The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 264

€uroMeinke · 10-11-2007, 05:33 PM

As one pundit I heard on NPR asked - "so when are we going to get around to apologizing for what we did to the Indians?"

I'd be happier if this actually had some action behind it

JWBear · 10-11-2007, 07:02 PM

I have yet to hear of one Democrat who thinks the surge is working. Can you kindly name your sources?

innerSpaceman · 10-11-2007, 07:24 PM

And are you, too, scaeagles, suggesting that Democratic elected officials to the House of Representatives and the United States Senate are seeking to deliberately cut off supply lines to our troops in wartime as a political tactic? In other words, accusing them of outright treason?

Alex · 10-11-2007, 07:49 PM

I have no idea what the intent is, but this bill has been going on so long (we discussed a version of it in one of my poli sci classes back in 1993) that I've no doubt that its presence is independent of any issues in Iraq.

But if introducing it for the goal of indirectly creating logistical problems in Iraq would be treason (and I wouldn't say that necessarily is since I have no doubt we'd get whatever supplies were needed into Iraq), then what is it if it came up without considering that possibility, were warned about the potential realpolitik repercussions and then decided anyway that a non-binding essentially meaningless declaration was worth that risk?

Personally, I think the word genocide is overused and doesn't really have the power it should have because of it. And both sides have valid points in the Turkey/Armenia case (though I tend to come down on the side of Armenia). In an era of total war (kicked off a decade earlier in South Africa and perfected by Hitler and the United States in WWII) how does one distinguish genocide from a straightforward war between two ethnically homogenous sides?

Everybody would go nuts if Congress passed a non-binding resolution calling Taiwan and independent country. Not because it is untrue but because of the inflammatory effect it would have on international relations. And I would say that the real world importance of officially recognizing the independence of the ROC is a lot more relevant and important than officially calling the Armenian slaughter from 90 ago genocide as opposed to unofficially calling it genocide.

Moonliner · 10-11-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

And are you, too, scaeagles, suggesting that Democratic elected officials to the House of Representatives and the United States Senate are seeking to deliberately cut off supply lines to our troops in wartime as a political tactic? In other words, accusing them of outright treason?

Yes, I think this is a deliberate act to cut off supply lines. Since these are the lawmakers themselves I don't know if you can make a case for treason.

However if a private citizen or member of the armed services pursued an action like this independently then I don't know what other word you could use.

It's also possible there is already a back room deal with Turkey to avoid a ban on US troops even in the event of passage of the resolution.

innerSpaceman · 10-11-2007, 08:02 PM

wow, Moonliner, WTF. That's far more out there than any of tinfoil hat stuff I've spouted on these and other boards.

I'm frelling astounded.

Moonliner · 10-11-2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

wow, Moonliner, WTF. That's far more out there than any of tinfoil hat stuff I've spouted on these and other boards.

I'm frelling astounded.

Look back over my postings, I'm not one that's given to Tinfoil'ery. Truth be told I generally just dip into these political discussions with a quick pithy quote (like the one that started this thread) and then duck back out.

It's fairly rare that I really get pissed of by the actions of politics but in this case I just cannot rationalize any other explanation for this resolution taking place NOW.

Yeah, the idea of the "back room deal" is perhaps Tinfoil at it's best but really I'm just expressing my frustration at what I see as an truly insane action on the part of our elected officials. Why? Why would they do this? I'm just grasping at straws hoping there is a logical explanation because I sure can't see it from here.

SacTown Chronic · 10-11-2007, 08:28 PM

What you mean "NOW", Moonliner? Our invasion and occupation of The Iraq has been going on for almost half a decade with no end in sight. How long should the politicos wait to pass their worthless resolution?

Are we at the stage of our empire where anything that pisses off our allies before our endless war on terror ends is treason?

Stop the bus, I want off.

Moonliner · 10-11-2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

What you mean "NOW", Moonliner? Our invasion and occupation of The Iraq has been going on for almost half a decade with no end in sight. How long should the politicos wait to pass their worthless resolution?

Are we at the stage of our empire where anything that pisses off our allies before our endless war on terror ends is treason?

