The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 363

scaeagles · 08-28-2008, 06:10 AM

Whatever you think of abortion (and this isn't intended to be a debate on that issue whatsoever), it should be pretty clear that the Catholic church has very specifically made it clear that the official doctrine of the church is that life begins at conception and abortion is not acceptable. So how is it that Pelosi, who claims to be a practicing Catholic, can go on Meet the Press and declare that the Catholic Church doesn't know what they believe about abortion?

Biden was brought on, in part, to go after the Catholic vote. With Pelosi doing this, that would seem to have a directly negative effect on that aspect of the selection. Plus, it's just stupid. The Catholic church couldn't be more clear on their doctrine.

Alex · 08-28-2008, 07:18 AM

I don't know, I think she's right. The leadership of the church may be pretty unified but if you view "Catholic Church" as not only the leadership by all of the people in it as well, then the American Catholic Church is deeply divided on the issue.

More than half of Americans who view themselves as Catholic label themselves as pro-choice according to some polls (the number is less in other polls but they tend to be limiting themselves to more devout Catholics). 70% say that they have no obligation to vote against a pro-choice candidate.

There are plenty of examples of pro-choice Democratic Catholic politicians who have no problem at all dominating among the Catholic vote (Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi being three obvious examples).

So I don't know how much it hurts among the Catholic laity. And it might help elsewhere if the bishops gets their collective panties in a twist. Americans generally hate it when church leaders try to overtly sway the political process...so long as the leader isn't from their own church.

scaeagles · 08-28-2008, 07:46 AM

Perhaps if she had directly referred to the members of the church being divided I could buy that, but when you say "the church doesn't know" I interpret that as meaing the official doctrine of the church.

innerSpaceman · 08-28-2008, 08:23 AM

Thanks for your interpretation. Alex gave his. They're different. How about that? Maybe Pelosi has her own, too, seeing as ... technically at least ... she's a human being.

scaeagles · 08-28-2008, 08:30 AM

Right. I was explaining why I thought differently than he did.

Apparently now explaining ones self is not acceptable? Did I do something wrong or offensive or say Alex was stupid? I don't think there's even one thing CLOSE to offensive or confrontational in what I posted. Unless I'm not allowed to call a politican stupid. If that's the case, then pretty much everyone here is guilty of being offensive.

Ghoulish Delight · 08-28-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Perhaps if she had directly referred to the members of the church being divided I could buy that, but when you say "the church doesn't know" I interpret that as meaing the official doctrine of the church.

If I said, "America doesn't know where it stands on abortion," is that equally inaccurate. Afterall, we have very specific laws and a Supreme Court ruling that make pretty clear what the country's official stance is. As an American I should know that, there's no way I should imply that America doesn't know where it stands.

"The Church" is the people. Without its members, there is no church, there is no church leadership, there is no Pope. Yes, it is obvious what the official stance of chruch doctrine is. So obvious in fact, that it should equally obvious that there's no way Pelosi meant anything OTHER than "the whole of the Catholic people". You're either accusing her of being so stupid that she doesn't actually know what the official Catholic stance is, or you're purposely being obtuse to try to shine a bad light on her.

scaeagles · 08-28-2008, 08:47 AM

Well, in that case I would guess that you would regard all of the Catrholic officials being critical of her as being obtuse as well. If so, that's fine.

Ghoulish Delight · 08-28-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Well, in that case I would guess that you would regard all of the Catrholic officials being critical of her as being obtuse as well. If so, that's fine.

Catholic officials obtuse?! Stop the presses!

Ghoulish Delight · 08-28-2008, 08:55 AM

Reality check - she knew darn well that she would stir things up with that, and the people who are pretending to be stirred up know darn well what she meant by it. It's been about 2000 years and the back and forth between "The Church" and its constituency ain't nothing new. Her use of "The Church" to refer to the fact that the opinions of the general population of Catholics is shorthand for, "The Pope and doctrine may have these rules, but try as they might they do seem to hold sway over their members on this issue, so perhaps it's time to take a look at that and adjust to reality instead of sticking to doctrine for doctrine's sake." But that's a mouthful. Yes, it's a purposeful slap in the face to church leadership, speaking to the large, and growing, population of people who do not agree with some church dogma but still identify with the church.

scaeagles · 08-28-2008, 09:06 AM

Goodness knows Pelosi would never say a mouthful....she was on Meet the Press, rather designed for politicians to say a mouthful.

