Ta Ta Jesse Helms

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

I've no appreciation for the man, but I'm going to change JW's quote to illustrate the circular logic of finger-pointing about personal moral codes.



We're never going to change anyone's minds with this argument - it's a deadlock where both sides believes the other is wrong. If repeating loudly that Helms was TEH EVIL and you're glad he's dead makes you feel better today, then have at. But I don't think it's going to help the world understand anything differently.

Someone who thinks like Helms might say that, but it's a terrible analogy. Gays having gay sex hurts no one. The things Helms and is ilk said and did (and continue to say and do) are very damaging. I find comparing the two to be very insulting.

I said before that I do not celebrate his death. I'm not grave dancing. But I refuse to stop speaking out against the evils he did just because he's now dead. Death gives no one a free pass to redemption.

It is not hatred to oppose that which is wrong. I do not feel hatred for him, only disgust.

And yes, I do believe he was evil. He had a black and hate filled soul. The world is far better off without his ilk.

I do feel a great sadness that some here feel they must defend the man.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Oh, my. I'm certainly not defending the man. Not whatsoever. All along I've said I have always been angered by the many harmful things he's said. And that still is completely true.

What I am saying is certainly not in defense of him. And I similarly believe that there is nothing harmful about gay sex. But what I have said (several times now) I think that calling someone evil because their moral code is different than yours isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It will ruin any chance of proving to them, directly and through personal interaction and example, that what they believe is untrue.

When people believe, firmly, in what a religious text has to say... well, there's a lot of things I could say about that, but doing so would be hurtful to the people in my life to whom religion brings much strength and comfort. What I will say is that they will likely believe it until something or someone real and in front of them changes their minds. All of us has the power to be that person - to change people's minds through positive action and honesty and kindness.

You discounting someone's religious beliefs (and in many cases, homophobia stems from a religious belief) is doing exactly what they're terrified of. They're terrified of their own little world coming crumbling down. But your love for your partner isn't going to crumble anyone's world - you know that, I know that. Anyone who sees it, really sees it, knows it too.

I'm not saying that homophobia deserves to be excused; I'm saying quite the opposite. I'm saying we need to change this world for the better, by showing people that love is love, in any form it takes. Honestly - because I believe in a higher power - I believe that love is divine. And I've spent a lot of time trying to show people that relationships like MBC's, for instance, or yours, are every bit as beautiful and divine as mine is. But discounting someone's religious beliefs - shutting them down before you even get the chance to share your love with them - isn't actually going to accomplish that.

Nowhere am I asking you to stop speaking out against the ways he harmed our society. But if any of us are going to make a difference in this conservative war against your rights, it's not going to be by telling each other how evil he was. Because that's never going to convince the legions of frightened (and in my opinion, dreadfully misguided) people who are still alive, who believe what he believed. Because, in that manner of circular logic, you're telling them they're evil, they're telling you you're evil. Deadlock. If we sit down with that uncle who's homophobic, that coworker who doesn't understand, that child who needs to know the truth... THAT is how we can make people understand.

I don't celebrate him. I don't feel hatred. I don't even feel disgust. I feel a deep pity for the man, who lived his life without really knowing the full beauty of it. What a sad, limited person, who never got to experience the peace and love that is possible. How terrible that he never made a personal connection that helped him change his mind.

[Gemini Cricket]

When people like Helms, powered by his sort of thinking whether it be of the Bible or not, are using their influence to cause harm to anyone I can't sit there and say that spreading love and feeling sorry for them is effective.

The more the gay community shies away or backs down from people willing to demonize them, the more these same people will keep doing it.
There is solid proof that Helms was wrong in his thinking. All gays are despicable and bad. Blacks are less equal than whites. etc. That is enough to call him a flawed individual for thinking that way.

People tell me I should be tolerant of people like him because that what his religion teaches him. I say I don't need to be tolerant of anyone who justifies harming an entire group of people and then frees himself/herself of accountability because 'God told them so'. Don't hide behind a Bible after you just hit me with it, take ownership of your stupidity-inspired hate.

People like Helms use gays as a political football. It's maddening. Exploiting a non-issue to retain his job, political influence and the adoration of idiots like him. From everything from a kiss on a TV commercial, to a movie about true love between two men, to a famous comedienne coming out on TV and letting the world know she's okay with herself... All of these sweet and wonderfully positive things turned into something ugly for political benefit. I for one am fed up with it. ie. There are amazingly tragic things going on in our world and our president used gay marriage as his focus at one point. Ignore the war, the economy, Darfur and let's talk about homosexuals who want to be equal in the eyes of their state, their country.

I also see the frustration of many gay couples when the gay community and others expect them to be some sort of role model for the world. C'mon, Jim and George, show the world how normal two gay guys can be. Look at them, they're normal just like you straights. Isn't that great? Lots of gays and lesbians just want to be quiet people living their lives. It isn't their responsibility to be some sort of diplomats or counselors to straight or even closeted close-minded people.