Stop the bus, I want off.

It's the troops. You don't send them to war and then **** with their supply lines. This war is one of the worst political disasters this country has faced and I lay that directly on the shoulders of Bush/Cheney but as long as we have troops in country you have to properly support them.

There is no pressing reason to dredge this issue up now other than to put pressure on Bush to end the war. The cause is just but the ends do not justify the means.

scaeagles · 10-11-2007, 08:36 PM

There's a fine line between stupidity coupled with trying to gain political advantage and treason.

Would I call it treason? No. Would I call it reprehensible? Without a doubt. There is simply no other reason right now for the Foreign Affairs committee to take this up right now. Either it is intentional or the dem majority on this committee are complete imbiciles - a definite possibility.

Who cares when it was started? There is a point of common sense that says "it isn't a good time to deal with this" unless you want to the obvious reaction to take place. So either they are stupid or are attempting to harm the war effort.

10-11-2007, 05:33 PM	#2631
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	As one pundit I heard on NPR asked - "so when are we going to get around to apologizing for what we did to the Indians?" I'd be happier if this actually had some action behind it __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-11-2007, 07:02 PM	#2632
JWBear Worn Romantic Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Long Beach California Posts: 8,435	I have yet to hear of one Democrat who thinks the surge is working. Can you kindly name your sources? __________________ Unrestrained frivolity will lead to the downfall of modern society.
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10-11-2007, 07:24 PM	#2633
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	And are you, too, scaeagles, suggesting that Democratic elected officials to the House of Representatives and the United States Senate are seeking to deliberately cut off supply lines to our troops in wartime as a political tactic? In other words, accusing them of outright treason?
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10-11-2007, 07:49 PM	#2634
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I have no idea what the intent is, but this bill has been going on so long (we discussed a version of it in one of my poli sci classes back in 1993) that I've no doubt that its presence is independent of any issues in Iraq. But if introducing it for the goal of indirectly creating logistical problems in Iraq would be treason (and I wouldn't say that necessarily is since I have no doubt we'd get whatever supplies were needed into Iraq), then what is it if it came up without considering that possibility, were warned about the potential realpolitik repercussions and then decided anyway that a non-binding essentially meaningless declaration was worth that risk? Personally, I think the word genocide is overused and doesn't really have the power it should have because of it. And both sides have valid points in the Turkey/Armenia case (though I tend to come down on the side of Armenia). In an era of total war (kicked off a decade earlier in South Africa and perfected by Hitler and the United States in WWII) how does one distinguish genocide from a straightforward war between two ethnically homogenous sides? Everybody would go nuts if Congress passed a non-binding resolution calling Taiwan and independent country. Not because it is untrue but because of the inflammatory effect it would have on international relations. And I would say that the real world importance of officially recognizing the independence of the ROC is a lot more relevant and important than officially calling the Armenian slaughter from 90 ago genocide as opposed to unofficially calling it genocide.
	Submit to Quotes

10-11-2007, 08:02 PM	#2636
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	wow, Moonliner, WTF. That's far more out there than any of tinfoil hat stuff I've spouted on these and other boards. I'm frelling astounded.
	Submit to Quotes

10-11-2007, 08:28 PM	#2638
SacTown Chronic the myth of the dream Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,217	What you mean "NOW", Moonliner? Our invasion and occupation of The Iraq has been going on for almost half a decade with no end in sight. How long should the politicos wait to pass their worthless resolution? Are we at the stage of our empire where anything that pisses off our allies before our endless war on terror ends is treason? Stop the bus, I want off.
	Submit to Quotes

10-11-2007, 08:36 PM	#2640
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	There's a fine line between stupidity coupled with trying to gain political advantage and treason. Would I call it treason? No. Would I call it reprehensible? Without a doubt. There is simply no other reason right now for the Foreign Affairs committee to take this up right now. Either it is intentional or the dem majority on this committee are complete imbiciles - a definite possibility. Who cares when it was started? There is a point of common sense that says "it isn't a good time to deal with this" unless you want to the obvious reaction to take place. So either they are stupid or are attempting to harm the war effort.
	Submit to Quotes