Reality check - Pelosi has no desire to stir up Catholics when they are trying to secure a large portion of the Catholic vote, which is one thing Biden was certianly selected for, and Obama certainly doesn't want her to.

08-28-2008, 06:10 AM	#3621
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Whatever you think of abortion (and this isn't intended to be a debate on that issue whatsoever), it should be pretty clear that the Catholic church has very specifically made it clear that the official doctrine of the church is that life begins at conception and abortion is not acceptable. So how is it that Pelosi, who claims to be a practicing Catholic, can go on Meet the Press and declare that the Catholic Church doesn't know what they believe about abortion? Biden was brought on, in part, to go after the Catholic vote. With Pelosi doing this, that would seem to have a directly negative effect on that aspect of the selection. Plus, it's just stupid. The Catholic church couldn't be more clear on their doctrine.
	Submit to Quotes

08-28-2008, 07:18 AM	#3622
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I don't know, I think she's right. The leadership of the church may be pretty unified but if you view "Catholic Church" as not only the leadership by all of the people in it as well, then the American Catholic Church is deeply divided on the issue. More than half of Americans who view themselves as Catholic label themselves as pro-choice according to some polls (the number is less in other polls but they tend to be limiting themselves to more devout Catholics). 70% say that they have no obligation to vote against a pro-choice candidate. There are plenty of examples of pro-choice Democratic Catholic politicians who have no problem at all dominating among the Catholic vote (Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi being three obvious examples). So I don't know how much it hurts among the Catholic laity. And it might help elsewhere if the bishops gets their collective panties in a twist. Americans generally hate it when church leaders try to overtly sway the political process...so long as the leader isn't from their own church.
	Submit to Quotes

08-28-2008, 07:46 AM	#3623
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Perhaps if she had directly referred to the members of the church being divided I could buy that, but when you say "the church doesn't know" I interpret that as meaing the official doctrine of the church.
	Submit to Quotes

08-28-2008, 08:23 AM	#3624
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Thanks for your interpretation. Alex gave his. They're different. How about that? Maybe Pelosi has her own, too, seeing as ... technically at least ... she's a human being.
	Submit to Quotes

08-28-2008, 08:30 AM	#3625
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Right. I was explaining why I thought differently than he did. Apparently now explaining ones self is not acceptable? Did I do something wrong or offensive or say Alex was stupid? I don't think there's even one thing CLOSE to offensive or confrontational in what I posted. Unless I'm not allowed to call a politican stupid. If that's the case, then pretty much everyone here is guilty of being offensive.
	Submit to Quotes

08-28-2008, 08:47 AM	#3627
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Well, in that case I would guess that you would regard all of the Catrholic officials being critical of her as being obtuse as well. If so, that's fine.
	Submit to Quotes

08-28-2008, 08:55 AM	#3629
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Reality check - she knew darn well that she would stir things up with that, and the people who are pretending to be stirred up know darn well what she meant by it. It's been about 2000 years and the back and forth between "The Church" and its constituency ain't nothing new. Her use of "The Church" to refer to the fact that the opinions of the general population of Catholics is shorthand for, "The Pope and doctrine may have these rules, but try as they might they do seem to hold sway over their members on this issue, so perhaps it's time to take a look at that and adjust to reality instead of sticking to doctrine for doctrine's sake." But that's a mouthful. Yes, it's a purposeful slap in the face to church leadership, speaking to the large, and growing, population of people who do not agree with some church dogma but still identify with the church. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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08-28-2008, 09:06 AM	#3630
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Goodness knows Pelosi would never say a mouthful....she was on Meet the Press, rather designed for politicians to say a mouthful. Reality check - Pelosi has no desire to stir up Catholics when they are trying to secure a large portion of the Catholic vote, which is one thing Biden was certianly selected for, and Obama certainly doesn't want her to.
	Submit to Quotes