Curious About Cult-ure

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

YEah, I was a Kid JW and my Dad is an Elder in the organization. Here are some insites I guess. Hopefully will add to what Alex already said.

Originally Posted by Alex

1) Internal Control:
Depends on how some of the terms are defined. Seemed a pretty egalitarian group overall but there is definitely a somewhat mysterious power organization at the top in the Watchtower Organization in New York. But at the local level I didn't see a lot of overt control.

The JW's have EXTREME control locally. You can almost liken it to almost a government type organization. There are those who oversee an area, say Southern California - then smaller districts containing a number of Halls - then the individual "Halls" that have Elders at the top and several other levels below them before you get to the congregation. They have been so controling, knowing this firsthand, my Mom after divorcing my Dad (who is an Elder) had to get a restraining order to prevent the JWs from harrasing us. In "Hanging" with my dad, I've overheard many conversations about issues in the organization and dealing with people that is just extremely controling. And having grown up in it, there's no doubt it is extremley controling.

2) External Control:

JW's explicitly eschew the worldly political process so to the extent that you are discouraged from participating there is a lot. But on the other hand, beyond fighting for their ability to do what they think it is right they generally leave everybody else alone. One thing about JW's, regardless of how they feel about it personally they'll never vote against gay marriage.

Somewhat/ mostly what you say is true. They don't get involved and basically everything external is just temporary so they don't give it anymore thought that teen's listening to thier parents.

3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s):
Pretty strong. Not infallible but presented as simply well educated and having seen through the dusty encrustation of two millennia of religious decay.

Of course, it holds that the bible is directly inspired by god, but pretty much all Christian faiths go with that idea.

YEah, whether it is Infallible or not doesn't matter from the outsiders view. They're right period.

4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members:

A lot of trust in the interpretation of leaders and this was something I was most uncomfortable with. Very little dogmatic discussion, just point to a cite and that is that.

Yes - all the material is pretty much printed and read from. The only time one has anytime of "Say" is when answering the questions given at the Meetings and if you're asked to give a "Talk." Oddly enough I have given them when I was I was young and there wasn't any type of check or censorship but I'm sure if someone said something outragious they'd be booted pretty fast. So other than the standards in questions and materials read from, there really isn't any "free thinking." IMHO

5) Dogma:
Yes, rigid.

6) Recruiting:
Yes, evangelical.

it's more about going out and telling everyone what the "truth" is and in every situation, getting people to go to the meetings and passing out the magazines. We're talking at work, at the store, school was encouraged and on and on.

7) Front Groups:
Not so far as I know, but if they're hidden I wouldn't.

Not really. It's pretty straight forward but it has a hierarchy

8) Wealth:
There was no mandatory financial participation though there were the standard contribution boxes in the Kingdom Halls. I'm sure there is plenty of money floating around but it isn't an ostentatious faith. If the leaders are living like royalty they kept it to themselves.

The participation is not mandatory but you will get "dinged" if you don't. Most of the money does cover the costs of printing and maintaining the Kingdom Halls - alot goes overseas, from what I understood. Sort of like the Salvation Army and the like - they do help those fellow Witness' that have been affected by disasters and hard times.

9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups:
I have no idea about the sexual politics of the group but I never saw it playing an official role. Never heard anything about "bad" sexual practices between married people and any sexual practices between unmarried people would be bad.

I don't they interfear with what people do in thier own homes. but it is very Man/Woman - dating is only in the organization and dates are shaparoned - so its pretty much like the sterotypical 50's 60's.

10) Sexual Favoritism:
It is a patriarchal organization but within most day-to-day operation surprisingly egalitarian in function.

11) Censorship:
None that I ever experienced. Watched TV and movies like everybody else. Could read whatever I wanted. To the extent that there is "censorship" it is probably passive in keeping you so busy that there isn't time for consuming a lot of popular culture (if you're really active you'll be spending 5 days a week involved in activities).

There is a lot of censorship. Naturally growing up, I got the brunt of this. Music was very sellective. TV and Movies also. I rarely went to the movies and when I did it was with the group. My comic book collection barely survived and there were many casualties along the way. If you were reading it was one of thier books or magazines.

