Smoking in France a thing of the past?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Private businesses had decades to declare themselves smoke free. Instead they decided to make "smoking sections" that didn't stop everyone from breathing smoke. I don't think there was such a thing as a smoke free establishment (except hospitals??) before the laws came in.

When i was in high school I included smoking bans in a speech I gave about government controlling our lives. I was very against these bans. But in my travels to places that do not have the bans, I realize how things used to be. It is severely gross to be in that haze the entire time one is indoors at airports and restaurants, to smell the ancient stink permeating the curtains and furniture.

I realize that businesses will not do it themselves, and that non-smokers won't make a big enough deal out of it to push businesses into it. I don't say "will" meaning I'm guessing - like I said, places that don't have the law don't end up with non-smoking establishments. Making a law is the only way to stop this nastiness from happening, because people and businesses are too stupid to do it themselves. The laws, IMHO, are an improvement on the entire situation, including forces smokers to be more polite about their habit.

I'm mostly a libertarian, but this is one arena that I have changed my mind on. We're too dumb to take care of ourselves, sometimes.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

We're too dumb to take care of ourselves, sometimes.

What you say makes sense, and like I said, i realize I'm on the losing side of this argument. But this last line scares me. There are so many unhealthy things people do that this philosophy will continue to permeate every area of our lives. In the nanny state we live in, particularly if we move toward a government health care system, every unhealthful thing will be taxed out of existance because every time someone gets clogged arteries it costs the tax payers money. Why not have mandatory exercise programs and shut down McDonalds (or put enough taxes on a Big Mac to make it $7)?

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't think when warning labels went on cigarettes and domestic flights were made non smoking that anyone was imagining banning smoking in bars.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

But this last line scares me.

Scares me too, hence the speech at 18. I also included seat belt and helmet laws in there. Thing is, since then, my feelings have changed.

It gets messy when you talk about something as serious as helmets. I've seen numerous studies about how when the helmet laws are put in place, deaths go drastically down, and when you take them off, they go drastically up.

Here's one I just found in a Google search.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration conducted the first study, and it found that in the three years following Florida’s decision to repeal its mandatory helmet law in 2000 that there were 933 motorcyclists killed. The number of Florida motorcycle deaths increased 81 percent, an increase from the 515 bikers killed from 1997 to 1999.

So that's basically 400 extra people dead in 3 years. An ugly, serious fact. Flip the law switch one way, they live, flip it the other, they die. You can say that they're Darwinesque casualties, but they're still human beings with families, parents, children. They just made one bad decision one fateful day.

Yes, these laws can be brought to extremes, with all of us being forcefed prozac and kept in rubber rooms, but there's gray area in between.

As this refers to smoking, though, there's less of a case because of the less direct dangers of smoking. The stupid part to me is that this is classified under health threats, while in my personal subjective opinion, I'm more annoyed about the stink and needing to cough.

[3894]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't think when warning labels went on cigarettes and domestic flights were made non smoking that anyone was imagining banning smoking in bars.

I was! And in restaurants, lobbies of buildings, public bathrooms ...

Cigarette smoke is a migraine trigger for me. I walk through or by cigarette smoke and I need an Imitrex stat! My health insurer picks up the $20 per tab. Pre-Imitrex, I suffered and lost productive time. And all for someone else's freedom to fire up a cigarette.

I hate cigarettes. Ban 'em to the ends of the galaxy!

As for cigarettes somehow being central to French culture, it is to laugh.

[Pirate Bill]

Originally Posted by 3894

As for cigarettes somehow being central to French culture, it is to laugh.

Just an aside and not picking nits, I couldn't help but laugh at seeing this avatar next to this quote. I can't tell exactly what she's holding in the picture but it looks to me like one of those long cigarette holders. (Or is she chewing a piece of straw? - Which would, arguably, make the picture all the more sexy.)

Originally Posted by mousepod

So I'm conflicted, ambivalent, and but ultimately secretly happy with the current state of no-smoking laws.

Thank you for exactly summing up my feelings on the issue so well.

I'm a non-smoker. Have been all my life. I can't stand the smell of smoke. It doesn't affect me physically other than make me gag a little. But I'd rather breath in someone's fart than smell a cigarette. At least the fart smell won't permeate my clothes and hair and make me reek all day. But I do hate the idea of taking away people's freedoms to do stupid things. I do stupid things that I know I shouldn't do and are bad for me, but never would I want a ban on them. Does my stupidity affect others? Not nearly as much as smoking does, but I also fear the slippery slope as other's have mentioned.

It's funny. Having visited Disneyland many times before smoking bans or designated smoking areas, I would smell certain tobacco scents on occasion and actually like it. I now associate some tobacco smells to Disneyland. Even years and years later. Is tobacco central to a visit to Disneyland? No, but somehow I have created an association that is actually a fond memory.

[NirvanaMan]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

What you say makes sense, and like I said, i realize I'm on the losing side of this argument. But this last line scares me.

I concur. While I completely agree with CP's statement, I hardly find it governments responsibility to protect the stupid by penalizing personal choice. People are stupid, let them choose their own demise. I know a lot of bikers that prefer to ride without a helmet. I think they are idiots, but shouldn't it be their choice (so long as our dollars are not paying for their healthcare).

Now, this clearly crosses into a gray area when your personal choice impacts the health and comfort of others. That is where I begin to have a moral dilemma. Government = bad. However, I do enjoy the benefits of coming home from a bar smoke free. It is odd now to go back to places where they do not have these laws. However, in principal I am still opposed. It is simply because I enjoy the side benefit that I do not complain too much about the government imposition in our lives.

I suppose the argument could be made regarding the choice of venue. Whereas an airplane or restaurant is something that people should be free to use and enjoy without putting their health at risk, isn't a bar a place of vice anyway? People are hardly going their out of need, hunger or to live a more healthy lifestyle.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

It is simply because I enjoy the side benefit that I do not complain too much about the government imposition in our lives.

Yes, and that is a valid reason to support it. In fact, that's the only reason we should support governmental impositions on freedom, because the specific imposition benefits us.