Kid suspended for drawing a gun

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

It's telling ALL students, not just this one, that they will not be listened to, that they need to be afraid that what they might say or express will get them in trouble. That, to me, is the kind of thing that leads to Columbine.

I hear you. The Columbine shooters were bullied and were not backed up by the school officials. Then they snapped and committed horrendous crimes. I think the people that were not letting them express themselves were their classmates. There was a lot of bullying going on, from what I remember. (I'm not justifying what they did. They were wackos.)
There were warning signs with Columbine and those signs were ignored. I'd rather a school be diligent about these warning signs than ignore them.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

There were warning signs with Columbine and those signs were ignored. I'd rather a school be diligent about these warning signs than ignore them.

You're getting locked into "Columbine" as the only example. There are plenty of others where bullying wasn't the issue. The only real constant between any of them was that the perpetrators were in desperate need of help and didn't get it for one reason or another.

Blindly suspending students for expression is not diligence. It's simply the other end of the spectrum from completely ignoring it. It's, "We're incapable of treating you as an individual, so we're just going to hope the problem just goes away." Bad bad news.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

You're getting locked into "Columbine" as the only example. There are plenty of others where bullying wasn't the issue. The only real constant between any of them was that the perpetrators were in desperate need of help and didn't get it for one reason or another.

Blindly suspending students for expression is not diligence. It's simply the other end of the spectrum from completely ignoring it. It's, "We're incapable of treating you as an individual, so we're just going to hope the problem just goes away." Bad bad news.

I use Columbine as an example because it was one of the worst events dealing with students and guns. It was and is a huge deal. People are still debating about the incident.

I think this has little to do with expression and the censorship thereof. It was inappropriate and the kid was rapped for it. It's not a blind suspension, it was seen as a threat. They dealt with it.

I come from a law enforcement family as well. Things like this are very black and white for me. Maybe it shouldn't be but it is.

I found Ally's post interesting because my dad (police sargeant for 30 years or so) does not want me to get a gun. He has many, but doesn't think and of his kids should have them. Ralphie's father insisted upon us having them.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

They dealt with it.

Indeed... what I think they're trying to say, though, is that just "dealing"-- booting a kid, without counseling or communication-- is not a sufficient way to deal with a problem.

(That said, in this situation we don't actually know if they didn't communicate or counsel, do we?)

As a completely hypothetical, though, if the child was suspended without attempt to discuss the situation openly and honestly, I would say that is not "dealing" at all, but rather, pushing a problem out of site without dealing with it.

[AllyOops!]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I found Ally's post interesting because my dad (police sargeant for 30 years or so) does not want me to get a gun. He has many, but doesn't think and of his kids should have them. Ralphie's father insisted upon us having them.

I should clarify a little bit more:

Both my dad and grandfather (my dad, a Deputy & my late grandfather, a former Reserve) are & were pro-gun ownership. Mainly, because they always needed to have one. My Dad still does. My Mom, also part of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. is against them. Because I grew up with my Mom, we never had one in the house. They were totally forbidden. My boyfriend's dad is a Police Sergeant as well, and I'm interested to know his feelings, so I'll have to ask.

I once dated an Undercover Narcotics Detective who was and had to be packing at all times. It made me extremely uncomfotable. Silly as it may sound, I was afraid he would hug me too tight, the safety would pop-off and boo-ya! Goodnight, Ally. I could always feel the gun when he hugged me (which answers the age old question if he was really happy to see me ). If it wasn't his hidden badge, it was the gun. Nobody wants to feel that on their skin in any circumstance. Creepy, no?

Also, a main point- my Dad did not insist on the guns until a prowler was found on our property. He wanted to make sure that I was protected. I don't feel the need to have one. However, does it make me feel a bit safer knowing it's there? I'd be lying if I said "no".

Oddly, I also feel unsafe at times knowing it's there. I'm always panicked some sort of accident can happen. However, if I truly didn't want it, I could rid myself of it. It's there on a "just-in-case-but-I-PRAY-I NEVER-need-it-EVER basis. I mean, you won't find me polishing it and Wyatt Earping in front of the mirror. You'd never know I even had one. That's the way I want it. It's NOT a toy or a trophy.

Guns are a loaded issue (no pun intended). It's all about personal opinion. And of course, being a responsible and law-abiding gun owner. My Dad wouldn't have given me one if I would have been a hot-headed, act-on-impulse, troubled and reckless individual who thrived on bullying and fighting. He knows his daughter is a big ol' fraidy cat who doesn't like to kill household spiders. I prefer that they are "set free". Born free, as free as the wind blows, lil' fellas.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by AllyOops!

