! And there’s no reasonable cause for complaint just because the entire prophesy could not be heard in the film. The part not heard is not important. Spoiler: I have no problem with them dropping red herrings that don’t pan out in the story, and the vague hint that the prophesy could have been referring to Neville Longbottom now turns out to have never played out in the book series The entire prophesy goes like this: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..." So what if they dropped all the stuff about being born in July or born to parents that defied Voldemort three times? That’s all part of the red herring about Neville Longbottom that, in the book, Dumbledore discounts four seconds after tells the prophesy to Harry ... noting that the Dark Lord marking him makes the prophesy about Harry and none other. Yeah, there’s the nagging bit that, in the movie, it’s never revealed just why Voldemort wants the prophesy so desperately in the first place. I guess the filmmakers might have made something up, but they couldn’t use J.K. Rowling’s reason because not only did it not apply to the film version of the story ... it was completely absurd and unworkable in any event. In the novel, Voldemort knows only the part of the prophesy that was heard in the film (his minions overheard that part at the Hogs Head Inn when Trelawney was interviewing with Dumbledore for the Divinations post at Hogwarts). He wants to hear the rest of it. But since the red herring half of the prophesy has been chucked from the film series as a waste of time, that can’t really be Voldemort’s motive. Worse still, it’s never satisfactorily explained in the book why Voldemort needed Harry to get the prophesy for him. The prophesy is about The Dark Lord and Harry Potter. Says so on the label. Either one can retrieve the record of it from the warehouse. But J.K. posits that Voldemort was afraid to venture into the Ministry of Magic ... even though he decides to go there once Harry Potter is on the scene. He goes through Machiavellian machinations to get Harry Potter there to retrieve the prophesy only to show up there himself because he’s succeeded in getting Harry Potter there to retrieve the prophesy. Once there, Voldemoret could retrieve the prophesy for his own self, without taking hostages or taking chances that its container will break. This is one of Rowling absolutely stupidest constructions ... and the movie was wise to drop it. All in all, though the movie version lacks the atmospherics of exploring the Department of Mysteries, and handles the death of Sirius Black in less than stellar fashion ... the battle between the Death Eaters and Order Members, the Wizards Duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort, the revelation of the Prophesy, and the Possession of Harry Potter by Voldemort are all conveyed far better in the film than in the novel. When the dust settles from the respective finales, I think the movie has slight edge. At the very least, I can’t say they did a horrible adaptation. And so, in the first of the books whose burgeoning length required some serious story adaptation for transfer to the screen, I think the makers of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix did an admirable job. Last edited by innerSpaceman : 07-26-2007 at 05:18 PM.
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07-26-2007, 07:03 PM	#2
Eliza Hodgkins 1812 Sputnik Sweetheart Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Long Beach Posts: 2,685	Holy crap, I agree with nearly every single point iSM makes about a Harry Potter film and book. Wonders never cease. You seem to have expertly covered everything, Steve. I'll just add that I think the movie improved on how Cho's relationship was handled, and I think it was more interesting (and sad/tragic) to have her betray the DA because of Veritaserum than it was having it be her friend... Plus, it eliminated how nasty Hermione was in the book by ridding itself of the curse Hermione used on Cho's friend - that never sat right with me. And I totally dug the movie Gwarp. HATED that entire sequence in the book. Snore, snore, snoring. And though I too missed the actually missed of the Department of Mysteries, I think on celluloid some of that stuff would have just looked cheesy. Whereas the wizarding battle once the Auror's arrived? WOAH. Way more fun to watch then read. Sirius decking Malfoy - yes! And since [SPOILER WARNING FOR DEATHLY HALLOWS] Spoiler: nothing really ever came of the veil, there was no harm in having Bellatrix kill Sirius with the Avada Kedavra curse. And, honestly, better a killing curse then a windmill fall through a **ing curtain. Another side note spoiler for DH... Spoiler:** I also thought it was a nice touch having Snape mention in front of Potter that Cho drank Veritaserum. I could be reading into things, but in lieu of Snape's own past/regrets, that's almost looks like a kindness on hnis part. The acting was probably at its finest in this film. Definitely as good if not better than PoA and WAY better than Goblet of Fire, my least favorite of the movies. Alan Rickman looked less like a grandma and more like the Snape I like to imagine. Naked. In my bed. With me also being naked. And in my bed.
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07-28-2007, 11:58 PM	#5
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	Now, see- I just thought that kitty was getting outta Dodge. Kitties are smart that way. __________________
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