No matter your politics, watch this.

[JWBear]

Where are John Sheridan and the Rangers when you need them? <sigh>

[Jazzman]

I don't think sleepyjeff was making an argument so much as he was simply remarking about an anecdotal historical parallel and I personally think his example is perfectly relevant. Imagine two civilizations side by side in the present day. One is embroiled in debate about whether or not nuking their neighbor is cool, while the other's biggest social conundrum is whether pouring water on somebody's face is too harsh. Who would frighten you the most, and who would you consider the "most civilized?" It's all relative, of course, but that's the thinking I came away with from his post.

My sentiments on the waterboarding debate are thus; is it torture? Regardless of my own views on it, if a guy like John McCain, who lived through horrific daily torture for six full years says that it's torture, then it's torture. The things he has lived through make waterboarding look like a leisurely trip through Small World, so I defer humbly to his expertice on the matter.

So, accepting that it is torture, do I believe that it is ever warranted? Yes, but only, and I stress only, in extremely dire, "there's a nuke going off in seven minutes and Osama bin Hidingit knows where it is" situations. If all we're looking for is "so-and-so lives in the second cave to the left and hangs out with a guy who knows a guy who goes to mosque with the sister of the janitor who cleans the office of Osama's lawyer" type info, then waterboarding is a bit extreme, as in "facing charges for doing it" extreme.

It's a great movie scene and a bit of a cliche now, but the courtroom scene in "A Few Good Men" comes to mind. We do need people out there doing the necessary things we won't or can't bring ourselves to do in order to keep us, and the free people of the world, safe. If some murderous extremist gets dunked a couple of times in order to save the lives of a bunch of innocent people, well, as horrible as it is he put himself in harm's way. Just as long as it isn't overused or applied inappropriately, it's another one of those neccesary evils and sadly, that's just life.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Jazzman

I don't think sleepyjeff was making an argument so much as he was simply remarking about an anecdotal historical parallel and I personally think his example is perfectly relevant. Imagine two civilizations side by side in the present day. One is embroiled in debate about whether or not nuking their neighbor is cool, while the other's biggest social conundrum is whether pouring water on somebody's face is too harsh. Who would frighten you the most, and who would you consider the "most civilized?" It's all relative, of course, but that's the thinking I came away with from his post.

This line of reasoning is like saying that because we have murderers to deal with, we shouldn't be horrified at things like dog fighting or spouse abuse. Bullsht. A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity. A cover up is a cover up. A presidency that fires those that oppose their agenda and actually says those that think differently are not patriots...yes, this stuff is still vile and worthy of horror and action, even though our president isn't Hitler or Pol Pot.

I wonder what line a presidency will have to cross in order to get people really angry. This is just the stuff we're actually hearing about! I can't even imagine what else is going on.

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

While that is true of the Republicans it does not explain away the inactions of the Majority of Dems. If it is their job to provide a check against a runaway WhiteHouse one must come to one of two conclusions: A) They are negligent in their duty or B) The WhiteHouse isn't running away.

Agreed. I do hope history judges the Democrats harshly for being silent during these atrocious years. This proves to me without a shadow of a doubt that the system is only as good as the people who work within it. They had the ability to disrupt things and they did not.

Too bad nobody votes in America anymore. This would be a time ripe for destroying the 2 party system if anyone was paying attention.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

Too bad nobody votes in America anymore. This would be a time ripe for destroying the 2 party system if anyone was paying attention.

I kinda think the problem is we don't really have two parties anymore....more like two sides to one party.

I voted today btw.....No on two Statewide measures.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

This line of reasoning is like saying that because we have murderers to deal with, we shouldn't be horrified at things like dog fighting or spouse abuse. Bullsht.

Which world would you rather live in though....the one where murder wasn't a big concern anymore so everyone was focused on dog fighting and spouse abuse or the one where murder was such a big problem that no one paid much attention to things like dog fighting and spouse abuse?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

Which world would you rather live in though....the one where murder wasn't a big concern anymore so everyone was focused on dog fighting and spouse abuse or the one where murder was such a big problem that no one paid much attention to things like dog fighting and spouse abuse?

Which world would you rather live in, one where there's an open theoretical debate over horrible possibility that hasn't happened and that most people in power are trying to prevent, or one where horrible things ARE happening and the people approving them and carrying them out are doing everything in their power to pretend it's not happening?

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Which world would you rather live in, one where there's an open theoretical debate over horrible possibility that hasn't happened and that most people in power are trying to prevent, or one where horrible things ARE happening and the people approving them and carrying them out are doing everything in their power to pretend it's not happening?

I see your point.

[Jazzman]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

This line of reasoning is like saying that because we have murderers to deal with, we shouldn't be horrified at things like dog fighting or spouse abuse.

Not at all. It is simply stating that things are not simply black and white, or bad is bad and good is good. To use your example, dog fighting and spousal abuse are two very bad things, but they pale in comparison to murder. Take Michael Vick. He fought dogs and very much deserves to be punished, but as severely as a murderer? Hardly.

No one is arguing that one is good simply because the other is worse. It is simply the case that one bad is more extreme than the other and therefore of bigger concern, and if the main current point of concern is the lesser of the two then things are not as horribly bad as in the past.

[Alex]

Except that the sleepyjeff's post didn't do that:

Wow.....in just 30 years we have gone from debating whether or not a bomb that could kill a million people but leave all the buildings intact was immoral or not to whether or not waterboarding is torture.....

Say what you want but I think that's progress.

We've gone from a point in time where waterboarding being torture is a settled issue and the use of neutron bombs is up for debate to one where waterboarding being torture is apparently an unsettled issue and the use of neutron bombs is up for debate.

The U.S. no longer has nuetron bombs not because it became the official policy of our country that their use is untenable but because they were viewed as no longer having any deterrent value following the end of the Cold War and therefore were low hanging fruit in the arms reduction treaties. It is still official policy that use of neutron bombs is still warranted.

Also, it is a non sequitur to the extent that it contributes absolutely nothing. Anything bitched about now you could say "isn't it amazing how in just 140 years we've gone from killing each other over slavery to discussing the minutiae of torture.

To point out that at some point in the past things have been worse has no relevancy to whether the present is bad. Also, it presupposes that the theoretical use of neutron bombs is a greater evil than the actual use of waterboarding, which is not necessarily the case.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Alex

Except that the sleepyjeff's post didn't do that:

sleepyjeff is suffucient.....I dropped the the ages ago.

As to your point I will concede that my observence does offer little to the actual argument at hand but still assert that we have progressed in a positive direction by the very fact that what we get all in a huff about these days is, in my most humble opinion, pretty tame compared to what we were concerned with just a generation or two ago.