12) Isolation:
My experience is that this varies a lot from person to person. I don't think there is a lot of formal pressure to isolate yourself but perhaps it is of a more passive type that I never really noticed.

And of course, there is the issue of being part of a very active specifically targetted social group that tends to exclude people. If you're book club meets six days a week and you have scheduled five hour trips to Barnes & Noble every Sunday then even without explicitly cutting out the non-readers you're not going to be spending a lot of time with them.

There is no socializing outside of the organization and if there is its going to school or a Job. Everything else is with people in the organization. Camping was with them or family. No school activities, although I did do a play once - big surprise. I'm sure I could disect those experiances with how I am today, but we'll save that.

13) Dropout Control:
My experience is that it is very easy to drop out. If you can take the sudden severing from the social group.

We'll depending. My mom was hurrased for months after the divorce went thru and all during that. Constant calls, visits and the such. But once you're out you are not acknowleged and members cannot talk or associate with you with the fear of being disfelloshiped as well.

14) Violence:
Never heard of any. JWs are pretty much a pacifistic group.

Yeah, true. My dad was - but I'm sure that had nothing to do with being a JW.

15) Paranoia:
A fair amount of this. Of course, it helps that there really was, and is, persecution. JWs were in the concentration camps with Jews and homosexuals under Hitler. Many countries have suppressed JWs. It is a strong Christian tradition to view antagonism as evidence of being on the right track.

But it isn't so much paranoia as reveling in it.

Yeah, that was a big thing. it's pointed out how in many countries JWs are killed, tortured and inprisoned for thier belief.

16) Grimness:
I suppose they'd be considered humorless. But I think it is more that they really don't care what outside groups think of them.

Not only do they don't care - its of absolute no concern at all. Everone else is going to hell and they're saved - is a way to put it.

17) Surrender of Will:
None that I experienced but this is another one where some people seem to have had a wildly difference experience than I did.

In a way - thinking about not being able to associate with those you want - read what you want etc. etc. I don't think people are prisoners but diffenetly don't have many liberties.

18) Hypocrisy:
I found this to be minimal. Again, if the leaders were living a different life then I didn't hear about it. But JWs have a very strong tradition of standing up for their beliefs in the face of some pretty serious confrontation, quite a few landmark First Amendment cases in the U.S. started because of JWs. And being conscientious objectors during WWI and WWII was not nearly so acceptable as it has become in recent wars.

Yes, and no -I think if anything went that far,it would have been delt with and the person dismissed. I know my dad curses, when it's "forbidden." I think it' smore on the lines of being human and making mistakes than anything.

Anyway, my experiance has been mostly a very negative one. I'm sure I could tell tons of stories. But, like in any organization, there were some really fine people who I personally really liked and enjoyed having as a friend. It was sad they had to believe as they did.

[Not Afraid]

My ex-SIL is a JW and my niece is currently one. What always shocked me about the JW culture is the amount of drinking that goes on. I have been to quite a few JW-infused events and there's a lot of alcohol served. Of course, I associate religion with abstinence, so I'm a bit skewed in that respect.


As for other applications......these are the ones that stuck me as things that are practiced in certain non-religious but familiar "forums":

1) Internal Control:
2) External Control:
3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s)
4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members:
5) Dogma:
6) Recruiting:
7) Front Groups: Maybe not so much in this case
8) Wealth:
9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups:
10) Sexual Favoritism:
11) Censorship:
12) Isolation:Yes, to a certain degree
13) Dropout Control:
14) Violence:
15) Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories. HA!
16) Grimness:
17) Surrender of Will: Probably doesn't directly apply
18) Hypocrisy: A possability on a small scale.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

My ex-SIL is a JW and my niece is currently one. What always shocked me about the JW culture is the amount of drinking that goes on. I have been to quite a few JW-infused events and there's a lot of alcohol served. Of course, I associate religion with abstinence, so I'm a bit skewed in that respect.

More than likely that just happen to be where you went or the perticular people that were hanging out - yeah, JWs have clicks too.

I know they like to have fun. I've been to a JW squaredance once. Everyone kept passing each other Watchtowers.

[DreadPirateRoberts]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Depending on the spin one puts on the claims, it wouldn't be all that difficult to claim just about any religion (and many other groups for that matter) as a "cult".

