No matter your politics, watch this.

[sleepyjeff]

Wow.....in just 30 years we have gone from debating whether or not a bomb that could kill a million people but leave all the buildings intact was immoral or not to whether or not waterboarding is torture.....

Say what you want but I think that's progress.

[Alex]

Not really. Considering that 30 years ago there was no question that waterboarding was torture. That sounds like regression.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

Wow.....in just 30 years we have gone from debating whether or not a bomb that could kill a million people but leave all the buildings intact was immoral or not to whether or not waterboarding is torture.....

Say what you want but I think that's progress.

Wow, non sequitur much?

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Wow, non sequitur much?

Sorry...guess I should have filled that in a little. This whole thing just struck me as somewhat silly....the end of America and this is 1930's Germany all over again and these are the darkest times theme just made me think that people may have forgotten what things were really like not so long ago.

I suppose my post would have been better suited to a debate on whether or not we should have a missile defense in Europe but sometimes I can't control what strikes me as apropro....even if it really isn't

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

Sorry...guess I should have filled that in a little. This whole thing just struck me as somewhat silly....the end of America and this is 1930's Germany all over again and these are the darkest times theme just made me think that people may have forgotten what things were really like not so long ago.

"It could be worse" is not a valid argument in my eyes for allowing abuse of executive powers to go unchallenged. And, as stated above, it's not about the particulars of whether waterboarding is torture or not. It's about the lies, manipulation, and blatant efforts to silence dissenting voices.

I also think people have forgotten the past, but, as alluded to by Olberman's nod to Murrow, what they've forgotten is how easily the door to loss of freedoms can be opened with the guise of protection from an evil idea. It took someone with the courage of Murrow to wake everybody up to it then. Unfortunately Olbermann is not afforded to stature that Murrow had (unfortunate in the sense that it means he won't have as much impact, not in the sense that I think he should have the same stature as Murrow), nor was his commentary as much of a personal risk as Murrow's was, so there is little hope that the any significant change in social attitude will come of it. But I applaud him for helping the process of chipping away the facade of fear in hopes that someone will eventually hit the right spot and create an actual crack.

[blueerica]

Hrmm... I guess I didn't see it as a non sequitur, so much as I saw it as a musing on a theme.

I do, however, agree with Alex. It's torture. Agree with it or not, call it what it is and move on. I'm still giggling over Boss' post, imagining someone water boarding behind a speed boat.

So, so wrong... *giggle*

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by blueerica

Hrmm... I guess I didn't see it as a non sequitur, so much as I saw it as a musing on a theme.

I very much see it as a non sequitor. Discussions of the use of waterboarding have no bearing on our stance as a society on use of nuclear weapons, and vice versa. I fail to see how condoning torture and suppressing open and honest debate by labeling dissent as tantamount to treason can be passed off as "progress" just because we aren't debating about some other topic that's unrelated to this one. Especially in light of the fact that said other topic is hardly even a closed topic. Note, for example, the reaction to Obama daring to say he wouldn't use nuclear weapons against Iran or Pakistan. Oh yeah, we've clearly progressed beyond that. Sure.

[Alex]

Not to mention that even if it isn't a non sequiter it still doesn't make sense. The morality of the neutron bomb has hardly been settled, it has simply been mooted by the fact that nobody has one (though four or five countries could build one if they wanted). Up until we dismantled our last ones at the end of the Bush I presidency they were still very much a topic of debate.

Kind of like saying that in Children of Men abortion is no longer a topic of debate so obviously progress has been made.

[Not Afraid]

I'm so immune to most political rhetoric that I hear nothing but "blah blah blah waterboarding". I'm sort of somewhere in the zone of NM and BR but I have a picture that comes to mind.

[Snowflake]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

I'm so immune to most political rhetoric that I hear nothing but "blah blah blah waterboarding". I'm sort of somewhere in the zone of NM and BR but I have a picture that comes to mind.

That's you right, NA?