Tolerance towards something that is biological like skin color, sexual orientation, etc should be a no-brainer. It's lack of education on the parts of people like Helms, Dobson, Phelps that make them wrong on their stance. I mean, listen to these guys talk, uneducated pricks. Hey, I'm no freakin' scholar, but thank goodness I have the brains to accept people for how they were born.

Being ignorant, uneducated, ill-informed is a choice. If you flaunt that choice in my face and try to pass it off as fact or devine providence, I am going to call you on it. And if people try to pass you of as a saint for doing it after death, I'm still going to call you on it for as long as I am alive.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I also see the frustration of many gay couples when the gay community and others expect them to be some sort of role model for the world. C'mon, Jim and George, show the world how normal two gay guys can be. Look at them, they're normal just like you straights. Isn't that great? Lots of gays and lesbians just want to be quiet people living their lives. It isn't their responsibility to be some sort of diplomats or counselors to straight or even closeted close-minded people.

Oh, I can imagine the frustration. But how will their minds ever change about the validity of gay people, gay marriage, gay rights... if we don't help them see it? Lots of black people wanted to live quiet lives AND have equal rights. But when it's time for social upheaval, if you want it to happen, you have to make it happen yourselves. I know - frustrating.

For the record, I don't think you have to be tolerant of his religious beliefs. Because - I've been ruminating on this for a few days now... there's a big difference between treating someone with respect and ACTUALLY respecting what they believe. I don't actually respect the opinion that homosexuality is immoral. But when discussing it with someone who does, I try to show them respect. Because I do understand that people's beliefs differ, and their beliefs are a part of them. It's often the only way to get through to someone who is ignorant. And yes, while they're choosing ignorance, a lot of them haven't been challenged to see things differently. (I know this was the case with my mother.) It's up to us to challenge them, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn't ever tell you to back down! On the contrary, I call us all to action.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Well said, LSPE.

[wendybeth]

I respect Billy Graham a great deal- I don't agree with many of his beliefs, but I do like the man. I will be saddened by his death. Helms was a despicable man, not just because of his beliefs but because of how he acted upon them and the pain he caused others as a result. I was not sad at his passing, and I did not, do not and never will have one speck of respect for him, alive or dead. I have a very hard time respecting anyone who is so willfully ignorant and so abusive with his power. The more people show that this is not acceptable (even to the point of refusing the usual post-mortem sanctification process) the more it will sink in to such individuals that they are not relevant in today's society, unless it is as some sort of pariah.

[JWBear]

I do not respect any religious belief that promotes hatred and discrimination - hiding behind your religion to excuse your bigotry is despicable. I refuse to give a shred of respect to someone who does.

No one has a right to be respected by everyone, LSPE. Nor am I required to have respect for everyone - especially the likes of Senator Helms.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

I've tried to stay out of this topic, not out of fear of repercussion, but simply because, although I fall more towards the unpopular side of the argument, I do understand and respect both sides.

I'm both a gay man and someone who literally despises any form of racism. Therefore, it should be obvious that I hold plenty of contempt for the way that Helms led his life. I truly believe the world would have been a better place without him or his ilk. I also believe that it is now a better place in his absence.

But I don't think that hatred is such a good thing to let manifest within. And I try very hard to never hate anyone. That doesn't mean that there aren't people that are deserving of it, and it doesn't mean that I am signaling approval of them by refusing to hate them. I detest just about everything that this man every stood for. I don't think that can be misconstrued as approval in any way, shape or form. I have zero good feelings for the man.

And while I think it is perfectly valid to discuss the life of this man, to condemn it (as I do) and to make very clear that his ideals are simply not acceptable, I just don't think that it does much good to, in essence, lower oneself to his level of hatred, just because it is cathartic.

I would much rather use my time to change someone's belief who is still alive and walking among us, because there isn't much I can do about ol' Jesse. I would rather live by example and try to have a positive impact. Because, I think that, in the long run, those efforts serve the cause better.

Slowly but surely, people are changing their attitudes towards homosexuality and racism. Slowly but surely, it becomes less acceptable by society with each year and with each generation. And the simple fact is that many of those who still harbor their antiquated views are dying out. And I can't help but think that this progress has been helped more by dialog than by calling a dead old bigot every name in the book.

And before anyone suggests that I just called him names, the fact remains: he was old, he is dead, and he made it painfully clear that he was a bigot. So that isn't really name-calling in my opinion, just a statement of fact.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

And please note that I never once told anyone else what they should or shouldn't feel. I'm simply commenting on why I feel the way that I do.

[JWBear]

Again, MBC, I do not hate Jesse helms. To find someone despicable, and to feel not a shred of sadness at their death, is not the same as hatred.

I'm really getting tired of the same response, over and over again.