I'd always heard that the difference between a cult and a religion is 100 years.

[Alex]

There is no socializing outside of the organization and if there is its going to school or a Job. Everything else is with people in the organization. Camping was with them or family. No school activities, although I did do a play once - big surprise. I'm sure I could disect those experiances with how I am today, but we'll save that.

There is a lot of censorship. Naturally growing up, I got the brunt of this. Music was very selective. TV and Movies also. I rarely went to the movies and when I did it was with the group. My comic book collection barely survived and there were many casualties along the way. If you were reading it was one of thier books or magazines.

See, there is where I wonder what is coming from the top and what is just random local variation. Me and all the JW kids I knew in school freely associated with the other kids at school, participated in school activities (sports and such) and were generally just regular kids people thought were weird because we wouldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance or do birthday stuff.

As for censorship, there was never any real attempt to control what read or the music my sisters listened to (I had no interest in music myself). My first exposure to Garrison Keillor was when one of our elders brought over some Lake Wobegon tapes one night and we listened to them. And he and I frequently discussed the science fiction and fantasy I was reading with no condemnation.

But maybe I, somehow, ended up in a "liberal" Kingdom Hall (though my experiences at the three we attended at various times were all pretty similar).

Or, even then I was so strong-willed in my personal directions that I was oblivious to attempts to control them (similarly, I either never experienced peer pressure at school or was immune to the point of not noticing it).

[Disneyphile]

Originally Posted by Bornieo: Fully Loaded

I know they like to have fun. I've been to a JW squaredance once. Everyone kept passing each other Watchtowers.

I've never had a Watchtower before. Is it shaken, stirred, or blended? Sweet or dry?

[tracilicious]

I'll add my JW experience to the mix. Mine, Alex's, and Borneio's are all going to be somewhat different, so I'd like to sum up why I think that is. Alex wasn't born into the religion (you were six or seven, right Alex?), thus probably experienced less mind control than someone indoctrinated from birth. I believe he exited as a young teen, which leads me to believe that he hadn't absorbed a great deal of the cult mentallity. Borneio's experiences are more similar to mine, but some of the doctrine he stated is out of date (Borneio, will you remind me when you exited?).

I was raised in a very fundamentalist JW family, heavily indoctrinated from birth (I could explain even the most complicated JW dogma by age six), have put in time as a "pioneer" (someone who makes a commitment to putting in a high number of hours in their "field ministry" every month. In short, I was almost as JW as you can get. I was inactive for five years, meaning I only attended special events and didn't preach at all, but kept current on doctrine. We made our official exit exactly a year ago.

1) Internal Control: I would say extremely high both locally and organizationally. Local elders decide who gets forgive for sins, who gets kicked out, etc. Beyond that people are encouraged to bring any problem to their elders, who will then tell them what to do. People bring very very personal issues to the elders. If people bring an issue to the elders and reject their council, they face "disciplinary" action.

2) External Control:I don't think they influence the outside world much. There is a great deal of control over political and social behavior of members.

3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s): Very high. They don't claim to be infallible, but the do claim to be God's organization. Their literature is chock full of uncited quotes and facts. No one ever bothers to verify, but they all assume that it is accurate.

4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members: Members have complete trust in the organization. When the organization changes it's mind on something, people don't even blink. "Apostasy," or leaving the religion and actively believing that it's wrong, is the biggest sin to them.

5) Dogma: Very rigid.

6) Recruiting: Very high. 90% of the focus of their meetings in on recruitment.

7) Front Groups: There are several, but most JW's don't realize it. They use several publishing companies and law firms meant to look non-JW, but are actually under JW control. There are a few books that are supposed to be written about JW's from a non-JW perspective, but these are JW books printed through those publishing companies. Mostly those front groups are simply to serve the needs of the organization, not to influence the outside world.

8) Wealth: High emphasis on donation. Lots of wealth at the top, but like Alex said, it's well hidden.

9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups: Very high. Besides not allowing homosexuality, anal sex in general is forbidden. Oral sex was forbidden until the 80's when it became a "conscience matter," meaning, the society discourages it, and everyone does what they say. The newest restriction is no sex on your period. JW's also have a well-hidden molestation problem. Elders accused of child molestation are allowed to remain in power and the members aren't allowed to go to the police about it.

