College for all - right?

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

That's just it. Vocational training is good. But we don't impress that upon high school students. We act as if they either go to college or they're worthless losers. I think we do them a disservice by not convincing them otherwise.

That is a double-edged sword. If a high-school counselor told a student that they were not good enough for college, and that they should consider a vocational program, then they run the risk of a parent bringing down the wrath: "How dare you say that my child is too stupid for college."

Also, I don't know if voc. ed. ISN'T promoted in high school. I know that when I was in school (amusingly, the same high school as you - although I was a year or two before you ), voc. ed. WAS a viable option. It wasn't discussed with me (and I suspect not you either), but it was a viable option. There was a least SOME literature and I had a couple of friends who did discuss it. Maybe things have changed (I am an old fogey after all) but I believe it is discussed.

But the down side of voc. ed. is that it is more limiting than a college degree. While one may be able to get a higher paying job fresh out of a voc. ed certification program than someone getting a BA or BS degree, their future options are much more limited: they've effectively been trained for one task. Whereas someone with a Bachelor's degree has many more options.

I am often surprised that almost 20 years after graduating, that my Cal Poly education is still a factor for some people.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

That is a double-edged sword. If a high-school counselor told a student that they were not good enough for college, and that they should consider a vocational program, then they run the risk of a parent bringing down the wrath: "How dare you say that my child is too stupid for college."

True, but that kind of presumes that the parent is involved. A lot of people in this country don't have parents involved - and in many cases, those are the people who can't read, don't graduate, aren't encouraged to go to trade school and end up in financial crisis. They need the motivation for trade school as much as anyone does.

But then, this relates to the crisis in our public schools K-12. I just finished reading Freakonomics and was appalled to find out about teachers who fill in the bubbles on their students' standardized tests to come out looking like better teachers. No Child Left Behind is dreadful, and is not the way to help students truly learn. Pushing all students to pass the exact same test, pushing teachers to teach to the test, does nothing but limit the accelerated learners and steamroll the slower ones. Alternative education can do wonderful things for slower learners (and I don't mean "special ed" - I mean slower learners) as well as faster learners: not everyone has the same learning capabilities (or styles.)

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Whereas someone with a Bachelor's degree has many more options.

I'm not sure this is true. Students have to take a bunch of classes within their major, but other than that the classes are academic, not practical. Unless talking about history or renaissance literature is a skill, A graduate with a BA is really only trained for one thing.

[3894]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Unless talking about history or renaissance literature is a skill, A graduate with a BA is really only trained for one thing.

The B.A. says you can prioritize, deal with a certain amount of stress, finish tasks in a timely manner, and write coherently - all good job skills.

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I almost think that the real problem here is that higher education has become too vocational

Very few can afford an education purely for education's sake. I did have a colleague in Comparative Literature who taught "Cocktail Party Lit". The basic - and stated - goal of this survey course was to give students conversational gambits at the corporate parties they'd be attending after graduation. To my constant amazement, this course always filled.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by 3894

I did have a colleague in Comparative Literature who taught "Cocktail Party Lit". The basic - and stated - goal of this survey course was to give students conversational gambits at the corporate parties they'd be attending after graduation. To my constant amazement, this course always filled.

I actually find this strangely encouraging...

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by 3894

I did have a colleague in Comparative Literature who taught "Cocktail Party Lit". The basic - and stated - goal of this survey course was to give students conversational gambits at the corporate parties they'd be attending after graduation. To my constant amazement, this course always filled.

I'd love to take that course. It would be awesome to know how to hold this level of conversation without needing to worry about screwing up somehow.

[3894]

Originally Posted by CoasterMatt

I bought a PhD off the interwebs.

My Ph.D. is the real thing. Until eight years ago, I was a college professor (yes, tenured and everything. I got so burned out I was crispy. Time to do something else.). I am from an academic family and I am married to a newly-retired professor and former chair.

I'm happy to try to answer any questions about the issues brought up in the article.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by 3894

I am from an academic family and I am married to a newly-retired professor and former chair.

Sounds like a Monty Python bit.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

That is a double-edged sword. If a high-school counselor told a student that they were not good enough for college, and that they should consider a vocational program, then they run the risk of a parent bringing down the wrath: "How dare you say that my child is too stupid for college."

And therein lies the issue. The only reason they'd have that reaction is because society has managed to define college as "better than" trade school. That's the articles real point, imo. "Not cut out for college" should not be de-facto "stupid".