Also, a main point- my Dad did not insist on the guns until a prowler was found on our property. He wanted to make sure that I was protected. I don't feel the need to have one. However, does it make me feel a bit safer knowing it's there? I'd be lying if I said "no".

If the same incident happened to our family, he'd probably change his mind and issue us all firearms.

[AllyOops!]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

If the same incident happened to our family, he'd probably change his mind and issue us all firearms.

I forgot to mention, too, that the gun has caused me a few scary nightmares (when I first got it).

I once dreamt that it engaged and fired the bullet right at me. The bullet moved in slo-mo Matrix style and I woke up right before it hit. I swear, I almost wanted to empty the chamber and go bury it right then & there.

However, I also dreamt once that I was walking down my staircase and as I approached the family room, I could hear & see gun brandishing thugs tying up my family and threatening to kill them. I pulled my gun out of the back of my jeans (no, seriously, aside from the movies & TV, who's keepin' it there? ) and I could feel myself fill with dread and panic wondering if I had the stones to fire it. Wondering if I'd miss. Wondering if I'd be fired at first. Wondering that if, even in self-defense, how would I live knowing I'd taken a life?

As my dream/nightmare continued, somebody finally spotted me, raised their gun toward me and I fired. First. Me and my family's safety was the bottom line.

I woke up sick to my stomach. I ask myself all of the questions that I asked myself in my nightmare in real life, so I'm sure that's why I dreamt it.

Seriously, I think I need to just ditch my gun & go live in the Alps. HeidiOops!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Source


Source

The schools in the state may be on alert because of issues like these above. Maybe that's why the punishment seems harsh. In context with stories like these (granted the 2nd story doesn't say if it's the students or not) I find what the school did to that kid to be just.

Because other people have done awful things, otherwise innocent people are persecuted. Sounds really familiar to me.

In any case, you've already answered the question regarding the hypothetical, and you believe that suspension teaches the appropriate lessons, so there's not much more to be said. I totally disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Distrust, yes. But are you emotionally scarred by the incident and more likely to become a Columbine-esque murderer because of it? I'm thinking, no. But you do remember the suspension, don't you?

I'm surprised at this response. In reading Erica's post again -

Originally Posted by blueerica

My biggest problem was how angry I felt toward the school administration for my seemingly excessive punishment in relation to my crime. Had I been having other issues who knows where it could have led. It was in my senior year of high school, and I still carry a distrust of authority that I have no doubt was only affirmed by my incident.

She didn't say that she learned that the prank was wrong, she said she learned that schools punish pranks excessively, and that if she had other issues with authority, it would have made things worse. I fully agree with this.

Originally Posted by GC

Because I didn't do messed up things.

Thing is, I did messed up things. I didn't want to bring this up but here goes....I once wrote a threat, regarding a teacher, on a desk in pencil. I said I wanted to kick him in the balls. Yeah, not smart. I had an odd communication with a kid in the same classroom at a different period, writing pencil notes on the desk. The other kid said they wanted to bring in a gun and kill the teacher, and I said I'd kick him in the balls.

OH MY GOODNESS, OBVIOUSLY THESE CHILDREN ARE A DANGER TO THOSE AROUND THEM!!! OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE GOING TO KILL PEOPLE!!!

I can't speak for the other girl, whom I met later. She had many other warning signs floating around her. I'm sure she could have benefitted from a talk (not a talking TO, but a counseling session). I, however, had never been in trouble before. I had never been in the principal's office. I had never been suspended. But here I was, sobbing in the office, because they were coming down hard on me, and I had no prior experience in dealing with them.

I was suspended for a day. I didn't care about that - it was all about having to tell my parents such a dumb story and having to face the wrath of the staff. I didn't care about my record that much, as I was never the college-bound type.

Thing was, the teacher deserved a kick in the balls, since he was a total prick. Not that I would have ever done such a thing. I've never purposely kicked anyone in the balls, not even my annoying brothers in the middle of a wrestling match. It's not something I would do.

Thinking on it now, I realize what I learned from that situation. People think about doing awful things their whole lives....they may despise their coworkers, their family may drive them crazy, they may hate their spouse or their boss or their local mailman.....but we have to pretend we don't feel these things. We have to bottle this crap up and smile and eat sh.t. We need to keep our conflicting emotions and needs inside until it eats the bottom out of our stomachs. We have to bend our values in order to lick the ass of the alpha person in our committee. All of this starts with the institution called school, where we learn how all institutions work. There is no room for honesty in such an environment - only for compliance.