10) Sexual Favoritism: Elders need to be married men, but other than that, no.

11) Censorship: Tons. JW's aren't allowed to read "apostate" material at all. They're highly discouraged from reading any kind of bible history or criticisms not published by JW's.

12) Isolation: A great deal. I'm not sure when Alex left, but there are publications explicitly stating that JW's should avoid associating outside the faith. This is mentioned repeatedly at meetings as well. When family members and friends leave the faith, they are to be shunned.

13) Dropout Control: Pretty high, could be worse. Mostly the focus is on preventing, which they do by fear of shunning.

14) Violence: None that I know of. Unless you are talking emotional violence.

15) Paranoia: Pretty high. Like Alex said, they were actually persecuted. They are expecting a grand persecution right before Armageddon.

16) Grimness: Pretty humorless, but I've never seen it actively discouraged.

17) Surrender of Will: I'd say high. Members are to trust doctrines and leaders and not themselves. Constantly baraged with thoughts that Satan tricks people into doing things.

18) Hypocrisy: At the very top, this is high, but a bit too complicated for me to go into here. At the local level there is sometimes a certain amount of head-turning for elders and their families, but even that gets stopped usually.

I'm really interested in this subject right now. More on the recruitment, love bombing, etc. I'd love to hear of anyone's experience with other religions. Do we have any Mormon's here?

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

Yeah, your experiance seems closer to mine. I was brought in at birth - my parents divorced when I was about 22, if I recall correctly. I pretty much stopped participating at around 18-19 and like I said, my dad is an Elder so whenever I see him, somthing is always mentioned. (Bible quote, etc.)

[€uroMeinke]

Here's my take on LoT:

1) Internal Control: Admins, Moderators, founding members, yeah we're pretty much a benevolent dictatorship here.

2) External Control: Eh, I don't think we care much about this - except when it comes to filling a carousel at Disneyland, or sinking a boat.

3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s): I think we're pretty smart, but we still screw up from time to time - why there was this one April Fool's Day...

4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members: See above, I think the members are pretty smart too and can tell when we're blowing smoke.

5) Dogma: Hahahahahaha - Anarchy Now!

6) Recruiting: While we do try to bring in certain folks now and then that strike our fancy, I think we mostly snobby and exclusive in this regard. There are plenty folk we'd just rather not have.

7) Front Groups: Our secret societies shall remain secret, otherwise it wouldn't be much fun having them.

8) Wealth: We've got enough cash to keep things running for a 2 years I think - that's probably enough to buy us all a round of drinks if we decided to take the money and run.

9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups: While having our sex manipulated might be desired by some of us, I think there are sites better suited for that kind of activity

10) Sexual Favoritism: Sorry, I'm heterosexual and tend to prefer women, perhaps other members of our inner circle balance things out, but I'm afraid you're all stuck with my bias in that regard.

11) Censorship: I'd rather not do it, but to keep things accessible to certain workplaces we do filter naughty words and our ground rules would rather you not discuss illegal activities or child pornography

12) Isolation: Eh, we don't care

13) Dropout Control: We have checked in with people that haven't posted in awhile, but for the most part we're fine if you think we suck.

14) Violence: We have no desire to produce or obtain weapons of mass destruction

15) Paranoia: I do think we take some pleasure in feeding the paranoia of others

16) Grimness: I suppose if all your posts we critiques of the boards, we'd eventually have the "perhaps this isn't the place for you" conversation. But then we'd probably be making lots of jokes about you behind your back - so matter of perspective there.

17) Surrender of Will: I don't think any of us want to be responsible for anyone else - sorry, make your own decisions and deal.

18) Hypocrisy: Well, we're probably inconsistent in some of the things we do and decisions we make, so I guess you could call us hypocrites on occasion. But hey, that's what you get when you abandon dogma.

[Disneyphile]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

15) Paranoia: I do think we take some pleasure in feeding the paranoia of others.

And some of us don't even have to work at it! We have that power by merely existing. Bow to our superiority! Muwahahahaha.