Do You Believe?

[innerSpaceman]

You mean the realm of "belief?"

[Ghoulish Delight]

Sure. I just can't wrap my head around believing something for which there's no evidence. Why chose one form of prayer over any other, then, if there's no explanation for why, or even if, your chosen form would work?

I don't begrudge anyone their belief, but people seem to like to try to convince me that "Brain activity has physical effects, therefore prayer works" is a logical progression. All I'm saying is that it's not. If you believe it, fine, but don't try to pass it off as logical and scientific.

[Alex]

I'm a bit confused by this:

As an example, think of an asteroid that's millions of lightyears away, discovered to be heading generally towards earth. That asteroid is well out of a range where its physical properties have a direct effect on human behavior, yet it would surely alter human behavior. But that's very different from "the asteroid chose to alter human behavior."

There is a physical interaction with the asteroid (photons from source A bounce off Asteroid B and are intercepted by Humanity C) and physical properties of the asteroid (it reflects photons at a sufficient level for detection) that caused the change here on Earth. Thus it is astronomy. If it affected human behavior without that physical interaction then it would be astrology.

(Though I'd posit that an asteroid light years from earth would cause no change in human behavior beyond noting it was there, after all it would be millennia before it got here.)

But yeah, otherwise I agree with you. One of the great mysteries of faith (to me) is why it is at all satisfying to believe in something without evidence of any type (obviously it is to billions of people, I just didn't get that gene).

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I don't begrudge anyone their belief, but people seem to like to try to convince me that "Brain activity has physical effects, therefore prayer works" is a logical progression. All I'm saying is that it's not. If you believe it, fine, but don't try to pass it off as logical and scientific.

Just want to add that this wasn't directed at anyone here. I know everyone here, like me, is just stating, not debating, their beliefs. I had in mind things like What the Bleep do we Know when I wrote that.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm a bit confused by this:



There is a physical interaction with the asteroid (photons from source A bounce off Asteroid B and are intercepted by Humanity C) and physical properties of the asteroid (it reflects photons at a sufficient level for detection) that caused the change here on Earth. Thus it is astronomy. If it affected human behavior without that physical interaction then it would be astrology.

(Though I'd posit that an asteroid light years from earth would cause no change in human behavior beyond noting it was there, after all it would be millennia before it got here.)

But yeah, otherwise I agree with you. One of the great mysteries of faith (to me) is why it is at all satisfying to believe in something without evidence of any type (obviously it is to billions of people, I just didn't get that gene).

Yeah, I've been going over that paragraph in my head since I wrote it. 1) yeah, yeah, not light years. I meant far away, but close enough that we're keeping our astronomical eye on it. 2) I didn't mean no physical interaction. I meant it as an example of physical interaction that is not on a "push lever A for result B". Tiny amounts of photons with very little mass or momentum causing huge-scale changes in human behavior (like the writing of a really bad Bruce Willis/Ben Afleck vehicle). Just establishing that yes, I agree there might be mechanisms beyond moving muscles and bones that can alter the course of the world.

[Alex]

I do find it interesting that the OP seemed to be asking about conspiratorial beliefs and it quickly morphed into metaphysical belief.

[Not Afraid]

The Secret!

[innerSpaceman]

GD, I'm having a hard time wrappping my head around your definition of belief such that it only applies to things for which there is evidence.

Perhaps we're not using the same meaning of the word ... but it seems to me that belief in that for which there is NO evidence is the essence of belief.


It's very easy for me to "believe" in gravity. But what kind of belief is that? A great big D'UH. I believe in God ... I have ZERO evidence for that belief.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

GD, I'm having a hard time wrappping my head around your definition of belief such that it only applies to things for which there is evidence.

I didn't say that. I have no problem with people believing things that don't have evidence (though I can't bring myself to do it). I have a problem with people trying to convince me that something that is a matter of belief is actually a matter of science.

"I believe prayer works." I have no problem with that statement, though I disagree.

"I believe prayer works because of the nature of quantum particles," I have a problem with.

[innerSpaceman]

Ah, gotcha.


I believe in ghosts because I saw one, and observed evidence of others.

I believe in the innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald because of my personal, hardly exhaustive investigation.

I believe in the power of thought to affect the universe because of revelation under altered and improved states of consciousness.

I believe in God simply because I choose to, and despite the urgings of my forebears - against whom I would normally rebel.


It's a mish-mash.