College for all - right?

[tracilicious]

I don't think our grandkids will look at our Bachelor's and be amazed, I think there will be a completely different system in place. I think we will start seeing a great deal more specialized, non-university training. People working in communications or human resources, for example, might not be required to have a full bachelor's degree, but might be required to have higher education in subjects pertinent to their field.

[tracilicious]

And one more thing, at the community college I attend, you have to test into English 101. I already functioned at a college level in this area, so I had no problem getting in. If I had scored lower, I would have been put in a lower level class and had to work up to 101. I thought all community colleges were like this.

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

And one more thing, at the community college I attend, you have to test into English 101. I already functioned at a college level in this area, so I had no problem getting in. If I had scored lower, I would have been put in a lower level class and had to work up to 101. I thought all community colleges were like this.

Most are - it's the matriculation testing. Most universities are too. Not all though - some of the accelerated programs don't require it.

I wish I knew what school the article was written about.

Originally Posted by tracilicious

I don't think our grandkids will look at our Bachelor's and be amazed, I think there will be a completely different system in place. I think we will start seeing a great deal more specialized, non-university training. People working in communications or human resources, for example, might not be required to have a full bachelor's degree, but might be required to have higher education in subjects pertinent to their field.

Doesn't Europe do something like this? They focus more on the field then overall knowledge once the student hits university level. They also groom students for a specific type of further education early on based upon their compententcies and interests.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

And one more thing, at the community college I attend, you have to test into English 101. I already functioned at a college level in this area, so I had no problem getting in. If I had scored lower, I would have been put in a lower level class and had to work up to 101. I thought all community colleges were like this.

Yep, my best friend, a Cuban immigrant, didn't score high enough in English on his entry test so he started college taking English 99..........and he still graduated a year before me

[Morrigoon]

I think we need to elevate vocational training to a higher status in our society. It helps prepare non-college bound people for solid careers and is undeservedly looked down upon. Not everyone is meant for college, and the pressure for the to go diminishes the value for those who are.

Frankly, I think any high school students who declare themselves not to be college bound ought to graduate school with a professional certification in SOMETHING.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Prudence

Except that I don't think that so many people ARE educated. I think that the social promotion trend is so strong that a bachelor's degree now *is* relatively worth less than it was - not because so many have it, but because so many of those that have it don't deserve it.

The more it becomes a requirement, the more people want to obtain one, and the more schools are tempted to increase their business by making sure people get them. Maybe I am just a huge snob, but frankly I think many of the people receiving degrees don't deserve them. I don't think they are actually educated at the level a college degree SHOULD reflect. It doesn't mean that I think they're stupid, just that they don't have the particular knowledge set that a college degree should represent.

The question becomes: how MUCH less worthy is the degree? I would like to think that the decrease is minimal, but I am not dealing with people fresh out of college. Yes, there will be people who manage to get out of college without an education/skill set that reflects the degree. But I truly do hope the number is negligible.

Further, I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but here is California, the universities are being inundated with applications - there is no shortage of potential students. Most universities are turning away a very high quantity of applicants; the last time I checked, my alma mater (Cal Poly - San Luis Obispo) had four times as many applicants as openings. With that in mind, I question whether schools are lowering standards just to increase sales.

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

I think we need to elevate vocational training to a higher status in our society. It helps prepare non-college bound people for solid careers and is undeservedly looked down upon. Not everyone is meant for college, and the pressure for the to go diminishes the value for those who are.

Frankly, I think any high school students who declare themselves not to be college bound ought to graduate school with a professional certification in SOMETHING.

Again, speaking only for what I know (the printing industry), vocational schools are looked on as a valuable training ground - the students from those institutions are highly sought after in many of the craft positions (press operators, pre-press operators, etc.).

In what little hiring I have been involved in, I look at what the person has done to make themselves better and more valuable to an employer. Have they taken extended training classes? Attending industry seminars? If I were hiring someone out of school, I would pay particular attention to what their extra curricular activities were.

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Again, speaking only for what I know (the printing industry), vocational schools are looked on as a valuable training ground - the students from those institutions are highly sought after in many of the craft positions (press operators, pre-press operators, etc.).

In what little hiring I have been involved in, I look at what the person has done to make themselves better and more valuable to an employer. Have they taken extended training classes? Attending industry seminars? If I were hiring someone out of school, I would pay particular attention to what their extra curricular activities were.

That's just it. Vocational training is good. But we don't impress that upon high school students. We act as if they either go to college or they're worthless losers. I think we do them a disservice by not convincing them otherwise.

[Gemini Cricket]

Well, it's like that line from that old Bing Crosby tune:

We all can't be college graduates
Some people need to be our hookers and pimp dogs.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

That's just it. Vocational training is good. But we don't impress that upon high school students. We act as if they either go to college or they're worthless losers. I think we do them a disservice by not convincing them otherwise.

That is a double-edged sword. If a high-school counselor told a student that they were not good enough for college, and that they should consider a vocational program, then they run the risk of a parent bringing down the wrath: "How dare you say that my child is too stupid for college."

Also, I don't know if voc. ed. ISN'T promoted in high school. I know that when I was in school (amusingly, the same high school as you - although I was a year or two before you ), voc. ed. WAS a viable option. It wasn't discussed with me (and I suspect not you either), but it was a viable option. There was a least SOME literature and I had a couple of friends who did discuss it. Maybe things have changed (I am an old fogey after all) but I believe it is discussed.

But the down side of voc. ed. is that it is more limiting than a college degree. While one may be able to get a higher paying job fresh out of a voc. ed certification program than someone getting a BA or BS degree, their future options are much more limited: they've effectively been trained for one task. Whereas someone with a Bachelor's degree has many more options.

I am often surprised that almost 20 years after graduating, that my Cal Poly education is still a factor for some people.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

That is a double-edged sword. If a high-school counselor told a student that they were not good enough for college, and that they should consider a vocational program, then they run the risk of a parent bringing down the wrath: "How dare you say that my child is too stupid for college."

True, but that kind of presumes that the parent is involved. A lot of people in this country don't have parents involved - and in many cases, those are the people who can't read, don't graduate, aren't encouraged to go to trade school and end up in financial crisis. They need the motivation for trade school as much as anyone does.

But then, this relates to the crisis in our public schools K-12. I just finished reading Freakonomics and was appalled to find out about teachers who fill in the bubbles on their students' standardized tests to come out looking like better teachers. No Child Left Behind is dreadful, and is not the way to help students truly learn. Pushing all students to pass the exact same test, pushing teachers to teach to the test, does nothing but limit the accelerated learners and steamroll the slower ones. Alternative education can do wonderful things for slower learners (and I don't mean "special ed" - I mean slower learners) as well as faster learners: not everyone has the same learning capabilities (or styles.)