The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by BDBopper

To be honest I am really confused as to the background of the Founding Fathers because I've heard and seen so much conflicting information. I don't blame Mike for getting it wrong I think I'd get it wrong myself. Mike's not the only one to make that gaffe. Maybe that was taught to him in seminary. I was taught in college that all the Founding Fathers were atheists.

I don't think any were actually athiests but there were many "diests".

As for most being ministers...well, only one was an active minister at the time of signing but several studied to be ministers(Sam Adams, John Adams, Robert Sherman, and William Williams to name just a few).

On a side note durring my little investigation into our founding fathers I discovered that Josia Bartlett was married to his first counsin........so the famed President Bartlett was a product of inbreeding

[scaeagles]

There are many, many quotes attributed to the founders that would seem to allude to many of them leaning toward a Christian faith of their own, or at least adherence to a Christian philosophy - far too many to list, but a couple of them.....

John Adams - "I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."

Alexander Hamilton (On July 12, 1804 at his death) “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

John Jay - “ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

Thomas Jefferson - "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison - “ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

The list of such quotes is virtually endless. I would believe that from such quotes it is not unreasonable to assert that Christianity was the faith of a large portion of the founding fathers and that it came into play in the documents they were creating (though some of the quotes are indeed dated after the Constitution was written).

[Ghoulish Delight]

"Leaning toward a Christian faith" is a far cry from "most of them are clergymen".

[innerSpaceman]

I love the quote from Alexander Hamilton on his death bed. If only I had a dollar for every lapsed Christian that returned to the flock at that final point of life, for the religion that promises absolution of all sins if you ask pretty please with your final breath.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

The list of such quotes is virtually endless. I would believe that from such quotes it is not unreasonable to assert that Christianity was the faith of a large portion of the founding fathers and that it came into play in the documents they were creating (though some of the quotes are indeed dated after the Constitution was written).

There is no doubt that the framing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were informed by their Christian beliefs. However there is equally small doubt that they went through great pains to diminish the presence of actual religious language and doctrine in the final document. It's precisely the preponderance of personal religious rhetoric from the framers in contrast to the complete dearth of it in the Constitution that indicates a very conscious effort to keep religious belief as a personal guide to upholding law, rather than an in-built component of the law.

And of course let us not forget Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli which, in part, states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;", read before congress, ratified unanimously, signed by President John Adams.

[scaeagles]

I agree, certainly, GC, ISM, and GD. I don't know why Huckabee would say that (I didn't hear it), GC. I agree ISM, about the death bed comment, it was just one I happened to grab of many from Hamilton.

The Treaty of Tripoli of 1797, however, is a different matter and context is everything.


As I understand it, Barbary priates had a tnedency to attack ships and enslave sailors from "Christian Nations". In this particular version of the treaty, it was deemed necessary to specifically include the wording to appease an Islamic nation.

However, after the treaty, there was no reduction in the activity of the piracy and enslavement, and Tripoli itself was demanding increased tribute from naval vessels. When this was refused by Jefferson (in 1801), Tripoli declared war on the US, and the US Navy set up a blockade of Tripoli. After Tripoli was taken by US Marines and some local rebels, the leaders there signed the new 1805 Treaty of Tripoli, which did not contain the wording. The weakened Tripoli no longer needed to be appeased.

So, yeah, the wording was in there, but it was there for a specific reason.

Sorry for the boring history.

[Scrooge McSam]

So that leaves us where?

Non christian?

or

so-called Christian nation lying about our origins


You know... there really is nothing new under the sun.

[scaeagles]

I think the founders clearly applied their faiths in the founding documents of the country, including that concept of free will (and the freedom to worship or not worship as we so choose). We are not a "Christian nation" because we do not have a state established religion.

[BDBopper]

Not to change the subject or anything but look out, Huckabee's coming!

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c..._tracking_poll

Yesterday he was in double digits for the first time at 10 percent. Today he is 12% and just passed Romney nationally!

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

We are not a "Christian nation" because we do not have a state established religion.

We are not a Christian nation because we do not have a national religion. Because the First Amendment, as written, bound only Congress, the founders arguably contemplated the establishment of state churches since they knew how to limit state power when they wanted to but chose not to do so in this instance.

Not that's a good thing.