I could not act out against the charlatans of the school environment. I had no recourse. I was stuck in the system and if the teacher was incompetent or apathetic or just a power-hungry prick I still had to visit their little show every day for 9 months. I did my share of changing classes and bringing mom in to get me shifted about but in the end, you're going to have some jerks, and if it's not the teachers, it's the administration.

My bottled rage came out in drawings and writings and yes, scribbled threats. Seeing as how I'd never have the nerve to break the "no Discmans" rule, it was pretty obvious that my drawings involving voodoo dolls and hangman's nooses weren't going to come to fruition. My frustrations are as real as anyone else's on this planet, and just as suppressed.

Back on topic, slightly - if I had not been able to express myself at all in doodles, wherever they land on the scale of wrongness, my rage would have grown. My frustration with the system would have grown. My need to act out would have grown.

Suppression is suppression and it doesn't bode well.

One more thing, GC - I've asked before, where does it end? Where do you draw the line as something that's ok to draw on your homework? When is it time to tattle, to persecute, to control?

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by AllyOops!

[font="Georgia"]

Also, a main point- my Dad did not insist on the guns until a prowler was found on our property. He wanted to make sure that I was protected. I don't feel the need to have one. However, does it make me feel a bit safer knowing it's there? I'd be lying if I said "no".

I, too, grew up with guns, but this is a reason to get an alarm system (or steal someone else's sign), not a gun. I find it odd that in this thread with all this pro-gun criticism of fear, fear, fear and the assumption that all adverse risk of a random Columbine situation must be eliminated, that there's no recognition that the pro-gun mentality is to a large extent about fear, fear, fear and the willingness to declare the pernicious societal consequences of gun worship acceptable and justified by the desire of each individual to protect himself from statistically unlikely random violence.

Now, I recognize that an alarm system is just a way to call in the folks with the guns and that the police only represent a delegation of power that we would be justified in exercising ourselves. Still, somewhere along the line, and perhaps only at the borders of where this issue is debated, gun ownership got unhealthily fetishized from the sad recognition of the need for self-protection to a worship of killing power.

Originally Posted by AllyOops!

[font="Georgia"]Oddly, I also feel unsafe at times knowing it's there.

Are you prepared to use it before it's taken from you and used against you? I saw this video where a fellow robbed a convenience store with a shotgun and set the shotgun down on the counter while he bagged the money that the clerk gave him. The clerk took the shotgun and pointed it at the guy. The guy ran out of the store. Ten seconds later, he came back, hopped the counter and started struggling for the shotgun before deciding to leave again. I guess he thought--to the extent he did think--that the clerk did not seem like the type to shoot him.

[AllyOops!]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Are you prepared to use it before it's taken from you and used against you? I saw this video where a fellow robbed a convenience store with a shotgun and set the shotgun down on the counter while he bagged the money that the clerk gave him. The clerk took the shotgun and pointed it at the guy. The guy ran out of the store. Ten seconds later, he came back, hopped the counter and started struggling for the shotgun before deciding to leave again. I guess he thought--to the extent he did think--that the clerk did not seem like the type to shoot him.

No, I don't believe you are truly ever prepared for a situation like that until it occurs and you are actually in the moment. I pray to God that I am never in it.

Every situation is different and you can't compare any of them. It's really easy to say "Oh, I would have said this, or done that" when you yourself are not immersed in the situation. I can honestly tell you that I have no clue how I would act when staring down the barell of a gun, or if I had the barell aimed at somebody else. Honestly? I don't ever want to find out. When your adrenaline is rushing, when it's a matter of life or death, it's a whole other ball of wax, so to speak.

So, yes, somebody might overpower me, turn my gun on me, and end my life, or leave me in a vegetative state. GOD FORBID.

Or, I might fire it in self-defense. I know that I couldn't live a normal life if I took somebody else's, even in self-defense. I know the type of person that I am and how sensitive I can be. Nobody enjoyes brandishing a weapon and threatening to use it. I know I would never want to!

But you know what? they should of thought of that risk before climbing into a window and deciding to inflict harm on somebody.

I have zero sympathy toward criminals who engage in this behavior. I'm certainly not angry, ranting or unleashing at anybody here, because everybody has a right to their opinion. It's criminal activity that gets my blood boiling.

There's no right answer to this. Because NOBODY knows what they would do unless they have been there, done it, and have lived to tell it.