Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull [use spoiler tags, please]

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

The only way out is to do what they did with Superman Returns, with a pinch of Casino Royale. Don't make "sequels" per se. Take Mutt and send him back in time to 1935. Don't explain it, just start over. It's the same character but different, it's the same time but different, alternate universe style. Otherwise, it's not going to work (and even then it won't work because Spielberg and Lucas will be involved).

Oh pleeezzee! The only way that would work is if there was some sort of inter-dimensional rift or trans-dimensional ship hanging around and there is no way.... Errr....

Oh. Please God no.

Still I don't know why you would say that about the series not working:

Indiana Jones and the 18 min gap.

Indiana Jones and the Grassy Knoll

Indiana Jones: Tunguska

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I loved it. I will probably love watching it again. Despite its flaws (and I agreed with the bulk of ism's assessment of those flaws), I enjoyed it immensely. Whatever The Temple of Doom had going for it (Short Round!), the story didn't interest me that much and I HATED Kate Capshaw. And I didn't hate her just because Karen Allen brought moxie to the love interest role and I adored her in Raiders (and Starman - hah!), but that did play a part.

And I really, really enjoyed The Last Crusade, and not just because I love it when Indy fights the Nazis, though I DO love it when Indy fights the Nazis. Heh. I'm pretty sure I enjoyed The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull as much as the 3rd Indy film, and I'm also pretty sure it's because it made me feel like a giddy elementary school kid while watching it. I could have done without some of the CGI effects (Tarzan, to name one), but didn't mind others (the waterfalls). But I loved the plot. I liked that it was made very clear at the beginning that this was the direction they were going to take, so I went with it. And it seemed perfectly tailored for an Indy flick, though I wish they showed less at the end. Too much information.

I especially loved the Red Scare / 50's paranoia sci-fi combo.

No, it cannot touch the goodness Raiders of the Lost Ark. Considering that Raiders might be my favorite movie next to Safety Last!, few movies can for me. But I was happy to have a 4th installment, and wasn't disappointed by what we were given.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Um, by the way, there was no cartoon action in Raiders of the sort on display in every one of the subsequent Indy movies. ... it was NOT cartoony on the order of Road Runner in the least

I must offer a partial retraction. There was one throw-away gag of total cartoonity in Raiders. During the attack on Indy and Marion in the streets of Cairo, Indy is about to get sword-stabbed, but jumps out of the way just in time ... leaving another atacker to be skewered instead. When they cut back to the two Arabs, it's shown that the stabbing apparently happened so fast that two mangos were also skewered in mid-air.

It's completely Road Runner. Not done to excess in that movie ... but it's there.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I do believe that a bad sequel has the power to hurt the perception of the original.

I used to feel that way as well. But sequels have become so ubiquitous in society ... and along with that I've noticed a general understanding that sequels are usually pale shadows to the great original film which financially spawned them.

So I think the tables have turned. Now I'm of the opinion that crappy sequels serve mostly to highlight the brillance of the film they so poorly reflect.

But I see your point. Both effects are probably happening.

Originally Posted by Eliza Hodgkins 1812

Considering that Raiders might be my favorite movie next to ...

Is it possible I could fall even more in love with EH1812???

[Alex]

I especially loved the Red Scare / 50's paranoia sci-fi combo.

I would have loved to see this exhibited to a greater degree, but after the first 20 minutes did "50's paranoia" ever get even a nod? And same for the red scare. Other than having a Russian accent, there was nothing Russian or Communist about the threat and since the movie quickly moved away from anything resembling modern culture there was no Red Scare stuff either.

But after 10 days of living with this movie in my mind I've pretty thoroughly shed what enjoyment I had while watching it (which barely survived the closing credits anyway) so it is probably best that I just put it in a mental box and forget about it like I have National Treasure 2 (though this was much better than National Treasure 2; which might be like saying that drinking cat pee is much better than eating cat poop).

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Alex

Other than having a Russian accent, there was nothing Russian or Communist about the threat and since the movie quickly moved away from anything resembling modern culture there was no Red Scare stuff either.

Well, the thirteen crystal skeletons were referred to as making up a "collective" which I took to imply that they had red sympathies.

[Alex]

Good point. I retract my comments.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't exactly know what the Nazi threat was after the first 10 minutes of Raiders. That's not the best example, because the Nazi threat and how that threat would never be a threat were all wrapped up in the really cool McGuffin that pervaded the movie.

I guess a better example is the Nazis in The Last Crusade. They were a threat because they continued to harass and threaten our heroes, not because they were going to invade Poland, or even because Adolph Hitler might become immortal.


The Russians in Indy 4 were less threatening, but they were still Indy's adversaries. I don't think it was any more necessary for them to be spreading communism along the Amazon than it was for the Nazis in Last Crusade to fill the armoured Tank with deadly gas once Brody and Professer Jones were captively onboard.

[Alex]

No, but the actions by the Nazis in the in those films were placed within a context of why they were a larger threat to society success for them would make them even worse. And Indiana Jones preventing them from getting the object of their desire was given relevance beyond simply the adventure at hand. No, the Nazi threat wasn't explicit throughout the movies but they were implicit and gave things more weight.

While I admit that some attempt was made at accomplishing this at the beginning of Crystal Skull I feel they failed to establish it ("oh, I'm being blacklisted, I guess I'll take a train trip...le sigh") and ultimately it was just two groups of people chasing the same object.

[innerSpaceman]

But by that token, perhaps the adversaries who were the biggest threats were the Thuggies, because they were really nasty to our hero characters, despite having little potential effect on the outside world.

And I think the Nazis in Raiders were shown to be bigger baddies because they were prone to torture Marion Ravenwood. I guess, by extension, that reminded audiences of what butchers the Nazis were. And even though Stalin was arguably a bigger butcher than Hitler, the Nazis just have a much more horrible rep that --- yes, absolutely make them a better movie villain than the Ruskes.

But, being that they had to deal with Indy's age, I think they were wise to fast-forward to the Soviets ... and perhaps it would have been better to make them nastier ... but I think they played to their stereotypes just as "faithfully" as earlier Indy films played to Nazi stereotypes.

In any event, I think it's the threat of danger to the characters we like that makes a villain villainous ... and not so much the danger that group of villains poses to society at large.

I'll admit, Indy 4 comes in dead last by both standards.



But now at least we're getting at weaknesses that I think hold more water than whether the action was believeable.

[€uroMeinke]

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.